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studies and trials regarding vaccines.

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Why aren't vaccines subject to scientific double blind studies? I think they should be. I believe that double blind scientifically controlled trials are the gold standard of proof. Otherwise in the words of Dr. Mendelsohn, vaccines are quackery. If there are any studies, where are they?

I have heard (1) That doctors do not want to deprive anyone of their vaccines, so they give them to everyone. or (2) That an immune response cannot be faked, so a double blind study will not work (?).

I think they do not want to do a double blind study. This would be a study in which two groups are matched for social, physical, and other variables and then one group is given a placebo shot and the other gets the real thing and the outcomes are compared for a short time, a very short time as in six weeks for vaccines. Why is this not done with vaccines?

Just asking.

Am I wrong to insist that something that the government is recommending for my children and me should be tested to be sure it works the way it is supposed to and enough follow up to be sure it is generally regarded as safe? Is that too much to ask? Am I wrong, stupid, ignorant, or missing something?
post #2 of 20
Those 2 reasons are just excuses. As you said, they do not want to do double blind studies. There is already evidence of fraud and lies in vaccine studies, as Hilary Butler describes in Just A Little Prick on pages 209-210 about how Dr. J. Anthony Morris worked for DBS (which is now the FDA) to research flu vaccines, and when he showed them the results of his studies about flu vaccines offering no real benefit, DBS destroyed his research and fired him from his job. Of course they sold the flu vaccines anyway.
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you.

Family members have told me that the advice given in 1976 was that the vaccine had the potential to be highly neurologically toxic, so when the "line formed for the swine flu vaccine, get out of line...." That was good advice.
post #4 of 20
Yes....double blind, placebo controlled studies are considered unethical.

Of course it would be easy to compare vaccinated to unvaccinated kids by using unvaccinated kids that are that way because their parents want them to be, but this wouldn't be double blind.

Would you put your child in a study like this?? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to risk my child getting in the testing group vs the placebo.

The placebo is also an issue. Many clinical trials when testing for safety do not use a true placebo (saline), but another already approved vaccine or the "crap" in the vaccine minus the active antigen.
post #5 of 20
I have read as Therese mentioned that there is some international convention that states that depriving any group of a "life-saving" vaccine would be unethical.

It is sooooooo convenient.

It was nice to meet a few scientists outside of medicine who said that hard scientists look down on the lack of integrity rampant in medical research. That was nice to hear, because the pathetic lack of "science" I have now seen with regards to vaccinations and many medicines has been so disappointing.

Now I think of term "pro science" very differently. Since I am a truth seeker, I thought I was "pro-science" but now I see many people blindly following the medical community on faith. The irony...
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
The placebo is also an issue. Many clinical trials when testing for safety do not use a true placebo (saline), but another already approved vaccine or the "crap" in the vaccine minus the active antigen.
just out of curiosity, do you have any more info on this (sources), i would like to read more.
post #7 of 20
It's the Helsinki agreement that does not allow patients to be denied an established treatment/intervention during trials for a new drug.
http://www.arvo.org/EWEB/dynamicpage...bcode=Helsinki
Quote:
The benefits, risks, burdens and effectiveness of a new intervention must be tested against those of the best current proven intervention, except in the following circumstances:

* The use of placebo, or no treatment, is acceptable in studies where no current proven intervention exists; or
* Where for compelling and scientifically sound methodological reasons the use of placebo is necessary to determine the efficacy or safety of an intervention and the patients who receive placebo or no treatment will not be subject to any risk of serious or irreversible harm. Extreme care must be taken to avoid abuse of this option.
If you read the studies on the safety and efficacy of vaccines, you will see that the placebo is another vaccine. Sometimes an experimental vaccine, which is just . How that got past an ethics committee I just cannot think.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...t-the-studies/

The more I look into this, the more complicated it gets.

I think a case control study would probably be the best way to gather evidence on the long term impact of vaccination. This is how DES was established as causing vaginal and cervical cancer in some girls born to women who were prescribed DES when they were pregnant.
post #8 of 20
And people wonder why I am not going to vaccinate DS. If they cannot "ethically" prove to me that a vaccine is safe, I cannot ethically give that vaccine to my child.
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
It's the Helsinki agreement that does not allow patients to be denied an established treatment/intervention during trials for a new drug.
http://www.arvo.org/EWEB/dynamicpage...bcode=Helsinki


If you read the studies on the safety and efficacy of vaccines, you will see that the placebo is another vaccine. Sometimes an experimental vaccine, which is just . How that got past an ethics committee I just cannot think.


