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UK Case - interesting implications - Page 2

post #21 of 34
I know we have at a few attorneys among us, what do you all think of the merits of the case? I realize we have few details but it would be interesting to kick this question around.
post #22 of 34
There actually have been successful lawsuits in this country brought by men when they were of legal age to sue on their own behalf (there is a statute of limitations for tort cases, so they have to sue within two or three years, generally, of attaining their legal majority).

The problem is, these cases (if they resulted in judgments rather than settlements and result in the creation of new legal holdings) don't bind any courts except the ones they're issued in. So, for example, a state district court decision would only bind future decisions in the same state district court. An appellate level decision at the state court level would only bind the districts under the appeals court. The supreme court of the state would only bind the state's district and appellate courts.

And it's similar at the federal level. The only decisions that bind every court in the country, whether state or federal, are US Supreme Court decisions.

ETA: my point here -- the more suits brought and won, the better, because then more precedents are set and it also gives courts in different jurisdictions a leg to stand on when making new law for their jurisdictions (they can use decisions from out of their jurisdictions as guidance and support, even if those decisions aren't binding precedent).

As far as the 14th Amendment -- I'm not aware of any credible legal authority that deems the 14th Amendment non-binding. It is part of our Constitution and there have been many, many Supreme Court cases applying the 14th Amendment, and not one has ever found it illegitimate or in conflict with another part of the Constitution or that it was not added to the Constitution in a legitimate way. Honestly that is a crackpot argument, that it's not legit.

As far as it applying to protect boys because of the FGM bill, though -- that's simply not how the 14th Amendment works. There is no good legal argument under the 14th Amendment that boys are denied equal protection because of the FGM bill.

I've written about this issue before in these threads:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ual+protection

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ual+protection

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ual+protection

My personal opinion as an attorney is that more suits should be brought by individuals against their circumcisers. When it becomes clear to doctors that they will have liability 18-21 years after they circ a baby, that circumcision fee will start to look a lot less attractive. Money talks, and the prospect of having to pay a lot of money down the road when one might otherwise be contemplating retirement, is going to convince a lot more doctors than appeals to their ethical standards.

I would rather see intactivists put the work into finding the right clients, developing these tort cases, and taking them all the way to the end (i.e. judgments rather than settlements, so that some precedents are set), than barking up the tree of either challenging the FGM bill (which is not going to get protection for boys) or passing an MGM bill (which I believe is a political non-starter).
post #23 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrestorm View Post

2. I believe in a lot of cases it was done without consent (not in this case necessarily - but in the late 60's and 70's it was just part of the newborn procedures)
Not in England. Circ went out of favour in the 1940s with the start of the NHS, which didn't cover it.
post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
There actually have been successful lawsuits in this country brought by men when they were of legal age to sue on their own behalf (there is a statute of limitations for tort cases, so they have to sue within two or three years, generally, of attaining their legal majority).

...

I would rather see intactivists put the work into finding the right clients, developing these tort cases, and taking them all the way to the end (i.e. judgments rather than settlements, so that some precedents are set), than barking up the tree of either challenging the FGM bill (which is not going to get protection for boys) or passing an MGM bill (which I believe is a political non-starter).

Quirky, let's table the equal protection discussion for a second and take a different route. Could this individual file a suit for a battery? Margaret Somerville discussed such a situation here: http://www.courtchallenge.com/letters/somer1.html calling it assault rather then a battery. I understand that in some jurisdictions the terms are interchangeable but that aside, in the general case, is there a case for a battery charge? Why or Why not?
post #25 of 34
The type of civil case I'm talking about would be a tort case for battery. In US common law assault means the fear of imminent bodily harm being inflicted by someone else but the battery is itself the unlawful touching. A criminal case would have to be brought by the government at whatever level; the civil side tort equivalent is for battery.

A medical procedure, if proper consent is not obtained, is a battery. That's why we sign consent forms. The question in the circumcision case is whether the consent was sufficient to remove the unconsented-to element that makes a touching a battery.
post #26 of 34
You can donate to that organization to help promote this specific case. The donation thing is on their website, www.norm.uk
post #27 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
T
A medical procedure, if proper consent is not obtained, is a battery. That's why we sign consent forms.
That's interesting...When I had my section (by threatened court order) I could not get criminal charges pressed...I was able to sue for battery and sexual battery though.
post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
The type of civil case I'm talking about would be a tort case for battery. In US common law assault means the fear of imminent bodily harm being inflicted by someone else but the battery is itself the unlawful touching. A criminal case would have to be brought by the government at whatever level; the civil side tort equivalent is for battery.

