I can't homeschool my 5 year old - long

[BellinghamCrunchie]

My 5 year old is only interested in fantasy play. That's it. I can't get her to be interested in drawing, reading, computer games, educational dvds, music, math, anything.

Before you say incorporate learning opportunities into fantasy play as the occasion naturally arises, I've tried! She super-sensitive to anything that remotely smacks of learning opportunity.

Like this:

Bean: "Mama you think I'm the baby but I'm really an acrobat and I can climb up this yellow swing and you are SO surprised!"

Me: "Okay! Wow, what a cute little baby!"

Bean starts climbing.

Me: "What? I don't believe it!!! A baby that can climb??? This is amazing! How many feet can you climb?" (She can measure feet)

Bean: Mama I don't want to measure! I just want to play!

and so on.

We haven't innundated her with "learning opportunities." We haven't, by any means, turned every play session into a learning experience. We have hardly done anything at all with her regarding homeschooling. We've been really relaxed, waiting for her to ask the questions, wanting to help her find the answers. But she doesn't want to learn anything. She'll say, "Look! A ladybug!" and I'll say "Want to look at her under the magnifying glass?" and she'll say, "NO MAMA you be the ladybug mama, and I'll be your baby, and you have to fly away home to rescue me."

I don't think I've interrupted her natural enjoyment of something (like the ladybug) by wanting to make the experience more "schooly." I'm not really trying to do that. I just want her to want to know more about something, to wonder how something works, or what its for, or how its spelled... anything but utter and complete fantasy play (which I am so burned out on anyways).

I've tried to be creative (I'm actually a pretty creative person - the other mama's say they are impressed by the ideas I come up with to try to engage my child). I think I'm pretty sensitive, really - not so likely to miss on Bean's subtle cues about what she really needs. Probably too sensitive, maybe reading too much into her subtle cues. These kinds of things have been my strengths in working with other people's children. But Bean just doesn't seem interested.

We've been doing Suzuki piano lessons. We're lucky if we get 30 seconds of practice in on the piano each day. She says she doesn't want to learn piano. On the piano, she wants to be the spider walking down the keys to the thundercloud (me, on the low notes). Which is great, except this game has not changed in over 12 months. She doesn't want to make a song on the way down, or hop on the black keys, or learn the notes, or watch me play the simple notes to Twinkle Twinkle... she just wants to be the spider walking down the keys to the thundercloud. Okay, so she isn't interested in the piano. That's really okay - its just that there's nothing I can find that she is interested in, other than fantasy play. Paint? Nope. Color? Nope. Bang on this drum? Nope. Read a book (only if its filled with action, has less than 10 words per page, and we can act it out afterwards). Play Candyland? Hullabaloo? Twister? Uno? Go Fish? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

Me: "Let's pretend we're kitties and see who has more water in their bowl, me or you?"

Bean: " MAMA I just want to play kitties!"

Is it true that someday she will want to learn more? Will she want to learn to read someday on her own, and do math and stuff? Its hard for me to see that happening. I need reassurance or help or something. All the other kids her age are so excited to do my little experiments, and they want to show me the letters, and they want to count with me... I just don't know what I'm doing wrong, or how to approach my child so that I don't ruin her love for learning (I feel like I'm already ruining it).

[beth144]

I also have a daughter that resists formal learning at times though not to this degree. My only suggestions would be to possibly have daddy, grandma or a friend try to teach her something. I know my daughter loves to look up animal facts or geography with daddy on the computer, but is not really interested in doing it with me for some reason.

How does she do with her piano teacher?

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

Is it true that someday she will want to learn more? Will she want to learn to read someday on her own, and do math and stuff? Its hard for me to see that happening. I need reassurance or help or something. All the other kids her age are so excited to do my little experiments, and they want to show me the letters, and they want to count with me... I just don't know what I'm doing wrong, or how to approach my child so that I don't ruin her love for learning (I feel like I'm already ruining it).

Yes, she'll one day be moving into the kind of things you're concerned about, but she's awfully young, and she really doesn't have any need for all that. It sounds as if her imagination is really flourishing - that will serve her well and that be vital in all the rest of her learning. There are children who don't have her imagination and creative drive - she's actually a lot better off than some who might do the things you're wanting but don't happen to have the active imagination she has. My guess is that she'll be open sooner to the kinds of things you're describing if you stop approaching her with them. It's not that you're doing anything wrong, but that she can see right through your attempts to orchestrate things into learning experiences that are about things you consider to be of some sort of importance. I think all children can see those things, really, but some are bothered about it whereas some aren't. And some children love to participate in activities led by an adult, whereas lots of others simply want to play and use their imagination. It will all work out by the time any of it matters, though. Right now, she's doing all she needs - it's just great for her age .

