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post #101 of 260
Quote:
but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need.
Deffiently and I can't my self imangine ingnoring such a cue with any child of mine. I didn't have that matter of fact I had the opposite the one that reacted vilently and terrified if I tried working on having her eliminate over a potty sink ect. One that truly did not give any signs and one that actually PT quite late because her body simpily did not process those signals in a normal way.
Deanna
post #102 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proud2BeAnAmerican View Post
Perhaps someone could post a brief definition of what EC is supposed to be if it isn't watching for signals? Diaperfreebaby says, "The process involves observing one's baby's signs and signals, providing cue sounds and elimination-place associations, and can be done with or without any diaper use."

I've read quite a bit about it myself and it wasn't something that I though was really important to focus on when I have so many other important things to focus on like breastfeeding and homeschooling.
great question. "observing" and "obsessively watching all day long" are not at all the same thing. do you obsessively watch your baby all day long to discover when s/he wants to nurse? no, they start to root around and chew on their hand (or whatever it is your baby does.... each baby communicates this needs in their own way) and then you nurse them. maybe you can't nurse them right away (you're in the car and can't pull over, etc) so perhaps you let them suck on your finger or a paci or something until you're able to nurse. do you obsessively stare at your child all day long wondering if they are sleepy and ready to take a nap? i hope not probably you watch for signs like rubbing eyes or fussing in that tired way or whatever it is your child does when they are tired, and then you put them to sleep. if you can't right away, you don't, and you do it as soon as possible.

it is the exact same thing with elimination, another basic biological need just like eating and sleeping. you go about your day, doing whatever it is you are doing. then your baby signals that they have to go... depending on the individual baby and the age of said baby, those signals can be different, but just as obvious as the BF'ing and sleeping ones when you know what to look for. so if you're able to get to a toilet you do. and you signal to them when they are peeing or pooing (making a sound like "psssss" is a popular one) so they can connect the feeling of going with the sound. and if you can't make it to a toilet you tell the baby to use the diaper and you change baby as soon as possible. maybe the baby is really engrossed in something else (like chewing on a block) and they don't notice that they have to go, and pee in their diaper. most EC'ers use non-waterproof diapers so they know right away and can change the diaper immediately. thus the baby never gets comfortable with being wet, or learns to disassociate the feelings of needing to pee with peeing. in addition the baby builds their sphincter muscles so gradually they pee and poo less frequently, can hold it for longer, and go in larger volume when they do go... all of which is a natural biological progression of development, and which varies greatly from baby to baby - just as the sucking need or sleeping needs of individual babies varies greatly.

many babies also eliminate at pretty regular intervals (upon waking, a certain amount of time after nursing/eating, every xx minutes/hours during the day). so you can also offer when you feel it's likely to be needed, or at convenient times like when you or an older child need to use the toilet, right before you leave the house or as soon as you arrive somewhere after being in the car a while, just as you would yourself or with an older child. this is where the signaling from the parent comes in handy, as they can usually release on cue if they have any need to go at all (just as you can make yourself pee before a long car trip even though you don't really have to).

just like other biological needs, babies express them, and just like other biological needs there are moments when the need is inconvenient (baby needs to nurse and you're on the road with nowhere to pull over, baby is ready for a nap and you're halfway through the grocery store). but for the most part it just becomes a regular part of your daily life. not something you even really think about, let alone obsess over all day long.
post #103 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
Okay, maybe I am truly mis-informed after all because I think comparing EC to breastfeeding, CIO, and now circumcision is extreme.
I agree. Extreme to the point of seeming, well, uneducated

And to the poster who said that as a CD Mama I "Ignored my childs toileting needs" ~ I'm cracking up. I provided wonderfully for their needs with a lovely soft organic cloth diaper, which I changed post "toileting", and with much love. My children never had so much as a diaper rash as babies, and were two of the easiest, happiest babies on earth, so clearly they suffered no long term trauma from me so horribly ignoring their toileting needs.

And to those who say that they are "Lazy" and that is why you didn't EC ~ I feel the opposite. I am way way way too energetic and busy exposing my child to the world (and by exposing I don't just mean their bum) to be interested in EC. If it works for you, super.

This thread actually is serving to turn me off more to EC than "educate" me, ironically enough
post #104 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by atobols View Post
Now I'm completely confused. I thought that you could do EC and still use diapers.