.
I can never find this part in the studies. I'm sure I'm looking right at it, but where does it say *what* the "placebo" is. I always just read that they were given a "placebo". Sometimes when reading these studies (which is usually at night after lo is in bed) my head spins.
post #10 of 20
It's not mentioned in the abstract. If it is mentioned, you will find it in the methodology. It is not always written what the placebo is.
post #11 of 20
Sometimes they mention the "placebo", e.g. in the Gardasil study it is mentioned. Mostly it is DTaP or other childhood vaccines as they are supposedly completely safe and can act as placebos....
I may be a social scientist only, but if I had handed it such "science" as my thesis my professor would have laughed at me and chased me out of the office for not being serious.
There are plenty of parents who do not vaccinate so a study that is "ethical" could be easily done, not double blind, but at least theRE would be a real control group.
post #12 of 20
I think one of the problems would be finding people who would participate. I vaccinate, and I wouldn't participate in one because I want to make sure my children get the vaccine. The people I know who don't vaccinate wouldn't participate because they don't want to risk their children getting the vaccine.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmasbaby7 View Post
Now I think of term "pro science" very differently. Since I am a truth seeker, I thought I was "pro-science" but now I see many people blindly following the medical community on faith. The irony...
Tell me about it. The new line of rhetoric is to refer to vax skeptics as individuals fighting the "war on science." Never mind that we're simply demanding more of it...
post #14 of 20
Most vaccines are subject to double blind studies. Here are a few examples concerning the flu vaccine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/342306?dopt=Abstract
In this study approximately 1500 individuals were given either a vaccine or a placebo followed by a nasal injection of the either one strain of the influenza virus or a mixture of strains. While nearly all of the placebo group got the flu 95% of those vaccinated protected the single strain flu and70-90% were protected from the multiple strain flu. They also followed up in side effects, which were mild in the vaccinated groups.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3862271

In this study approximately 1000 people were given the influenza vaccine and 1000 were given a placebo before flu season. They found the vaccinated group was three times less likely to get the flu, and had side effects that consisted of mild symptoms that went away within 48 hours
In both cases the placebo group was given a liquid that contained everything but the actual attenuated virus. This is an important control, if they simply gave saline as a placebo it would not be possible to tell what caused the changes between the two groups.
Components in the vaccines such as adjuvants, chemicals that increase the body immume response to the vaccine, and preservatives, also go through a double blinded testing, for instance: this one

Double blind studies are also carried out when vaccines are changed. To keep up with the influenza theme here is one testing live vs attenuated vaccines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
Finally, here is a study with double-blind controls testing groups given saline placebos, and influenza vaccines with no adjuvants, and influenza vaccines with varying levels of different adjuvants. Study

Similar studies exist for other vaccines as well, but this post is long enough already.
Sadly, as mentioned above, there are bad researchers and bad science out there. To know the data you are looking at is not biasd…or at least less biased, try to look at studies done at universitys rather than by companies and check the funding source. If the research funding is from a public grant it has to be sited at the end of the article. Also, try to look for studies that are done by multiple institutions, it is much harder to falsify data if many different labs are conducting the research together.
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 
Welcome, tessesdad. Happy to see your first post on MDC here on the vaccine forum. Please introduce yourself.

I agree with your statement about studies done at Universities rather than companie$ that have a ve$ted intere$t in the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
I think a case control study would probably be the best way to gather evidence on the long term impact of vaccination. This is how DES was established as causing vaginal and cervical cancer in some girls born to women who were prescribed DES when they were pregnant.
Yes. DES. DES was prescribed from 1938 to 1971 as an anti miscarriage drug. It was treated as a vitamin. There was a study done at the University of Chicago in 1945-1947 that showed that it was worthless, yet it continued to be prescribed for another 30 years despite the findings of that study.

DES has been found to cause cancer in the mothers who took it, their daughter and sons and now grandchildren. Where is the informed consent in a drug that one takes today and causes cancer in your grandchildren 20-40 years later? Where is the science in a treatment like that?
thank you ema-adama
post #16 of 20
With regards to double blind placebo controlled trials and the vaccines being tested.

I can understand using another vaccine if you are wanting to test the efficacy of the vaccine. Obviously antibodies against Hib cannot be produced by a DTP vaccine.

However, I have yet to understand how the safety of the vaccine can be established when measuring two vaccines against each other. Especially when the safety of vaccines and the ingredients in vaccines have not been established.

From what I have understood, and I am still learning, safe is pretty much defined as not life threatening. At the very very most, subjects in trials are followed for 6 months, although most often it is only days or weeks that they are followed.

It would be impossible to establish the long term safety in a double bind placebo controlled study. I get that. But science does have other tools at it's disposal.

From what I can find, there is a lack of evidence on the long term safety of vaccines and the ingredients in vaccines. There is no evidence that injecting materials such as aluminium is safe, even though it is FDA approved. Somewhere along the line it was assumed safe and then became the standard and now the onus is on scientists to establish that it is not safe. And future adjuvants are measured for safety by compring them to established adjuvants, which may or may not be safe.

