How would you cope with a 7 year old who did things like this

[choochootrain]

1. 7YO: "Mom, look at this coin, isn't it pretty?"
Me: "it is a cool one."
4YO brother: "Can I see?"
7YO: "NOOOOO! No you can't! Don't touch! Don't touch it!"


2. 7YO: "Brother, wanna play fairies?"
4YO: "YES!"
"Wanna be a white dove?"
"I want to be a blue dove!"
"Noooooo! I will never play with you again! Mom! He doesn't want to be a white dove!"--Storms out in whining loudely.

3. Typically starts talking when her brother is talking to me. I remind her not to interrupt and let him finish. When I ask her what was her question, she starts whining dramatically, telling me she already forgot and it was all my and the brother's fault.

4. If her brother interrupts when she is talking, she makes a huge fuss, whining loudely and storming out, even if I remind him not to interrupt.

Interestingly, when he interrupts, he usually contributes to the conversation, but doesn't always wait for his turn. When she interrupts, it is usually a completely different topic--she is not listening when her brother is talking and rarely contributes. I do try to explain the difference to her, and that when people talk, interruptions happen, but her reactions are still whiney.

The examples above are habitual, happen several times a day, and wear me out to a great extent. I feel I'm constantly saying things like, "DD, you asked me to look at your coin, now your brother wants to look too. If you show something to someone in a group, the others want to see it too. How would you feel on his spot?" Or some variation of this.

Or "When you play pretend, it is okay for others to pretend how they look, as long that they are still playing the same thing that got started. Doves can be many colours. He still wants to play with you, but he wants to pretend he is green, not white. It is up to him, like it is up to you when you choose to play fairies."

But the truth is that by the end of the day, i feel so emotionally worn out. I end being short with her, and tell her, "Just let him look at the coing! he's not even touching it! Why on earth can't he look at the coin?" or "you can't control the imaginary color of your imaginary dove !"

Or even "If you are not ready to be social, just go to your room! If you are making a fuss because he looked at a coin, this is not social! "

After long streaks of being patient, I get irked and upset. I feel I'm constantly against the current, with not a moment to rest. I'm emotionally exhausted.

I wish I could take this with humour. Can I learn this? Like when she says to her brother "No, you can't even LOOK at the coin!" if only I could not be so serious and irked. What If I could discharge the situation with something funny and light. I don't even know if this would work, but maybe. I get so tense myself, I can't even joke about it.

[Cavy]

Classic sibling rivalry stuff .
In theory, spending more 1-2-1 time w/ the 7yo might sort it.

Does Ur 4yo react by screaming, kicking things, throwing & trying 2 break things? (my 5yo does all that, sigh).

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

1. I feel I'm constantly saying things like, "DD, you asked me to look at your coin, now your brother wants to look too. If you show something to someone in a group, the others want to see it too. How would you feel on his spot?" Or some variation of this.

Or "When you play pretend, it is okay for others to pretend how they look, as long that they are still playing the same thing that got started. Doves can be many colours. He still wants to play with you, but he wants to pretend he is green, not white. It is up to him, like it is up to you when you choose to play fairies.".

My first thought is that this is too much talking. My daughter doesn't have the exact triggers you are describing here, but she does have her triggers (like people talking/singing/living while she is trying to read in the family space ).

For me, and for her, it is important for my responses to be short and to the point. Sort of "canned" responses that she soon recognizes. In our situation it is "We are playing here. It is quiet in your room."

So, for your situation, maybe "If you are showing your coin, your brother can see, too." and "You choose your color, he chooses his." Rinse and repeat, with no acknowledgement of the drama. Use calmer moments, when you are alone together, to talk about her brother frustrations and discuss better strategies.

[denimtiger]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

My first thought is that this is too much talking. My daughter doesn't have the exact triggers you are describing here, but she does have her triggers (like people talking/singing/living while she is trying to read in the family space ).

For me, and for her, it is important for my responses to be short and to the point. Sort of "canned" responses that she soon recognizes. In our situation it is "We are playing here. It is quiet in your room."

So, for your situation, maybe "If you are showing your coin, your brother can see, too." and "You choose your color, he chooses his." Rinse and repeat, with no acknowledgement of the drama. Use calmer moments, when you are alone together, to talk about her brother frustrations and discuss better strategies.

I agree with a lot of this. At seven, a lot of her behavior is just not socially acceptable, and it is okay to just not accept it, and I would send her to be alone until she is in a frame of mind to be socially acceptable.

