Would it be so bad to keep my mouth shut? - Page 2

[jenP]

Originally Posted by OperaDiva

I mostly lurk here, but just wanted to suggest another possibility for why a circ'd dad may want their son circ'd, as I strongly suspect this may be my hubby's case. His issue was not locker room teasing, but thinking that me not wanting our son to look like him meant that I was unhappy with how he looked. I love him, and have never been with an intact guy so it really is a non-issue to me, but guys are so sensitive about stuff like this, so I thought I'd mention it as a potential talking point.

That is a good point. A man could think that, since his wife is fighting so hard to protect her son's foreskin, that she must really loooove foreskin, and therefore not be so happy with her husband's circumcised penis. He may be afraid that every time he sees the kid naked he will be reminded that his wife wished he had a foreskin. He may feel that if his wife really loves him she will prove it by having the baby circumcised.
(I realize none of that is very rational but that's to be expected, it is a very emotional issue for circumcised men.)

It may be better to keep with the issue of choice when talking with your husband. Talking about how much pleasure and sensation for both partners is lost when the foreskin is cut off could only make him feel bad. Something like, "I love you, I love your body, you are wonderful exactly as you are. BUT you had an important choice taken away from you when you couldn't speak for yourself. Maybe you would have made the same choice anyway when you were old enough, but the choice SHOULD have been yours. I just want to preserve that choice for our son. It is HIS body, so it should be HIS choice, not ours."

This issue is so tough on our circumcised husbands. But one consolation is, when we see our men be brave enough to face their fears and insecurities, and strong enough to put their child's needs first.. boy do we see them as heroes! Real men. Manly men. Real fathers. Having your wife fall in love with you all over again can't be a bad thing, can it?

Jen

ETA: To answer your original question, yes I think it would be okay to drop the subject. It is very upsetting to your husband. It could take him years to work through his issues. The important thing is, to make sure your son is safe. As long as that is assured, you can stop talking about it and let your husband come around in his own time.
All the best to you!

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by OperaDiva

I mostly lurk here, but just wanted to suggest another possibility for why a circ'd dad may want their son circ'd, as I strongly suspect this may be my hubby's case. His issue was not locker room teasing, but thinking that me not wanting our son to look like him meant that I was unhappy with how he looked. I love him, and have never been with an intact guy so it really is a non-issue to me, but guys are so sensitive about stuff like this, so I thought I'd mention it as a potential talking point.

Originally Posted by jenP

Hmm, this seems to assume that when the man says "I want my son to look like me" that he actually, literally means he wants the kid's penis to look like his. Really, all the man means is "I want the kid circumcised, because I am."
To take it further, what he really means is, "If I do not circumcise my son, it means that maybe there is something wrong with circumcision, and since I am circumcised I cannot deal with that idea, so I will have my son circumcised so that I can go on believing that circumcision, and therefore my circumcised penis, is jolly good. Even better if, by circumcising my son, I can believe that he and I are part of a grand cultural and family tradition. Anything, just so I can continue telling myself that I am happy to be circumcised and never have to face the idea that I may be missing - or missing out on - something!"

It isn't actually about the looks. Just about making sure the surgery is done to the kid so that the dad can feel good about what was done to him.

Jen

I strongly, strongly believe that both OperaDiva and JenP hit the nail on the head in these posts--big time!! These should be stickied or something.

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by jenP

ETA: To answer your original question, yes I think it would be okay to drop the subject. It is very upsetting to your husband. It could take him years to work through his issues. The important thing is, to make sure your son is safe. As long as that is assured, you can stop talking about it and let your husband come around in his own time.

Is the OP going to be doing all the diaper changes and baths? Otherwise, I don't see how the issue will just drop if her husband sees the intact penis over and over on a daily basis.

This is a toughie!

[jenP]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

Is the OP going to be doing all the diaper changes and baths? Otherwise, I don't see how the issue will just drop if her husband sees the intact penis over and over on a daily basis.

This is a toughie!

I was just thinking that, if it is clear to all parties that keeping the child intact is absolutely non-negotiable, and if the dad has agreed to keep his son intact (even though he feels uncomfortable) then what is the point of continuing to bring it up? Why does the guy have to hear every day how many nerve endings he is missing, and how the mechanics of sex have been altered for the worse for himself and his wife, and how dried out and desensitized his glans is, and so on?

If he is seeing the intact penis all the time, he just might get used to it, and start to "come around" and be really, really glad that they kept their son intact and start telling all his friends not to circumcise their kids. Or maybe not. Maybe he will still have issues, maybe even for years. But they are his issues, his to decide to deal with and talk about - or not. All his wife can do is let him know she loves him and is there to talk if he wants to. After all, she didn't originally start the circumcision discussion to convert her husband into a hard-core intactivist. She started it because she wanted to protect her son and keep him intact. If that goal has been achieved, then she doesn't really need to bring it up any more, right? Just give him time and space to digest it all and think about it. Probably after he welcomes his perfect son to the world in a gentle, natural birth, and after he helps to care for and nurture that little life, he may step back and wonder how he ever even considered taking a knife or scalpel or forceps or clamp to that little person he loves. But he has to get there on his own. You can lead a horse to water...