Here's a page that has lots of articles, most by professional educators and researchers, that address these kinds of questions: preschool/kindergarten learning activities.

Lillian

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by beth144

I also have a daughter that resists formal learning at times though not to this degree. My only suggestions would be to possibly have daddy, grandma or a friend try to teach her something. I know my daughter loves to look up animal facts or geography with daddy on the computer, but is not really interested in doing it with me for some reason.

How does she do with her piano teacher?

She flits about, brings up other subjects, dances around, distracts, and does everything she can to not engage. I kinda feel sorry for the music teacher but she is rather old school and the only thing she's got in her toolbox other than a happy good nature is coersion (rewards, threatening to withhold rewards). Bean has become really sensitive to rewards/punishments (we usually use neither) and although she can't express why she doesn't want to engage, she generally refuses to engage (although she does so in a "nice" way - by pretending to be distracted).

She is respectful to adults and will suffer through their attempts at teaching her and is polite, but usually they are unable to pick up on the fact that she is very disinterested. We don't have that much interaction with other people, though. I wish we had more.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Yes, she'll one day be moving into the kind of things you're concerned about, but she's awfully young, and she really doesn't have any need for all that. It sounds as if her imagination is really flourishing - that will serve her well and that be vital in all the rest of her learning.
Lillian

Thanks, Lillian. I was hoping you'd weigh in. I think I am looking for reassurance, reasons why she's not only okay but flourishing, and that I just need to chill out, and you provided that As usual

I will check out the links.

One thing I think is part of the problem is that she is very intelligent, knows her letters and letter sounds, can count and add, knows a great deal about things I didn't imagine she could understand, and I didn't teach her any of this. She's picking it up somewhere. She is very intolerant of boredom, hates repetition, and we've never read a book more than once (not like other kids I've heard about, who want the same book read over and over). Even though she disengages during piano lessons and dances and flits about and only practices 30 seconds a day, somehow she knows many of the notes on the staff, can play a simple piece (hurriedly to get through it but correctly), knows all the C's, B's, A's on the piano keyboard, knows when to use the left hand and when to use the right. I haven't got a clue how she learned it.

[shoefairy3]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Yes, she'll one day be moving into the kind of things you're concerned about, but she's awfully young, and she really doesn't have any need for all that. It sounds as if her imagination is really flourishing - that will serve her well and that be vital in all the rest of her learning. There are children who don't have her imagination and creative drive - she's actually a lot better off than some who might do the things you're wanting but don't happen to have the active imagination she has. My guess is that she'll be open sooner to the kinds of things you're describing if you stop approaching her with them. It's not that you're doing anything wrong, but that she can see right through your attempts to orchestrate things into learning experiences that are about things you consider to be of some sort of importance. I think all children can see those things, really, but some are bothered about it whereas some aren't. And some children love to participate in activities led by an adult, whereas lots of others simply want to play and use their imagination. It will all work out by the time any of it matters, though. Right now, she's doing all she needs - it's just great for her age .

Here's a page that has lots of articles, most by professional educators and researchers, that address these kinds of questions: preschool/kindergarten learning activities.

Lillian

i completely agree. She sounds like a joy to have around

[RiverSky]

I think you should play with her and leave out the forced learning opportunities. Obviously, she has caught on and can see you coming from a mile away. I'd say that makes her awfully clever and bright.

I think that at 5, unless she asks for it, it is COMPLETELY useless to try to force schooly stuff on her. Are you a member of a homeschool group? Do you take her to park days and field trips? Do you have a children's museum or zoo membership? Do you read to her daily? Do you take her to story times at the library? Does she play with friends? If you feel like her playing is harming her somehow, then perhaps your making sure that her life is enriching and varied would help you to relax. I think (and studies show) that a trip to a children's museum gives more to a child than the same amount of time engaged in schooly-type work.

Honestly, I think you should be happy that she plays so creatively and encourage it to continue. It's a wonderful period of her development and her brain is doing marvelous things while she plays.

As for Suzuki piano, if you sit down and play some songs, does she often come and want to listen to you do it? or take over from you? Can you do impromptu concerts in your family, with the two of you taking turns playing for friends or family? My son used to enjoy practicing using an old monopoly game board that we glued the names of his various exercises (Suzuki violin) and songs to, and the two of us would roll the dice and take turns playing whatever ditty came up while playing the game. I think that if your daughter isn't willing to do things like that (on occasion, no one and I mean NO ONE always LOVES to practice, no matter what age), then perhaps she is not quite ready for Suzuki piano.