I would try spending some quality one-on-one time without the brother anywhere around, and give her a chance to let off some steam about it/talk about what bugs her about her brother and plenty of time NOT talking about it, and just letting her have her space with you.

BUT, when she behaves rudely like that, I don't personally see anything wrong with letting a child that age know it's rude/hurtful, and removing her from the situation until she is ready to be respectful of everyone. And I agree with the short, to the point canned answers.

The coin... "honey, it's rude to talk like that to people, it hurts their feelings. There are no people in your room. Feel free to join us again when you're ready to be respectful to everyone."

The dove... totally agree with "you pick your color, he can pick his." If she pitches a fit you again go with "it's disruptive to people when you behave like that in front of them. Please go to your room and join us again when you're behaving in a respectful way." If she does handle it gracefully, comment a few minutes later on how much fun they look like they're having and compliment her color choice of dove before his.

With the interrupting, I would role-play socially acceptable responses to interrupting scenarios. When she doesn't follow them, give her gentle reminders, but send the dramatic fits where they belong -- a quiet, private place where they can burn themselves out without disrupting anyone else.

If she pitches a fit when her brother interrupts, let her storm out and ignore it as best you can, unless she stays in front of you to throw the fit... then remove it to her room.

If you do send her to her room, and she does return in a more respectful fashion (even very slightly more respectful at first!), I would make sure to welcome her back with no fanfare or discussion of the incident right then. "Hey, sweetie, want to read a book with me/help me peel carrots/take a turn on the computer..." whatever would be peaceful and allow her to reintegrate into the family situation without causing embarrassment or giving attention to what happened before. If you do discuss incidents with her, do it in a calm, approachable moment well separated from the incident. Give her practice in how to remove herself, and come gracefully back and without having feelings that you're still angry or resentful.

[confustication]

I'm beginning to feel like 6-7 was the hardest time with dd just because of things like this. They irritate *me* much more than a tantruming toddler or something similar because she KNOWS better... I sometimes have to take a deep breath and remember that she's still learning to impliment the behaviors she knows are right, and at seven, they don't always have the tools when they're jealous/tired/frustrated to pull it all together.

I absolutely agree that asking her to go to her room until she can behave in a socially acceptable manner would be a good response. I think that at her age, when you explain, you're explaining things she already knows. I also know that my seven year old THRIVES on the drama, so when I manage to keep discussion to a minimum, we accomplish a lot more.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

"If you are showing your coin, your brother can see, too." .

Better yet, "Everyone can see."

[choochootrain]

thanks, guys! awesome tips and i feel so much better now! i was so down about this, i wasn't even seeing the bigger picture. yes, she knows better, but can't use her tools at all times yet. this was almost a revelation to me! i feel much more accepting of her now. and yes, a tantruming toddler is so so so much easier!

[Cavy]

Try 2 get Siblings Without Rivalry book by Faber & Mazlish, I think it might just what U need.

[zensven42]

Well I would ignore most of the behavior if it is not disrupting you. If the child is being whiny or nasty, you do not engage them or try to make things better for them. You just let them know that you will talk to them when they decide to act nicely. For example #1. When the child starts melting down about the coin, I would just say that is a nice coin, it would be nice if you shared with your brother, but you understand if they are not in a sharing mood right now. Then go back to your own business.

For #2, just do not get involved with the older one's drama. Let them be miserable and not play with the younger child if they don't want to. They stormed out, so you guys just calmly go back to your business. If the younger one is upset about it, just explain that the older child wanted to play a certain way, but got mad about it and left, that is their problem, and the younger one did nothing wrong.

As for the interruptions, you do a good job of just stating that you are talking to someone else right now and to wait their turn. You can certainly commiserate with the older child that they forgot what they wanted to say, and how frustrating that must be, would they like suggestions on how to remember. You could suggest they write it down so they don't forget, or ask them if they can find a good solution, but that tantrums and interruptions are simply not acceptable.

It sounds like there is too much emotional type fighting going on, where the child has a hold of your emotions, and tries to dump on you. You need to free yourself from your child's emotional control. This does not mean that you need to be callous or uncaring, but more that you show that you can control your own emotions and the child is only making themselves miserable. Be sure to let them know you love them and give lots of hugs, give lots of emotions and attention to the good stuff, but do not give any to the bad stuff. They will soon figure out that the way to get what they want is by acting properly.

Here is a good website. They have a nice newsletter too.

http://www.celebratecalm.com/ I know it is about add/adhd, but is good for all families in general.