I have not seen evidence of many scientists asking questions around the safety of injecting any of the ingredients in vaccines. Somehow it just was assumed that if we are exposed to the ingredients in our air and food, small amount must be safe to inject.

And they might be. I don't know. I don't think anyone *knows*.

I do not think it would be a waste of time and money to do two case control studies designed by those who wish to see vaccines safe and by those who wish to see vaccines are not safe. They can critique eah others science and we'll see what comes out of it. Anyway, that is me dreaming.

tessesdad - you seem to know much more than I do about the different vaccines trials. Are you comfortable with how 'safe' has been defined and established?
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you again, ema-adama. Very good, thoughtful post.

For aluminium adjuvants:

IF aluminium worked the way it is supposed to, to initiate an immune response to a dead virus, then it should only be in the first vaccine. The subsequent boosters could be aluminium free since the immune response is already established ... or should be.

Since aluminium is suspected of being involved in some chronic autoimmune conditions as arthritis and to a degree in Alzheimer's, this should be an option.

The long term studies done are called post surveillance marketing.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama2Rio View Post
just out of curiosity, do you have any more info on this (sources), i would like to read more.
Look at the clinical trials themselves.....

also can look at this nice summary
http://www.cynthiajanak.com/20080723placebo.html

here is a nice article from Dr. Tenpenny
http://www.medicalvoices.org/en/vacc...-vaccines.html
post #19 of 20
Hi Emaadama
W/ reference to placebos, many papers compare two vaccines or a vaccine vs the liquid the vaccine is suspended in. This is because the researchers wanted to assess the safety and efficacy of the vaccine itself when the other vaccine or carrier liquid has been well studied. Most of these papers do (and all of them should) refer to the previous data supporting the safety and efficacy of the controls tehy use if they are not saline.

The use of saline or sugar controls is used however, particularly when novel vaccines are introduced, such as this study, or when vaccines are introduced into less studied groups as in this study looking at children. Any of these experiments test both the efficacy and the safety of a vaccine by looking at different endpoints (the change in the number of people that get the flu and the other symptoms people have), and most studies build on data from many previous studies. This brings up the importance of looking at many of the studies before coming to a decision about a particular vaccine or procedure.

Assessing the long term effects of anything is a real problem in medicine (the studies above only follow individuals for a few weeks to months). The big question is how long should we withhold a potentially effective treatment to make sure there are no, or an acceptable amount of, side effects? In the US drugs are tested in stages, starting out with animal models, then small groups of people and finally 100-1000s of people in stage III trials (Wikipedia has a good page describing this). Generally this process takes around 10 years and generally tracks the people in the studies over the whole time (note that papers are published at each stage so looking at a paper from a stage 1 clinical trial will likely only be a few weeks to months of observation.

This still doesn't account for potential problems in subsets of people, or drug interactions, post clinical observational studies are used. In the US and in the case of vaccines this is done by the CDC, which makes public the listing.
This brings us to aluminum. Ema adama, you are right, as far as I can tell, that the FDA approved its use without clinical trials. It’s used prior to the establishment of modern clinical trials allowed it to be grandfathered in, along with many other things like aspirin, morphine, and the homeopathic pharmacopoeia. You mention that there is no evidence that injecting aluminum is safe, however I would disagree. Here are many trials testing both the safety and efficacy of aluminum as an adjuvant here are the first few I pulled up with a simple Medline search:

S Westin, Reactions after triple vaccination in a child care clinic (with and without aluminum phosphate vehicle), Svensk Lakartidn 61 (1964), pp. 2438–2442.
WL Burland, WM Sutcliffe and MA Voyce et al., Reactions to combined diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccine: a comparison between plain vaccine and vaccine adsorbed onto aluminium hydroxide, Med Offr 94 (1968), pp. 17–19.

Again, there is the problem of long term outcomes. Because aluminum has been used as an adjuvant for over 80 years, many epidemelogical studies have been done looking at groups of people who received the aluminum conaining vaccines vs those that did not For instance:

I certainly do not mean to imply that there are not adverse reactions to aluminimum, as with any medical treatment there are problems. The most common with aluminum seems to be increased irritation around the site of injection. Problems with aluminum given orally to people with renal problems has led to neurological problems, but only during long term use. As to the link with alzheimers, both mainstream medicine and avocacy groups ,who have studied the topic much more than myself, do not see a link.

To answer your question about my feeling on safety, I do, in general, support what is deemed safe in medicine. This however this is one of the hardest questions to assess. There is no treatment I know of that is without some risk, and no clinician that is infallible, so the decision to use or not use a medical intervention must be based on the benefits vs risks of the treatment.