A medical procedure, if proper consent is not obtained, is a battery. That's why we sign consent forms. The question in the circumcision case is whether the consent was sufficient to remove the unconsented-to element that makes a touching a battery.
Which is exactly how I was thinking. The question then becomes is proxy consent valid for a procedure that is not medically necessary. I guess I am preaching to the choir but I would say no. Somerville's legal opinion (which I linked to earlier) seems correct to me.

So Quriky, from a legal point of view a battery charge could be brought by any circumcised male within a few years of their 18th birthday? Also can't it also be a crime as well as a tort? If so could the 18 year old file a criminal complaint too?
post #29 of 34
As a civil case the plaintiff is the man who was circed, and he can control the case. I suppose he could try to press criminal charges, but since to convict of a crime the standard of proof is higher (beyond a reasonable doubt), I think you'd have a much, much harder time convincing a prosecutor to bring a case. I think most medical malpractice suits are brought through the civil court system -- I can't swear to it for sure but I'm not aware that med mal cases ever get brought as criminal cases. If there's something else going on that led to the med mal -- drug use, illegal license, then you might get the prosecutor's office involved but at the end of the day the prosecutors have discretion over what cases to bring and they're all pretty darned overworked as it is. So when they have murders, assaults, illegal drugs, rapes, etc. happening in real time to prosecute, I doubt very much a prosecutor would give the time of day to an adult circed as a baby.
post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post

My personal opinion as an attorney is that more suits should be brought by individuals against their circumcisers . . .

I would rather see intactivists put the work into finding the right clients, developing these tort cases, and taking them all the way to the end (i.e. judgments rather than settlements, so that some precedents are set) . . .
Can you refresh our (or maybe just my) memory on what characteristics the right client will have?

Thanks,
post #31 of 34
The right client has to be of an age to sue in his own capacity and within the statute of limitations period for his state's tort laws. Access to hospital records with the "informed" consent forms. Preferably cooperative parents who are willing to be deposed about how little information they were given before signing their son up for cosmetic surgery. A circumciser who's still alive and can be named as an individual defendant.

I'm not a personal injury/medical malpractice attorney, so that's just off the top of my head, considering the procedural barriers that can get cases dismissed easily (such as not being within the relevant statute of limitations).
post #32 of 34
I represented William Stowell in his case against his circumciser and the hospital where it was done. You can find some of the resulting media interviews on youtube. Those cases were resolved without trial. In that case his mom had not wanted to consent but was apparently handed a consent form while she was under the influence of drugs from a C section. We pleaded lack of consent due to incapacity. We also alleged in the alternative that any parental consent was invalid. That issue was never reached by the court.

There are lots of other young men who would like to sue. But funds are needed for such risky cases, which don't lend themselves to contingent fee arrangements. Any potential big donors out there? If so, PM me.
post #33 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2GA View Post
I represented William Stowell in his case against his circumciser and the hospital where it was done. You can find some of the resulting media interviews on youtube. Those cases were resolved without trial. In that case his mom had not wanted to consent but was apparently handed a consent form while she was under the influence of drugs from a C section. We pleaded lack of consent due to incapacity. We also alleged in the alternative that any parental consent was invalid. That issue was never reached by the court.

There are lots of other young men who would like to sue. But funds are needed for such risky cases, which don't lend themselves to contingent fee arrangements. Any potential big donors out there? If so, PM me.
I heard and read about that case. I think the problem with that one was that it was argued and won on the fact that the mother didn't want to give consent rather then the fact that the individual didn't approve of the consent. I could see the case being easier to win if the parents took that position but I am less certain that the judge or jury would be as sympathetic to a plaintiff in the later case. The later case would also make for a stronger statement, even though any case along these lines is a good thing.

BTW, how often are you approached for this kind of case?
post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
As far as the 14th Amendment -- I'm not aware of any credible legal authority that deems the 14th Amendment non-binding. It is part of our Constitution and there have been many, many Supreme Court cases applying the 14th Amendment, and not one has ever found it illegitimate or in conflict with another part of the Constitution or that it was not added to the Constitution in a legitimate way. Honestly that is a crackpot argument, that it's not legit.
I just did some more digging and it turned out that the reason the Fourteenth Amendment is (or was) controversial is because a handful of states failed to ratify it, which has been interpreted under the two-thirds rule as a failure to ratify. (Said states have all since fixed the situation, but not fast enough.)
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