Disappointed about mixed ages

[jnh896]

DD is in her first year of primary and seems to be doing very well. Her classroom is only 20 kids, and most of those are 3-4 year olds. I guess this is partially a product of the economy where kids couldn't afford to stay in for the 3 year cycle.

My concern is that the older kids in the class seem to be annoyed by the younger ones. I didn't expect that all the kids would all get along or sing "Kumbaya" all day. I certainly want her to learn how to manage conflict. And, be free to choose who she gets close to and who she doesn't. And vice versa - if another kids doesn't want to be friends with DD, that's their right too.

But, I guess I did expect more kindness and peace and manners based on the Montessori philosophy. And, I did have an expectation (maybe mistaken) that the older kids would "help" the little kids and show them the way through the classroom and the materials. And that they would do it cheerfully and willingly.

DD has come home and said things like, "So-and-so was mean to me." After it happened more than 3 times, I asked the classroom assistant about what might be going on. She said that she didn't think that DD was having any trouble, but their were some of the older girls in the class who had a lot of drama going on. OMG - I was hoping to avoid the whole "mean girls" thing, expecially at this young age.

Something happened yesterday that sent me over the edge. My DD is very friendly and says hi to everyone and wants to give everyone a hug. When I picked her up from school, she ran over to an older girl in her classroom to give her a hug good-bye. This little girl literally got up out of her seat and starting running away from DD with another little girl (who happens to be the school owner's daughter) yelling, "Run! Here she comes!"

I'm not so much worried about DD being bullied, because she's vocal and not afraid to speak up for herself. But, I could see DD being "that kid" who runs to the teacher everyone time something doesn't go her way. I want her to be confident to ask adults for help when she needs it, yet there's a fine line there before you become a tattletale or a whiner, KWIM? DD is also very persistent (and an only child) so when she wants something, she wants it NOW. Her teacher said she has really progressed in learning to wait for materials, being patient, taking her turn, etc.

I certainly wanted DD to learn from the older kids, but I was hoping to postpone the cliques and meanness that kids can get into at this stage in life.
Maybe that was naive? Or could DD just have a class of drama queens?

I've tried to talk with her about things like "Not everyone wants a hug" and "If someone says no (to any request of yours) then you must respect their choice without quibbling." Which, of course, her response is always "why?" and then I get stuck as to what to say. I really didn't want her happy view that everyone is her friend to get shattered just yet. (Keep in mind I'm not talking about strangers or potential predators...I'm talking about her fellow classmates with whom she interacts everyday.)

How should I address this with her teacher?

If you've made it this far, thanks for listening. Thanks for any insights!

[b_light]

On the hug thing and getting stuck with answering why, here's we handle similar situations. (and my son is one who frequently doesn't want hugs from others, but is very friendly...he just needs space).

When my son wants to do something with a peer (not usually a hug, but sometimes holding hands, so I'll use that example), I encourage him to ask first. "Ask Carter if he'd like to hold your hand first". Then I help him "read" the response if it's nonverbal. "well, he didn't answer (or turned his head, etc, etc), that might mean no, why don't we give him some space"?

I don't know very much about the mean girl thing yet (and, for now, I only have a boy), so take thus with a grain of salt: I think kids at that age often seem "mean" but are simply pointing out differences or attempting to stand up for themselves (running away from a hug). How would you like your daughter to respond to another child who wants to give her a hug and won't back off? I tell my son to say, "no thanks", and if the child keeps coming to walk away (before this advice he used to hit). I can see how in a group situation this could get silly quick when two of the older girls don't want hugs. But, I don't necesarily see it as "mean" or bad hearted. Or at least, that's my take.

[Koloe]

My DD was in a preschool with 2.5 yo to 4 yo last year (no kindergarten) and this year I moved her to the public Charter School and it has 4 & 5 yo. I don't recall much drama last year, though I did see some 4-yo being clicky when they got off to themselves a bit. But this year - I'm seeing much more drama and actually hearing about it from my DD.

I'm beginning to think part of it's an age thing - three-year-olds could care less, but 4-year-olds start getting more into it. I think more adult supervision helps reduce that kind of problem, I know this year there is much less adult supervision in my DD's classroom than last year. My child also rides the bus home and it sounds like there is drama on the preschool bus. And it seems to be the girls that are having the drama.

Not that any of this helps you, other than to let you know you are not alone.

[jnh896]

Thanks Koloe and B_Light. You gave me good insights.

I neglected to say that I have seen it with other smaller kids in DD's classroom, not just her. We have had two parent education events where we go to the classroom and observe them doing their work. This is where I first noticed that the older kids seemed to be bothered by the younger ones. I know it takes a while for the youngest ones to learn how the classroom works and I guess I would be annoyed too if someone was always interupting me or asking me to help them do something, etc. It just makes me wonder how "hands off" the teacher is in letting them work out conflict. To me, there's a difference between intervening with a solution so that everyone can learn from it and just letting them "work it out."