Vaccines, especially those that have been used for years, have a lot of data from independent sources suggesting that the risk is low, and the comparative risk associated with contracting diseases such as mumps, measles etc. is higher. So I choose to vaccinate myself and my daughter.

In the case of vaccines the question has the additional complexity of disease transmission. Getting vaccinated helps to keep others from getting sick because if you can’t get the disease you can’t spread it to others, so even if your healthy enough that getting the flu is very unlikely to kill you, you are indirectly helping others. I worked in direct care of immumocompromised children, some of whom had too weak of an immune system to respond to vaccines and relied on the immunization of others to protect them, its those kids I think of when I get my flu shot.
post #20 of 20
tessesdad - thank you for such a long and detailed response. I think that I can learn a lot from you.

Quote:
Any of these experiments test both the efficacy and the safety of a vaccine by looking at different endpoints (the change in the number of people that get the flu and the other symptoms people have), and most studies build on data from many previous studies.
I get that the efficacy is being tested and that the immediate safety is being tested, as in you don't have 1 in 100 dropping dead after the vaccine. I would not use those trials as evidence for the long term safety - which is a concern of mine.

Quote:
This still doesn't account for potential problems in subsets of people, or drug interactions, post clinical observational studies are used. In the US and in the case of vaccines this is done by the CDC, which makes public the listing.
I think that is my concern with vaccines. I suspect that there are a subset of children who are at risk for adverse events, and as of yet there is no public discourse about these children, how to identify them and protect them. I do not see evidence for every child being harmed by vaccines. It seems to be that many children can be vacccinated and they will not be adversly affected. However, I think there is a higher than one in a million chance of an adverse event. And I see a tendency to deny any adverse event at pretty much any cost.

Without an understanding of how vaccines work in the body beyond the development of antibodies, it is impossible to be looking for all the adverse events. It seems the scientific community do not know what to look for yet.

Quote:
S Westin, Reactions after triple vaccination in a child care clinic (with and without aluminum phosphate vehicle), Svensk Lakartidn 61 (1964), pp. 2438–2442.
WL Burland, WM Sutcliffe and MA Voyce et al., Reactions to combined diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccine: a comparison between plain vaccine and vaccine adsorbed onto aluminium hydroxide, Med Offr 94 (1968), pp. 17–19.
I was unable to find either study online, so I cannot read more about how safety was defined and measured. I am guessing it was not assessed for more than a couple of weeks. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Again, there is the problem of long term outcomes. Because aluminum has been used as an adjuvant for over 80 years, many epidemelogical studies have been done looking at groups of people who received the aluminum conaining vaccines vs those that did not For instance:
That meta-analysis does seem encouraging. Although it does end on a strange note. Are you aware of other scientific disciplines that conclude studies with:
Quote:
Despite a lack of good-quality evidence we do not recommend that any further research on this topic is undertaken.
Does that not get your attention? Or raise any concerns for you?

I guess as a parent I would be happier to see studies that have measured how much aluminium was injected and how much was excreted and try to find where the amounts that were not excreted are being stored and what they do in the long term (if it is not all excreted that is). Essentially the metabolosim of injected aluminium. The same would be nice for mercury, and pretty much all the vaccine ingredients. But I know that is wishful thinking. For now the assumption seems to be that it is safe in the long term.

Quote:
To answer your question about my feeling on safety, I do, in general, support what is deemed safe in medicine. This however this is one of the hardest questions to assess. There is no treatment I know of that is without some risk, and no clinician that is infallible, so the decision to use or not use a medical intervention must be based on the benefits vs risks of the treatment.
It is one of the hardest, and as a mother I grapple with this pretty much daily. When it comes down to it, nothing is risk free. My concern with making a risk benefit assessment on vaccines is that the information available is heavily in favour of the risk of the disease and the benefit of the vaccine. There does not seem to be a level headed conversation about the details of the disease. Just because it is fatal for some people, doesn't mean everyone needs to be in fear of their lives. And just because there are no serisous studies on the long term safety of vaccines and the metabolism of the vaccine ingredients, does not mean the risks of the vaccines can be discounted. .

Quote:
In the case of vaccines the question has the additional complexity of disease transmission. Getting vaccinated helps to keep others from getting sick because if you can’t get the disease you can’t spread it to others, so even if your healthy enough that getting the flu is very unlikely to kill you, you are indirectly helping others.
I am not sure if you are referring to each and every vaccine here. From what I have read it is not that straight forward. ie vacccine stops transmission in it's tracks for each and every vaccine. However, this post is long enough and there is much that you can read here in the archives if you are truly interested.
I cannot fault you for being prepared to take a personal medical risk to protect those who are immune compromised. That is your call. Are you implying that this should be the same choice for every other person?
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