I feel like I've entered the twilight zone with this thread.
diapers are used as a back-up so that if it's not possible to get to a bathroom you don't have pee and poo everywhere. they are not used as receptacles checked only at regular intervals while the baby sits in pee and poo in the interim.
post #105 of 260
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by susienjay View Post
But you make it sound like it should be easy for anyone because it was easy for you.
I never said it should be easy for anyone. I think having too much on your plate already is a fabulous reason not to worry about EC if you don't want to. In fact, I think just not wanting to is a fabulous reason not to EC. I also think it's a fine reason for not breastfeeding, BTW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lach View Post
The smugness in this thread from people who say that non-ECers are uneducated, don't care about their kids, aren't attached enough is really, really offensive.

OMG! For the fifth or sixth time, will someone PLEASE show me where anyone said any of this??

I have a feeling this thread is going to get removed soon.
post #106 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
Deffiently and I can't my self imangine ingnoring such a cue with any child of mine. I didn't have that matter of fact I had the opposite the one that reacted vilently and terrified if I tried working on having her eliminate over a potty sink ect. One that truly did not give any signs and one that actually PT quite late because her body simpily did not process those signals in a normal way.
Deanna
sounds to me like your child communicated her elimination needs quite clearly, and you respectfully responded
post #107 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
I did EC with both my kids, and I'm all for it. But I have to say, I didn't experience first-hand such a strong desire not to use a diaper. I don't think parents who don't EC are always ignoring a strong need. I think EC would probably be the best choice for most families if people only had enough information and support to make it work well for them, but I don't think NOT doing it is deeply wrong.
just to clarify, i didn't mean to infer that all parents have that experience, EC or not. i was just trying to explain the "extreme" reaction that people questioned, and how it felt for me and many others.
post #108 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
I never said it should be easy for anyone. I think having too much on your plate already is a fabulous reason not to worry about EC if you don't want to. In fact, I think just not wanting to is a fabulous reason not to EC. I also think it's a fine reason for not breastfeeding, BTW.




OMG! For the fifth or sixth time, will someone PLEASE show me where anyone said any of this??

I have a feeling this thread is going to get removed soon.
just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.
post #109 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiepunk View Post
just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.
No, you said
"it is probably impossible to understand when it is so societally normal to ignore a child's elimination needs. but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need. truly the same way i would feel about letting my baby cry because s/he was hungry when the clock didn't say it was "time" to feed her or how i might feel if i put her down in a crib to let her cry herself to sleep. my mama instinct would be screaming in my head "this is not right!"

wouldn't you feel it was wrong if an adult or an older child, who for whatever reason was not physically capable of taking themselves to the bathroom, were forced to use their pants as a toilet when they were asking for someone to help them to a bathroom and were being ignored? for a person who responds to that request from their infant all day long, it truly is horrible to consider ignoring it. when you know for sure that they are expressing a need to you, when they tell you in no uncertain terms that they need to go.... well it makes me feel sick to imagine ignoring them. yes, you have to learn the "language" of EC to hear what they are saying, but when you know it and you hear them, how can you just ignore them?"

where you used a form of the word "ignore" 6 times. If that's not judging, I don't know what is.
post #110 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiepunk View Post
the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.
I can see this point of view; but my child is developmentally entirely normal and she is happy as a clam sitting in a wet diaper. She actually starts to cry when we change her (she hates having her clothing or diaper changed).

I give her lots of diaper free time to 'air out' the area and I know she pees a little bit about every twenty minutes but I have yet to see any kind of behavioral prodrome to peeing.
post #111 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiepunk View Post
just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambera View Post
I can see this point of view; but my child is developmentally entirely normal and she is happy as a clam sitting in a wet diaper. She actually starts to cry when we change her (she hates having her clothing or diaper changed).

I give her lots of diaper free time to 'air out' the area and I know she pees a little bit about every twenty minutes but I have yet to see any kind of behavioral prodrome to peeing.


My son is 4.5, very normal, and didn't potty learn until he was 4 because he simply did not care that he was sitting in a wet diaper. He would always tell me when he had pooped, but didn't like to be changed in general and would rather be in a sopping wet diaper than stop what he was doing and have it changed.
post #112 of 260
I tried with both girls and it just didn't work for us. There is no crying or fussing or giving cues before they peed/pooped, they just did it. If I went diaper free they messed the floor unless I spent the majority of the day holding them over the toilet. Frankly, I have better things to do with my life.

I really hate the acusations that people who use diapers let their children just sit in their own waste for hours while the parents ignore their cries. My dd gets changed the second she is wet, even though it makes her angry and sitting in a wet diaper doesn't bother her at all.