[EviesMom]

I don't think you need major academics at this age, but it does sound to me like something of a rut. I think you should stop being so creative for her. Do things that you want to do instead, and let her help if she likes, but don't play endless pretend with her by her rules. She'll either play pretend on her own, which means she'll be doing all the creativity at least; or (and I think this is more likely), she'll get bored with pretend when it's not boostered by your great creative ideas for pretend play. She'll probably want to help you do whatever it is you're doing, though maybe grudgingly--baking, sewing, reading (choose something kid friendly to read, a novel she might like). Plus, this should help with your exhaustion on the fantasy play, even if she still wants to do more fantasy play.

When DD gets in a rut, she makes art from little cuttings of paper and glitter, over and over and over. When it starts, she's being creative and really truly loving it. When it gets rut and obsessive, she doesn't express joy at anything she's doing, she isn't trying to make something she can't quite do yet, she's just doing what she knows used to make her happy and trying it again. She needs a lift out of that, by me doing something else with her whether she says she wants to or not. Then she finds something else that she does like and we move on.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

Are you a member of a homeschool group? Do you take her to park days and field trips? Do you have a children's museum or zoo membership? Do you read to her daily? Do you take her to story times at the library? Does she play with friends?

....

As for Suzuki piano, if you sit down and play some songs, does she often come and want to listen to you do it? or take over from you? Can you do impromptu concerts in your family, with the two of you taking turns playing for friends or family?

Member of homeschool group - yes, two in fact (one unschool and one regular). But there haven't been any activities in her age group, and I haven't gotten responses to requests for playgroups.

We go to the park a lot.

Field trips, not so much. She really just likes fantasy play or playing on playground equipment. I like walking in the woods or around the neighborhood; she doesn't. I'm not sure what kind of field trips she might like. We've taken a ferry boat ride, and explored the beach (won't go again with me), been apple picking (not interested), been on hayrides (loves those). Been to farms and the zoo. That's about it.

Our children's museum closed for a year, but we did go fairly frequently when it was open. We did a lot of fantasy play, lol. I'm really getting burned out on fantasy play.

Yes, we read every night.

We've tried storytime at the library, but she does not like it at all. She doesn't like to sit and listen to stories of any sort. The only reason she will listen at night before bed, I think, is because we use books with lots of action and short sentences, and/or they are interactive (lift the flap, etc), and she's tired enough to sit plus it delays bedtime.

I'm trying to find some friends. I've advertised on Craigslist and in our homeschool groups. I enrolled her in preschool, but she has lately been crying and not wanting to go (I haven't forced her on those days). There are no kids her age in our neighborhood. I have tried enrolling her in groups like Music Together, Dance, Creative Movement, pottery, etc but she just wants to do fantasy play, does not like those learning type activities. She listens well in them and follows instruction but does not want to go back and doesn't look like she's having fun.

If I sit and play at the piano, she cries and insists I stop and play with her (fantasy play). If I ask her to join me, she will pound on the keyboard, say, "there, I played, now will you play with me?" She will play fantasy games on the keyboard (e.g. she'll be a spider and I'll be a thundercloud on the low notes) but that's it. If I put on any kind of music, she wants it turned off most of the time. I've taken to playing music while she's asleep because I'm worried about her not wanting to hear music - maybe her brain can't process it or something, but I worry that her brain will never be able to process music if she never listens to it.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I think you should stop being so creative for her. Do things that you want to do instead, and let her help if she likes, but don't play endless pretend with her by her rules. She'll either play pretend on her own, which means she'll be doing all the creativity at least; or (and I think this is more likely), she'll get bored with pretend when it's not boostered by your great creative ideas for pretend play. She'll probably want to help you do whatever it is you're doing, though maybe grudgingly--baking, sewing, reading (choose something kid friendly to read, a novel she might like). Plus, this should help with your exhaustion on the fantasy play, even if she still wants to do more fantasy play.

I am pretty much at the end of my rope with the fantasy play, really. I am not a very engaging playmate! My mind wanders, I just wait for my lines (she tells me what my lines are), I feel resentful and angry. I used to be more creative and enthusiastic but I am so burnt out with the fantasy play. How I would love to paint with her, or bake, or do some science experiment, or crafts or write silly books! She'll do these things, but to her its like a tradeoff - if I do what mama wants, then mama will do what I want.

If I go on about my business, she seems so sad. She will follow me around, asking "are you done yet?" in the saddest voice. I invite her to help me and she does, but not enthusiastically, and as soon as I'm done, she asks if I can play now.

[kittywitty]

To the above.