[momofmine]

When my older one is acting out like that, I cannot imagine telling him to go to his room until he was ready to act a certain way. First, he simply wouldn't do it, and the whole thing would just escalate. Because he is reacting emotionally, and he needs help dealing with big emotions in that moment. I guess some kids respond to the whole idea of having some alone time until they can return themselves to a state of calm, but that is not my child. If I were really upset about something I deemed unfair, unjust, ridiculous, etc, I would not appreciate my husband telling me to go to my room until I could talk nicely about it. That would just fuel me up even more. Since you mentioned you wanted to explore having a different perspective when it happens, have you ever seen the Daily Groove emails? They are a cool way to get a daily recharge of having a different perspective. It is so hard at times to not get angry, and it's not about suppressing you own anger, but about about choosing joy instead and waiting expectantly for what you know can happen. Easier said than done at times, I know! Good luck!

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by momofmine

If I were really upset about something I deemed unfair, unjust, ridiculous, etc, I would not appreciate my husband telling me to go to my room until I could talk nicely about it. That would just fuel me up even more.

I would enforce the same boundary with an adult who was out of control with anger. It is completely appropriate to insist on respectful communication and self control, even when the other party is angry. It is also appropriate to teach our children to, and how to, enforce that boundary. Another important part is teaching our dc to express their anger respectfully and with self control. (eta...it looks more like "I will speak to you about this when you are calm." than "go to your room". I will, however, ask my dc to go to her room if she is acting unsafely).

Not all children are the same. For my child, however, an important step in learning self control was me believing she could have self control. And then I communicated to her that she could have self control, and that I expected it from her.

[momofmine]

I see what you are saying, but "storming off because little brother doesn't want to be a certain color dove" doesn't sound like out of control anger to me, it just sounds like expression of very real frustration. And her perspective, in that moment, is her reality. And I would not expect a 7 yr old to be able to act as an adult might be able to.

All I am saying is that it helps me to think about it from a perspective that, in that moment, the child still needs help processing big emotions. And not from the perspective of needing to teach my child to "act in a socially acceptable way". Because when I think in terms of what society deems acceptable, I am ignoring the individual developmental ability of my child at that moment in time. Of course, the hope is that you can ultimately help them to act in socially acceptable ways, but not through a process of rejecting someone until they can act nice. To me, that teaches a child to suppress an emotion for the sake of others.

One suggestion I read from Naomi Aldort (which a great book btw is Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves) was that if a child was upset, angry, frustrated, and the anger was being directed at the other child, take the angry child to another room and allow her to process her big emotions there, with you, in whatever way they need to. If they need to get really mad and let it out, that's fine, but we don't do it to the person because that might be hurtful. We still have a right to how we feel. So, instead of sending the child to their room, where you are essentially saying, your emotions and feelings are not acceptable, and we will not be around you until you can get a hold of yourself and act nice, instead you are helping the child to process the emotions, while feeling accepted and understood. It's a gray area, I know, but I think there is a difference.

I certainly have times where I have been so frustrated at something that I was stomping my feet and grumbling, and it wasn't necessarily directed at anyone, just at the general situation. In fact, I have scribbled several angry notes to my husband over the many years we've been married when I was just so frustrated over an argument that I just wanted to scream. Now, I would never have shown him the notes, because they were just a way for me to process my "big" emotions at that moment in time. It was just cathartic to write it out like that, and even cathartic later to rip them up and throw them away.

Another thing that has helped me in dealing with other people's "big" emotions is to know that anger is ALWAYS a secondary emotion. I don't know where that concept came from, but someone shared that with me long ago, and it is very true. There is always another emotion under the anger. The anger is just a secondary expression. It is often fear (fear of being rejected, fear of losing something, fear of losing control, jealousy maybe, etc) but there is always something else there. When you can see the other feeling that might be there, it helps me have more compassion and understanding. (Yes, easier said than done, for me at least, but it does help.)

Good luck!

[Cavy]

Originally Posted by momofmine

One suggestion I read from Naomi Aldort...was that if a child was upset, angry, frustrated, and the anger was being directed at the other child, take the angry child to another room and allow her to process her big emotions there, with you, in whatever way they need to. If they need to get really mad and let it out, that's fine, but we don't do it to the person because that might be hurtful.

That would never work in my house, lol.
Exactly WHO would be supervising my other DC while I was letting angry child express their fury?

And The intended victim of the rage would take great offense at me spending 1-2-1 time with Angry Child.
"Why are you being nice to him and horrible to me?! He was nasty to me so why are You spending time with him?"

