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Some female circ/FGM questions

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I've heard it said that FGM can't be compared with male circumcision because:

a) Female circ is not usually done in infancy
b) It's hard to remove just a clitoral hood and do it very accurately on a female infant

So what I wondered is does any country routine circ baby girls at birth and remove just the clitoral hood?
post #2 of 18
I believe that in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Brunei, female circ often consists only of removal of the clitoral hood, or simply a nick in the clitoral hood. I believe that this is often, though not always, done early in infancy.

I actually found a video once showing one of these procedures being done on a 6 week old girl. I think it got pulled off of youtube. It did look considerably less involved and less painful than any male version.

Actually, I just found this interesting story on the subject. http://www.cirp.org/news/smh01-13-04/
post #3 of 18
This is an interesting topic to me. One of the logical fallacies here is that because FGM is "worse", then somehow this makes circ "okay". I mean, to take an extreme example, it's worse to cut off someone's entire arm than to cut off just their hand, but that doesn't mean it's okay to cut off their hand!
post #4 of 18
I was born in Indonesia. I was cir'ed. If I remember correctly, they do it a few weeks after the baby girl was born. And Crunchy Frog has the right information; they cut a little bit of the hood or just nick it so you'll have less sensation.

Not everyone does the female circ in these countries. I would say about 30% of the population practice it.

BTW, this is usually done by midwives. The hospitals or doctors don't do this, at least not that I know of.
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
This is an interesting topic to me. One of the logical fallacies here is that because FGM is "worse", then somehow this makes circ "okay". I mean, to take an extreme example, it's worse to cut off someone's entire arm than to cut off just their hand, but that doesn't mean it's okay to cut off their hand!
I agree. The logic of: x is worse than y, so y is therefore okay to do. And what about all those men who lost their penises or parts of their glans to a botched circ? Where does that leave them?
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooks97 View Post
I was born in Indonesia. I was cir'ed. If I remember correctly, they do it a few weeks after the baby girl was born. And Crunchy Frog has the right information; they cut a little bit of the hood or just nick it so you'll have less sensation.

Not everyone does the female circ in these countries. I would say about 30% of the population practice it.

BTW, this is usually done by midwives. The hospitals or doctors don't do this, at least not that I know of.
Is there some kind of cultural, geographic, or religious subgroup that does this? What I'm getting at is, what leads the 30% to circ girls? Was it something that used to be done by a majority and is fading out? This just seems like a practise that, from everything I understand about sociology and social psychology, would not be stable at 30% of the population unless it was the majority of a subgroup (like a religious sect or a regional thing).
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
Is there some kind of cultural, geographic, or religious subgroup that does this? What I'm getting at is, what leads the 30% to circ girls? Was it something that used to be done by a majority and is fading out? This just seems like a practise that, from everything I understand about sociology and social psychology, would not be stable at 30% of the population unless it was the majority of a subgroup (like a religious sect or a regional thing).

According to this article I found, the rates are closer to the high 90's, and it is becoming increasingly medicalised, as in performed in hospitals as part of the birth package.

I have also read that in many cases the cutting is so minor that the woman, or even a doctor, would not be able to even tell that something had been done.

Americans tend to want to believe that all FGC is the really horrific type that removes everything and sews the girl up to a pinhole opening. This is actually the minority case, and there are actually types that are a good deal less severe than what is done to boys in this culture.

Americans tend to like to view things in black and white, and this sort of blurring of the lines is not particularly welcome in American discourse on this subject.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
"I understand that a girl who is not circumcised would not have clean genitals after she urinates and sometimes that can cause cervical cancer," he says.
*facepalm* (we need a smiley for that)
How can a sterile liquid cause cancer?!? Is this what they teach in Indonesian medical schools?!?
post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minarai View Post
*facepalm* (we need a smiley for that)
How can a sterile liquid cause cancer?!? Is this what they teach in Indonesian medical schools?!?
Well, hey, they say that intact men can't keep clean well enough and that leads to cancer. Sounds like a similar argument. Same song, second verse.
post #10 of 18
Hanny Lightfood Klein has written a good deal on female circumicsion. I'd suggest her books.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
According to this article I found, the rates are closer to the high 90's, and it is becoming increasingly medicalised, as in performed in hospitals as part of the birth package.
Is it really that high now? I have left the region for 15 years since I came here to study and married an American. I am way behind on things like this from Indonesia.

I can tell you these; from my experience, I wasn't sewn up until only a pinhole was all that's left and it is not dampening my sex life. I am whole minus the tiny piece of skin.

I think the female cir in this region is different from the fmg we hear happening in Africa or some other area.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooks97 View Post
Is it really that high now? I have left the region for 15 years since I came here to study and married an American. I am way behind on things like this from Indonesia.

I can tell you these; from my experience, I wasn't sewn up until only a pinhole was all that's left and it is not dampening my sex life. I am whole minus the tiny piece of skin.

I think the female cir in this region is different from the fmg we hear happening in Africa or some other area.
It sounds like it is very different. Still, to be fair, just like circed men who say they aren't missing anything, you can't really be sure...right?
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerDad View Post
It sounds like it is very different. Still, to be fair, just like circed men who say they aren't missing anything, you can't really be sure...right?
My thought on this is how can you miss something that you've never had to begin with? Why dwell on it?
post #14 of 18
Interesting... I wasn't aware of this specific practice. I was however aware of the FGM going on in other parts, but not of this practice of snipping the clitoral hood.

I guess the outcome would be desensitizing the clitoris by removing it's protective hood?
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam1980 View Post
Interesting... I wasn't aware of this specific practice. I was however aware of the FGM going on in other parts, but not of this practice of snipping the clitoral hood.

I guess the outcome would be desensitizing the clitoris by removing it's protective hood?

My understanding is that this is the most common form of FGM.
post #16 of 18
This chart shows how similar they actually are

http://www.boystoo.com/fgm&mgm.htm
post #17 of 18
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooks97 View Post
My thought on this is how can you miss something that you've never had to begin with? Why dwell on it?
But this is the trickiest part of this whole issue, and this applies just as well to men who were circed at birth. On the one hand, on the micro scale, you're absolutely right--for the individual who can't go back and change things, they don't know anything different and as you say "why dwell on it"? But on the macro scale, the "why dwell on it?" attitude is probably the most powerful form of social inertia that keeps the practise of RIC continuing year after year, generation after generation. Do you see what I mean?
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