She is really young. I certainly would not force anything on her. It sounds like (no offense!) maybe you are not yet to the point of trusting her natural learning abilities and maybe a little too pressured either externally or internally about what she "should" be doing? Try to take a deep breath and just know that she is learning, even if it doesn't look like book work, and that eventually, she will have interests and learn quantifiable things. So please, stop comparing her to others. Perhaps she feels a little bit of that from you? That she is being compared and held up to a standard she isn't developmentally ready for? All kids are different and have different learning curves. FWIW, my 7 year old was the same way. In some ways, he still is. But then he just taught himself to read fluently and has all these interests besides bouncing off the walls and playing dinosaurs, much to the relief of this nervous mother.

Have you considered taking her out of piano? It sounds like she doesn't like it and I would be worried about killing her joy of learning music by forcing it on her. Maybe another instrument? Can you take her to an instrument petting zoo they often have at orchestras or to see a Children's Symphony? Or maybe just drop it for a little while and come back to it. That often helps.

It sounds to me (just saw your new posts!) that she is just like my almost 2 year old. You have to be actively and completely engaged with just her at all times and if your mind wanders you're out of luck. I would check out Dr. Sears' The Fussy Baby and High Needs Child book and there is a high needs child thread somewhere here on MDC. It is energy draining, but it's not a personality fault, it's just the way they are. I have many a time felt like you described-angry and resentful. Maybe some inner work like the Everyday Blessings book and make sure you are getting enough personal time yourself. How is your support system at home? Do you get "me" time? Are you able to recharge at the end of the day? How is your family dynamic right now? It seems she is picking up some of the hostility and feeding off of it and it's fueling the behavior to become worse. Try to work on calming the home, creating a rhythm, and getting her to work alongside you if possible.

I haven't had luck playgroup wise, either but I would really reach out there. Sounds like a playmate would really help. Not even just her age. My almost 9 year old is the best playmate for my high needs 2 year old. But my 5 yo can't stand her. So a mixed age playgroup or just look around when she's in a group of kids and see what ages/personalities she gravitates towards and look around for more kids like that or ask their parents about playdates/playgroup get togethers?

Check out some of these:this book, Teach Your Own,

[Lillian J]

Okay, let's reconsider that wording: "part of the problem." Problem? Naw. She's way ahead of the game in what she already knows; she knows a great deal about things she's picked up in some way you don't even know of; and she knows a lot about piano without significant practice. I think there are a whole bunch of us who give you permission to chill out and just enjoy

Lillian

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Okay, let's reconsider that wording: "part of the problem." Problem? Naw. She's way ahead of the game in what she already knows; she knows a great deal about things she's picked up in some way you don't even know of; and she knows a lot about piano without significant practice. I think there are a whole bunch of us who give you permission to chill out and just enjoy

Lillian

Well, but I think that's the realr problem. Child wants to play pretend, no problem. Mama does not want to play pretend but child won't do anything else or play pretend independently? How does "just enjoy" work? Mama's required to "enjoy" something for the child's sake?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Okay, let's reconsider that wording: "part of the problem." Problem? Naw. She's way ahead of the game in what she already knows; she knows a great deal about things she's picked up in some way you don't even know of; and she knows a lot about piano without significant practice. I think there are a whole bunch of us who give you permission to chill out and just enjoy

Lillian

I would give anything for a magic pill that could make me just chill out and enjoy. I think I'm a lot like DD - like stimulation, like new experiences, love using my mind and brain to think, detest structure and tedium. And I think I react to feeling kinda trapped (although I don't want to have these feelings, I really try hard to find the joy in our play, even to the point of drinking a glass of wine to dull those "lemmeouttahere" feelings that threaten to overwhelm me). So for me to play, play, play a fantasy role non-stop is so hard. I desperately want to enjoy this play with my child that she as desperately craves. I've tried as others have suggested (in other posts) to find an activity we both enjoy, but I can't find that activity. I love her so much and she really is very wonderful and I want to be what she needs me to be; I just can't figure out how to be that person for longer than 30 minutes at a time.

I don't get many breaks, which has also been suggested. DH is good for maybe 45 minutes a day and that's it. We haven't got extended family. DH works overnights and we have a small house, so its hard to have guests over for playdates (even if we could find some people). I don't mean to sound so whiny! I will keep looking, keep trying. I know there's people out there for us somewhere.

I wonder if I could adopt another child around her age, if that would help? I did try offering free childcare in exchange for a playmate on Craigslist, but I suspect people thought that was too weird - I didn't get any responses.