And my younger (under 6yo) clingiest children simply would howl at the prospect of not being allowed instant access to me.

Not having a Go at U, MomOfMine, just noting that textook solutions can b so completely impossible in real life.

[confustication]

Originally Posted by Cavy

That would never work in my house, lol.
Exactly WHO would be supervising my other DC while I was letting angry child express their fury?

And The intended victim of the rage would take great offense at me spending 1-2-1 time with Angry Child.
"Why are you being nice to him and horrible to me?! He was nasty to me so why are You spending time with him?"

And my younger (under 6yo) clingiest children simply would howl at the prospect of not being allowed instant access to me.

Not having a Go at U, MomOfMine, just noting that textook solutions can b so completely impossible in real life.

It wouldn't work here either. I would expect my husband to leave the room or walk away from us instead of venting his frustrations at us (inappropriately- stomping, screaming, etc are not appropriate choices in this household- for any of us) and I expect the same of my children. My seven year old is perfectly capable of understanding that there are ok ways to voice frustration, and approaches that aren't ok. If you can't behave in an acceptable manner, you can step away from the rest of us until you regain the self control needed to do so, at which point you are welcomed back without hesitation.

[Just1More]

Love this...I'm going to try to remember it:

[/QUOTE]
Another thing that has helped me in dealing with other people's "big" emotions is to know that anger is ALWAYS a secondary emotion. I don't know where that concept came from, but someone shared that with me long ago, and it is very true. There is always another emotion under the anger. The anger is just a secondary expression. It is often fear (fear of being rejected, fear of losing something, fear of losing control, jealousy maybe, etc) but there is always something else there. When you can see the other feeling that might be there, it helps me have more compassion and understanding. [/QUOTE]



But, I also will say that I agree with most of the pp's. I would opt to cut the drama. That even works with my two-year old. And the best way to help my 4yo is to repeat the scenerio. She truly does NOT know yet, but if we redo it, it gives her a sense of accomplishment (I CAN handle this), and helps her to learn what TO do. For some kids, it may be embarrassing/annoying to have to repeat it, and I wouldn't do it for them, but my dd is a very concrete learner and needs specific tools for specific situations. General role-playing doesn't help her much. (Like with the bird situation...she would understand that the next time they played birds he could pick, but if they were playing fairies, we would have to go over it again.)

But, anyway, in short, cut the drama. All the way around.

[Fuamami]

My dd is almost 7, and I would not, NOT, NOT make her show her brother anything.

I would address ds instead. I would say something like, "I guess she doesn't want to show you right now, but I bet she will later. It's pretty cool, really. Dd, can I describe it to ds?"

I do my darndest to stay out of their relationship, though.

In fact, I thought it was interesting that you said she would tell you that he didn't want to be a white dove. Was she looking for some sympathy? Or did she honestly expect you to get involved?

My response to that would have been, "Oh, that's too bad. You wanted him to be a white dove, huh?" probably without looking up from what I was doing.

If she interrupted, I would say, "Just a second honey, ds is telling me this very interesting story about XYZ and I really want to hear the rest of it!" Then when ds finished, I'd turn to dd and say, "Now what were you going to tell me?" If she whined and said she couldn't remember, I'd say, "OK, well let me know when you remember!"

The secret around here to good sibling relationships is to have very little invested in it. I don't really point out rude behavior, unless it's directed toward me, and I let them figure it out. They get along fabulously, BTW. Really, really well 95% of the time.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

My dd is almost 7, and I would not, NOT, NOT make her show her brother anything.

I would address ds instead. I would say something like, "I guess she doesn't want to show you right now, but I bet she will later. It's pretty cool, really. Dd, can I describe it to ds?"

I do my darndest to stay out of their relationship, though.

In fact, I thought it was interesting that you said she would tell you that he didn't want to be a white dove. Was she looking for some sympathy? Or did she honestly expect you to get involved?

My response to that would have been, "Oh, that's too bad. You wanted him to be a white dove, huh?" probably without looking up from what I was doing.

If she interrupted, I would say, "Just a second honey, ds is telling me this very interesting story about XYZ and I really want to hear the rest of it!" Then when ds finished, I'd turn to dd and say, "Now what were you going to tell me?" If she whined and said she couldn't remember, I'd say, "OK, well let me know when you remember!"

The secret around here to good sibling relationships is to have very little invested in it. I don't really point out rude behavior, unless it's directed toward me, and I let them figure it out. They get along fabulously, BTW. Really, really well 95% of the time.