I'm glad it works for some people, but it doesn't make those people more attatched or more bonded with their baby then the people who use diapers.
post #113 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

where you used a form of the word "ignore" 6 times. If that's not judging, I don't know what is.
responding to a question about why the reaction is viewed as "extreme" i explained how it would feel to me to not EC. it would feel like ignoring one of my child's basic needs, and would feel no different to me than ignoring anyone else's elimination needs. if you want to feel judged by how i feel, that's on you.

now my baby's awake and needs to pee, and my kids have come in from playing outside and want to bake cookies. so i'm going to go "ignore" this thread. please note, i am not making a judgement about this thread, nor do i find myself superior to anyone who continues to participate in it
post #114 of 260
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiepunk View Post
as for the mama who expressed that it wasn't true that all babies are aware... well, i think her experience is actually the exception that proves that rule. it is biologically normal for babies to have that awareness. just as it is biologically normal for babies to want to nurse and be able to latch onto the breast with little difficulty immediate after birth. but there are babies who can't latch. babies who don't signal when they are hungry. these are babies who have issues that need attention. this is not normal. the mama above whose baby didn't signal has autism and sensory issues. the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.
I do think that not even every biologically normal baby necessarily signals either though. Mine went through periods when he would not signal. At those times I had to let him go in his diaper or rely more on timing. Relying on timing is often an easy way to do it too, and as long as you never force the child to use the potty I think it's just as good as relying on signals. We relied a LOT on timing and my kid still learned when he had to go. Just sayin'. I know you cleared that up more in a later post too.
post #115 of 260
one last comment and then i swear i am forever done with this thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
I don't think it's so much that people feel threatened or defensive, as just that they're seeing that some other people

have the wrong idea about EC, and it bothers them to see those wrong ideas perpetuated. Just as if people were saying they chose not to breastfeed because no one they know who tried it was ever able to produce enough milk, or because it usually hurts a lot, or because all the formula-fed babies they know are healthy and happy. Those statements probably wouldn't make most people who breastfeed feel threatened, but a lot of us might have a hard time reading a thread full of them without saying anything in defense of breastfeeding.
:
just like you might feel compelled to respond to someone who says cloth diapers seem messy and gross (poo and pee in the washing machine?!) and super time consuming, explaining that it hasn't been your experience at all, and offering some information to help them better understand the choice you made and what it looks like for real on a daily basis. that's all any of were trying to do. or at least that's my impression, of course i can only speak for myself.
post #116 of 260
First, I'm really sorry there are some people that are turned off by this thread. Or if there are people that feel offended. Personally I just really love sharing info about ec'ing with people and truly do that because I think it is amazing and fascinating on many fronts (biologically, culturally- it is just interesting to me- as it was a fascinating experience).
In general (in many debates) I feel like if one says: 'I do x because it is responsive' there are many people that are interpreting that to mean 'if you don't do x than you are not responsive'. Then we argue round and round with everyone getting very very frustrated.

Perhaps there are also pieces of information about ec'ing that some may not know or even disagree with? Do most people agree that infants are able to signal and hold pee to some degree? That at some point they lose that ability?
Most people that learn a little about ec do seem to be aware of that premise.. but this means that potty learning and ec'ing are different. (Kind of like breastfed babies need to nurse more often than ff babies need a bottle.... both timings are right in that situation but generalizing one feeding schedule for all babies is wrong)
Bokonon brought up something and I used her example because it was the post I was reading.... not to signal her out
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

My son is 4.5, very normal, and didn't potty learn until he was 4 because he simply did not care that he was sitting in a wet diaper. He would always tell me when he had pooped, but didn't like to be changed in general and would rather be in a sopping wet diaper than stop what he was doing and have it changed.
People can start ec'ing at any age, but if the child has lost the ability to hold their pee you have to 'get that back' first. At 4 your child was not aware that he needed to pee and it didn't upset him. Fact. Fine. But not relevant to ec. I cannot say for sure, but I would suspect that at 4 days old, he probably did signal. You are still being responsive to him and you probably waited till he showed the conventional signs of readiness before beginning potty learning-- which is respectful. However, I don't see how that example applies to ec'ing... but I see how it makes our experiences different. Again, if you don't agree that babies can signal as infants and hold... then we really have to stop there and figure out some common ground.
I don't use words like 'responsive' or 'respectful' when I talk about ec'ing to be judgmental but to be descriptive. They fit both potty learning and ec and honestly they are buzzwords for ap/nfl lifestyles. I do try to be careful because I've been around the 'boards' long enough to know how easily words make people bristle. But if I say someone is responsive because they do x, it does NOT imply that everyone that does NOT do x is not being responsive and when people jump to that conclusion then we have that to clear up too.