For example, during the workshop I saw one of the little ones go start to wash a table that another child was working on. The older kid kept saying, "don't" and "go away" but the younger one kept scrubbing. I was waiting for the teacher's reaction but she didn't seem to notice that it was going on. (In her defense, the room was full of parents and kids so it wasn't a normal day.) But, that got me thinking about how it is handled as a general rule. I didn't know if I should step in or not because I didn't know what the appropriate response would be and in this case, it wasn't my child.

But yesterday it was my child and Mama Bear wanted to protect her so it felt like mean-spiritedness to me.
But, DD does need to learn boundaries and when to back off so I do want to use the teaching moment.

[spedteacher30]

That was something we really struggled with as well last year when our son was the youngest in his class. Things in general seem to be going better this year than last year. We would see things that set our teeth on edge, but didn't bother him at all. (like bossy girls, or boys with their subtle put-downs or inside jokes that were really intended to hurt/ostracize the littlest ones).

We decided that if it wasn't bothering DS, we needed to not put our feelings about it on to him, so we let it go. We would talk about it and problem solve with him on the few occasions he brought it up at home, but for the most part, we let it go.

If a specific issue came up more than once, we would let the teachers know about "hot spots" (like the playhouse on the playground) where kids seemed to be especially Lord of the Flies-like. That way, the adults could put a watchful eye on it to help all the kids appropriately.

We did step in and insist that the teachers address the fact that the other kids were telling DS that there was no way he had two moms, and that DP must be his stepmom. I'm sure it made for some interesting conversations around the dinner table.

[BCFD]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30

We did step in and insist that the teachers address the fact that the other kids were telling DS that there was no way he had two moms, and that DP must be his stepmom. I'm sure it made for some interesting conversations around the dinner table.

OMG this made me giggle. One of DD's classmates asked me, "Why doesn't she live with her daddy" and I said, "Because boys get to be Dads and girls get to be Moms" and he just looked at me like, "huh?"

DD was adopted PLUS has a Mommy and Mama and I love hearing her explain it to her friends. She is so confident and uses perfect adoption/alternative family terminology She will say, "I have a BIRTH Dad and his name is....." or "My BIRTH Mom is...." or "I grew in my BIRTH Mom's tummy" and my favorite, "I do NOT have two Mommies!! I have a Mommy and a Mama!"

[ADirrim]

Originally Posted by jnh896

I've tried to talk with her about things like "Not everyone wants a hug" and "If someone says no (to any request of yours) then you must respect their choice without quibbling." Which, of course, her response is always "why?" and then I get stuck as to what to say. I really didn't want her happy view that everyone is her friend to get shattered just yet. (Keep in mind I'm not talking about strangers or potential predators...I'm talking about her fellow classmates with whom she interacts everyday.)

How should I address this with her teacher?

If you've made it this far, thanks for listening. Thanks for any insights!

In most Montessori classes, children are taught (explicitly) to respect the boundaries of their classmates. This includes asking permission to touch another person's work, to assist them with a lesson, to hug each other, to interrupt others politely, etc (adults also ask permission, by the way). If your daughter asked me "why" I would say "because it is respectful." Just as an interruption or assistance may be welcome or unwelcome, sometimes people need their space. In other words, I think you can address it as a matter of politeness and courtesy, not with the approach that people don't want a hug from her or don't want to be her friend.

The other half of this equation is that teachers normally teach children polite ways of declining assistance or affection. Generally, this would include phrases like "I want to do it by myself" (not, "I don't want to work with you") or "I feel like being by myself right now" (not, "I don't want to play with you"). Obviously, running away from her was disruptive and rude.

As a parent, I would just take the approach of "That's wierd, why do you think they did that?" This gives your daughter the opportunity to talk and tell you about what is going on, with the added benefit that she will not pick up on your emotional response about it (sometimes we adults are more sensistive to things and if she is able to blow it off without it negatively affecting her self-esteem, so much the better). If there don't seem to be deeper issues (the incident wasn't part of a larger disagreement), I would try to subtly convey an attitude of "too bad for them/that's their problem/maybe they were having a bad day/don't give it too much thought" (truthfully, there are hurtful people out there and it would be good for your daughter to realize that it says more about them than it does about her, and not to be overly attuned to it). In addition, however, I would just tell the teacher about any specific incidents that you know of (to give her an idea), explain that your daughter's feelings were hurt, and that you have some concerns about her social inclusion. I am sure that once she is aware of your daughter's concerns, she will help to address them- and I wouldn't worry about your daughter being perceived as a "tattle-tale". At this age, children often need assistance working through disasagreements and feeling empowered to tell their peers when they feel disrespected. Additionally, it benefits the other girls to consider the effects of their actions on others.