Jen

[jenP]

Hmm, it seems I may have been misreading the OP. I thought he had agreed to do whatever Mom thought best, and that when he said "No" that he was only meaning that he personally was not comfortable with keeping son intact but was still agreeing to that as the decision. As in, "I know we aren't circumcising, and NO I am not happy about it!" My whole last post was based on that interpretation.
But now, rereading I think I was wrong! I think it meant he is still going to be pushing for circumcision.
If that's the case, I think you do need to talk some more. I wouldn't just rely on UC plans and his unlikeliness to schedule a circumcision later. It has to be clear: the baby stays intact and this is NON-negotiable. Try not to get drawn into any arguing or debate. Be happy to discuss his issues or worries, be willing to explain your reasoning and listen to his thoughts, but he has to understand and agree that no one will be cutting anything off of your child. He can be as pouty or sad or whatever as he wants about it, but he has to agree that the circumcision won't happen. THEN you can drop it.

Good luck!

Jen

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by jenP

Hmm, it seems I may have been misreading the OP. I thought he had agreed to do whatever Mom thought best, and that when he said "No" that he was only meaning that he personally was not comfortable with keeping son intact but was still agreeing to that as the decision. As in, "I know we aren't circumcising, and NO I am not happy about it!" My whole last post was based on that interpretation.
But now, rereading I think I was wrong! I think it meant he is still going to be pushing for circumcision.
If that's the case, I think you do need to talk some more. I wouldn't just rely on UC plans and his unlikeliness to schedule a circumcision later. It has to be clear: the baby stays intact and this is NON-negotiable. Try not to get drawn into any arguing or debate. Be happy to discuss his issues or worries, be willing to explain your reasoning and listen to his thoughts, but he has to understand and agree that no one will be cutting anything off of your child. He can be as pouty or sad or whatever as he wants about it, but he has to agree that the circumcision won't happen. THEN you can drop it.

Good luck!

Jen

I agree with this. What I am wondering, not because I'm second guessing the OP's sense of what her husband would or would not do, but just more as a general legal thing, is what happens if a mother and father are just at complete loggerheads about whether or not to circ? Surely this has had to have happened more than a few times, where the mother is just dead set against it and the dad is just fixated on making his son "match". (Or, who knows, it could be the other way around, but this must be much more rare.)

So what happens? Is it only because I'm an intactivist that I think legally the tie should go to the parent who refuses to circ? And I'm wondering about different scenarios: one where the marriage breaks up over the issue (in which case, what if the dad takes the kid to the doctor for a circ on his weekend or something?!?) as well as one where the dad just sneaks the baby off to get a circ when mom's asleep or something. I even have this image of the dad making a break for the door with baby in hand while the mom's in the bathroom, and a high speed car chase ensuing! Absurd and funny in a way, but actually, not so much.

[calngavinsmom]

Jamie, congrats on your little boy to be and good for you for standing up for him It really is a non-issue for little boys to not match their Dads. My sons are 8 and 5 and neither are cut but their Dad (born in 1973) is.

My older son only commented on the difference once, he had become retractible at about age four and he pulled the foreskin back and said hey Mom, the looks like Dads! Thats it no drama, no further comment.

My younger son did ask however about my new nephew born in May who was cut. Not in front of my stepsis, but after she left, so I did take that opportunity to explain circumcision and my views about it to both of my boys. They think its crazy. Clairity through the unbiased eyes of a child.

Anyhow, I think this little article might be useful in your situation:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm

Good luck with your hubby!

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by calngavinsmom

Anyhow, I think this little article might be useful in your situation:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm

That article is good as far as it goes (and it certainly means well); but I think it unfortunately sidesteps, or at least does not provide a satisfying answer for, the issues raised in the two posts I quoted above (from OperaDiva and JenP). The dads quoted in the article have overcome these psychosocial issues, but I don't think they are typical.

I'm not sure anyone's got a completely satisfactory way of dealing with those issues, really, which goes a long way toward explaining why we are the world's only secular circumcising nation. Time and attrition may be our best allies, as long as we're not sabotaged by nonsense like that put out recently by the CDC (oooh, that made me so mad).

[jessjgh1]

coming back to post the link I mentioned... This is one that many people have mentioned here. My dh is Jewish, so the looks like arguement was not something that he had an issue with.
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html
Again, for a woman to read and think about, not necessarily to be shared with the partner.