This is the Siblings Without Rivalry approach, right? I haven't read the book, but I've read about the book. We fortunately don't (yet) have sibling issues here. I would probably give the strategies in the book a shot if we did have issues. But, can I ask a question?

Why, exactly, are sibling relationships different from other relationships? For example, if my 7 yo wanted to show me a cool thing, but not to her grandmother or friend who asks to see, sitting next to me, that would not be acceptable to me. At age 3 I'd say something like "I bet she'll show it later", but not at 7. I wouldn't force her to show it, but I would ask her to put it away, or put it away myself, if she rudely refused to show the others. I think the behavior should be addressed in those situations (my opinion), so why shouldn't it be addressed in a sibling situation? I don't really get it

I can't imagine asking my 7 yo permission to describe an object to her brother

[beanma]

I have a 8 yr old and a 5 yr old so I've BTDT. What I would do with the coin incident is tell dd1 that it was NOT ACCEPTABLE to refuse to show it to dd2. I'd tell her she was behaving very rudely and she needed to let her look at it. She doesn't need to let her hold it if she doesn't want to, but she does need to let her see it with her eyes. If she wants to show something only to one person she needs to wait until she's alone with that person, otherwise it's rude and might make the other person feel really excluded and left out and that's a rotten feeling.

With the white dove/blue dove situation (more common in our house) I'd ask them if they needed help working it out or if they wanted me to decide for them. Then I'd step back. They almost always choose to work it out themselves. I wouldn't call dd1 out on being bossy and trying to dictate play, although, obviously that's what she's doing. I might reframe the situation and outline the problem, though. "It sounds like dd2 wants to be a blue dove, and dd1 you were thinking that you'd like to have a white dove in the game. Can y'all work this out or do you need me to help you?" We've done a lot of "problem solving" ala "How To Talk..." and "The Explosive Child" so they're familiar with this approach. They can brainstorm some solutions. Dd2 might decide she doesn't mind not being a blue dove or they might decide that they want to play something else or dd1 might decide a blue dove is fine. I'll monitor and if I think dd1 is taking advantage of dd2 I'll say something like, "It sounds like y'all are having a hard time working this out. How 'bout we have a snack instead." Or if I'm feeling snarky I might ask them to do some chores.

With the interrupting, I would stick with one approach in all situations as much as I could even if dd1's being whiny. "Dd1, please wait a minute, dd2 is talking now. *pause* Okay, dd1, what's up?" likewise, "Dd2, you need to wait, please dd1 is talking now." Or, even, "I can't hear if both of you are talking at once. [interrupter] wait just a minute."

hth, I think it's normal. 1 on 1 time with your 7 yr old might help if you can work it out, but it's very normal.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

This is the Siblings Without Rivalry approach, right? I haven't read the book, but I've read about the book. We fortunately don't (yet) have sibling issues here. I would probably give the strategies in the book a shot if we did have issues. But, can I ask a question?

Sort of. I don't do as much empathizing as they recommend, and I don't handle physical conflicts the way they recommend, either. But I do agree that their relationship is none of my business.

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Why, exactly, are sibling relationships different from other relationships? For example, if my 7 yo wanted to show me a cool thing, but not to her grandmother or friend who asks to see, sitting next to me, that would not be acceptable to me. At age 3 I'd say something like "I bet she'll show it later", but not at 7. I wouldn't force her to show it, but I would ask her to put it away, or put it away myself, if she rudely refused to show the others. I think the behavior should be addressed in those situations (my opinion), so why shouldn't it be addressed in a sibling situation? I don't really get it

I can't imagine asking my 7 yo permission to describe an object to her brother

Because my dd would never refuse to show it to a gmother or a friend. I don't know if she would really refuse to show it to her brother, but she might. And I would ask her if I could describe it because it might be something she wants kept private. She shares a room and a house with her brother, and he's always around in her hair. It is rare that I am available alone, so if she wants to show something to me or have a private moment with me, or just not have him involved in her conversation, I respect that.

[One_Girl]

Sibling relationships are different, siblings aren't friends and they didn't choose each other and they are often on different developmental levels. I hated it when my mom pushed me to get close to my brother and take on responsibility for his happiness. He was the intruder who my mom had because she wanted a boy. Adult family members tend to be kind and friends are our choice, siblings are annoying and always there taking time and getting better treatment (no matter which child you ask).

It sounds like your dd is seriously annoyed with her brother and needs space from him. I don't think forcing things or punishing her by taking her things is going to increase the love there. I really think it is great that you respect her right to those feelings and understand how trying a younger sibling can be.