Today we got 3 Magic School Bus science kits in the mail. We had a blast trying out the experiments (even though they did involve fantasy play - sending Ms. Frizzle up in a rocket, parachuting her back to earth, etc). But we blew through them in 2 hours. If I could present her with new stuff like this every day, I think we'd be okay.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

I am pretty much at the end of my rope with the fantasy play, really. I am not a very engaging playmate! My mind wanders, I just wait for my lines (she tells me what my lines are), I feel resentful and angry. I used to be more creative and enthusiastic but I am so burnt out with the fantasy play. How I would love to paint with her, or bake, or do some science experiment, or crafts or write silly books! She'll do these things, but to her its like a tradeoff - if I do what mama wants, then mama will do what I want.

If I go on about my business, she seems so sad. She will follow me around, asking "are you done yet?" in the saddest voice. I invite her to help me and she does, but not enthusiastically, and as soon as I'm done, she asks if I can play now.

Oh, dear. I'm all for encouraging her fantasy play, but you have your needs and rights as a person too. You can only be expected to do so much - I don't think it's fair to either of you to force yourself beyond a reasonable point. She's awfully young at this point, so it's understandably hard for her to comprehend that you have your own needs, but it won't be all that long before she'll begin to come into a time when it will be more obvious to her. As a matter of fact, come to think of it, I vaguely remember being frustrated and demanding with my father when he tried to study when I was little and wanted his attention. I heard many years later that it had made it very hard for him to focus on his studies, and I wished someone had just taken the time to stop and communicate to me what was going on - I really think I could have understood. Anyway, in the meantime, I think you should feel free to try different ways of expressing that you think her fantasy play is great but that you simply can't do as much of it as she'd like. It seems to me that it will actually be good for her in the long run for you to be able to draw the line. All the best in this - Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

Well, but I think that's the realr problem. Child wants to play pretend, no problem. Mama does not want to play pretend but child won't do anything else or play pretend independently? How does "just enjoy" work? Mama's required to "enjoy" something for the child's sake?

My comment, "...just enjoy..." was a response to the first post before the issue of her not wanting to spend so much time at pretend play was mentioned. Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

So for me to play, play, play a fantasy role non-stop is so hard. I desperately want to enjoy this play with my child that she as desperately craves. I've tried as others have suggested (in other posts) to find an activity we both enjoy, but I can't find that activity. I love her so much and she really is very wonderful and I want to be what she needs me to be; I just can't figure out how to be that person for longer than 30 minutes at a time.

One more suggestion. It seems to me that it would be perfectly appropriate for you to start to think more in terms of things you want to do other than things that fall into the "homeschooling" category - hobbies or other activities you may have put aside. It's not unreasonable to have expectations that a child can come up with her own resources for dealing with participating in, observing, or playing alongside things a parent is doing. It could actually turn out to be a relief to her to see you operating in a way which serves more in satisfying your own personal needs. What doesn't seem to work well is making a project of homeschooling in ways that she isn't ready for - but taking care of your own needs and letting her fit into that is a perfectly natural way of life. You may just need to find a new way of dealing with the sad looks she may go through while getting used to it - and she honestly may not like her demands any more than you do.
- Lillian

[LVale]

This is my honest opinion, so please do not feel it is unkind. It is great that your dd has such a great imagination. But you are her mother, that does not make you her playmate. She is 5 yrs. old. She is not a toddler. I personally could not have played with my kids like you have done. It is alright to set boundaries. Remember you are a person to, and you have your needs and wants. Your responsibility as a Mom, does not mean you have to constantly entertain her. Have you told her how you feel?

[waiflywaif]

I think it really does sound like she's in a bit of a rut, as a previous poster suggested. I'd back off on the homeschooling, but I'd also back off on engaging in the fantasy play. I'd try to get her a lot more playdates. Either peers will engage in the fantasy with her or they'll want to do something else, and your DD will get a lot of good experience in negotiating play.

[meetoo]

I agree with all the other posts. I can not stand playing pretend games! Has a child I lived in a fantasy world, has an adult, I have no desire to drink fake tea or whatever for hours. If my kids want to play pretend games they play by themselves, with each other, or other children. If they want to spend time with me then we choose from activities we all like. Do not be afraid to tell her I don't feel like playing kitties, but if you want to do X,Y,Z feel free to come and get me.
I think some playmates would really help you a ton! Is your DD actually Kindy age for your state? Have you looked into all the Homeschool groups? It can be tricky finding you nitch. Do you have neighbors? Or the same park you can visit at regular time, to maybe meet some kids? Also you can find homeschool classes sometimes at the YMCA (call a few different branches), art studios, childrens museums. DO you have any type of family resource centers or anything around? Sounds like your DD would do best with a play group. Good luck! I bet a few playmates will really turn things around for you.