Jessica

[thefreckledmama]

*Update*

This morning after our big girls were at school, I asked my husband if we could sit down and talk about the baby being circ'd. I told him I needed him to explain to me why he felt so strongly that the baby should be circ'd, so I could understand his side of things. He basically said that he had it done, and it's just something that gets done. I asked him about the "real man" comment. He said that it's like a rite of passage for a boy. I said ok, but how much of a "rite of passage is it REALLY, if he has no recollection or memory of it? He was quiet for a minute, then I asked if I could say a few things. I brought up our daughter's tonsillectomy when she was 3. Because of his work schedule I was with her before/after the surgery, as well as overnight for observation in the hospital, and then fully responsible for her during her recovery. I reminded him of how hard it was to watch her deal with that pain, but in that case it was necessary for her health and well being. She didn't feel the procedure, and we were able to somewhat explain to her what to expect. She also had pain medicine before, during, and after the surgery until SHE was able to tell us she didn't need it anymore. I went on to say that I just couldn't fathom taking a brand new perfect child, and removing a part of their body with no genuine reason or benefit. That he wouldn't be given anything before, during, or after for the pain. That he wouldn't have any way to understand WHY this pain was being inflicted on him. This is where he stopped me.

He said, he understood my feelings, and that he wouldn't ask me to have this done to him. Not that he totally 100% agrees, but that he agrees to the point that he sees my side of it, and since his reasons basically don't have as much bearing as mine, that he would be fine with whatever I decided.

I told him I didn't want him to agree just because he didn't want to have the discussion anymore, and I didn't want him to be upset with me further down the road because of it. He said he wouldn't be, and that he'd be fine, and that even though he's not on the exact same page as me, that I wouldn't be so opposed to it if not for good reason, so that's enough for him to be ok with leaving the baby intact.

YAY!!!

I'm SO happy we were able to resolve this. I'm especially glad that I didn't have to go the route of saying this is how it's going to be, and I don't care what you think/want/feel-because I would have if I had to.

Thank you for all the suggestions, and perspectives of how to approach this. I think it really helped me to be able to have a constructive discussion with my husband, as opposed to getting upset and taking the whyareyoubeingsuchanahole approach.

Most of all, my son thanks you!

[Fyrestorm]

Congrats!! Now go enjoy the rest rest of your pregnancy!

oh...you might want to check out the stickies for care of an intact boy and the NO RETRACTION EVER info

[SlackerDad]

Awesome. Your son is lucky to have you as a mom!

This really underlines that we have our work cut out for us in the broader society, however:

"He basically said that he had it done, and it's just something that gets done."

Think about all the mothers out there who do not have strong anti-circ opinions. This is an extremely common position for a man to have, and most women will just throw up their hands and say "he's the one with the penis, I'm not going to go to the mat on this". As some have posted, there are even "crunchy" moms who give in on this issue because they figure they have a hard enough time convincing their husbands about other issues like cosleeping etc.

So I guess although I'm optimistic about the long or even medium term, the short term can seem somewhat discouraging for this reason.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

I'm not sure anyone's got a completely satisfactory way of dealing with those issues, really, which goes a long way toward explaining why we are the world's only secular circumcising nation.

What leads you to this conclusion?

[elanorh]

Originally Posted by Otto

What leads you to this conclusion?

Secular means "not religiously based," basically. The other nations with high circumcision rates are not secular nations - look at the map you linked - those countries are nations which have national religions or religious basis for many of their laws at the very least.

America may be predominantly a Christian nation, but it is a secular nation as well - and far more secular than the other 'high circ' nations on that map.

[fruitful womb]

Congratulations! I'm so happy for you all!

[PuppyFluffer]

congratulations!

I think that you will find, over time, once your little boy is here and "real" in all ways....that your husband will form a deeper opinion of circumcision and become more solid in his knowledge that he made the right decision...while at the same time possibly becoming more unsettled about his own circumcision.

I am deeply sad for all men who have been circumcised without their permission.

Again, congratulations on your little boy.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Secular means "not religiously based," basically. The other nations with high circumcision rates are not secular nations - look at the map you linked - those countries are nations which have national religions or religious basis for many of their laws at the very least.

America may be predominantly a Christian nation, but it is a secular nation as well - and far more secular than the other 'high circ' nations on that map.

I know what "secular" means. I just don't see any reason to blithely brand everything from Senegal to the Indian Subcontinent as "not secular" solely for the reason of wanting to claim that the U.S. is the "world's only secular circumcising nation."

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Otto

I know what "secular" means. I just don't see any reason to blithely brand everything from Senegal to the Indian Subcontinent as "not secular" solely for the reason of wanting to claim that the U.S. is the "world's only secular circumcising nation."

In fact though that is the case isn't it. Most of the countries who have high rates of circumcision do so because they have high populations of non secular groups that do it. I mean we could go country by country but that might really derail the thread.

[serendipity22]

why we are the world's only secular circumcising nation.

Islamic and other tribal circumcision is done to young or teenage boys, not infants.

The USA and Israel are the only 2 nations that circumcise a majority of its infant boys.

USA is secular, Israel is not.

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer

I think that you will find, over time, once your little boy is here and "real" in all ways....that your husband will form a deeper opinion of circumcision and become more solid in his knowledge that he made the right decision...while at the same time possibly becoming more unsettled about his own circumcision.

Great points, both.