It really is hard, I've said biological norm before- to refer to ec- and apparently that is inflammatory, too. What suggestions do you have for me?? Do you disagree that it is the norm? Is there a better way to say it? For me it is hard to keep my old impressions about conventional potty training now that I have ec'ed 2 kids. I mean really, I have so many wonderful things to share about breastfeeding and leaving my son intact and cosleeping and on this forum I would expect that I shouldn't be required to sugar-coat my experience or slave over word choice just so I don't piss someone off (-; (oops, pun unintended, but I kept it).

I don't like to say that if you ec you then realize that the babies are trying to signal and hold their pee/poop till they eventually give up. There just is no 'easy' way to say that... and honestly any time we ec'ers state that people get mad, even if it is said as nicely as possible. It is either a fact or you disagree with it. If it is a fact, then you resolve what you are going to do about it. But the dialogue eventually reaches this point. Are we judgmental because we state this? Yes we are if we are being snarky or rude...
Some people have strong feelings about this. Some people don't think it is a big deal and others are horrified. Several times people have said that they think that cultures used to ec'ing would jump at the idea of disposables... but really, what if their first response to diapering was- horror and disgust? Aren't both likely to be true/valid responses?

We each resolve these facts and conflicts individually, as I mentioned, ec resonated for me, and I was quickly rewarded. I certainly do not expect my experience to be the one right way. Oh gosh no. and our culture is certainly not very condusive to ec'ing. And obvioulsy our message has not always been received as intended.... but that doesn't mean we should back down... but hopefully learn something and do better the next time.

I guess as an ec'er I see a lot of negativity about ec'ing on this thread. And things that I don't consider to 'have' to be a part of ecing keep being stated as absolutes. It doesn't mean that I think that is horrible to diaper or that everyone should ec. It doesn't mean that I should avoid correcting misconceptions either. This is the point of conflict that we run into over and over. It is either a truth and we have to resolve the conflict, or we disagree with a basic tenant and can argue that, too. I don't feel it is ultimately judgmental when both sides are trying to have dialogue. But it isn't respectful to ignore part of the issue just because it brings conflict either.

I hope some of that made sense, I now have to press submit and do errands.... back later, I really want to continue this dialogue, hopefully positively

Jessica
post #117 of 260
Thread Starter 
Jess, I think you are on to something there. Maybe we can still continue this interesting discussion in a respectful way if we start agreeing/disagreeing on certain premises.

So let's see...as I see it, the basic premises of EC (and you other ECers might have to help me refine or add to this list, heck, even you non-ECers may have to help):

1. Babies are aware (perhaps not consciously) of when they need to eliminate from birth.
2. They often prefer to eliminate in open air unless "taught" otherwise.
3. Babies often show in some way that they need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals (or regular timing, or an intuition) and take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

So, now we can decide which tenants we agree with and which we don't.
post #118 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1 View Post
First, I'm really sorry there are some people that are turned off by this thread. Or if there are people that feel offended. Personally I just really love sharing info about ec'ing with people and truly do that because I think it is amazing and fascinating on many fronts (biologically, culturally- it is just interesting to me- as it was a fascinating experience).
In general (in many debates) I feel like if one says: 'I do x because it is responsive' there are many people that are interpreting that to mean 'if you don't do x than you are not responsive'. Then we argue round and round with everyone getting very very frustrated.

Perhaps there are also pieces of information about ec'ing that some may not know or even disagree with? Do most people agree that infants are able to signal and hold pee to some degree? That at some point they lose that ability?
Most people that learn a little about ec do seem to be aware of that premise.. but this means that potty learning and ec'ing are different. (Kind of like breastfed babies need to nurse more often than ff babies need a bottle.... both timings are right in that situation but generalizing one feeding schedule for all babies is wrong)
Bokonon brought up something and I used her example because it was the post I was reading.... not to signal her out

People can start ec'ing at any age, but if the child has lost the ability to hold their pee you have to 'get that back' first. At 4 your child was not aware that he needed to pee and it didn't upset him. Fact. Fine. But not relevant to ec. I cannot say for sure, but I would suspect that at 4 days old, he probably did signal. You are still being responsive to him and you probably waited till he showed the conventional signs of readiness before beginning potty learning-- which is respectful. However, I don't see how that example applies to ec'ing... but I see how it makes our experiences different. Again, if you don't agree that babies can signal as infants and hold... then we really have to stop there and figure out some common ground.
I don't use words like 'responsive' or 'respectful' when I talk about ec'ing to be judgmental but to be descriptive. They fit both potty learning and ec and honestly they are buzzwords for ap/nfl lifestyles. I do try to be careful because I've been around the 'boards' long enough to know how easily words make people bristle. But if I say someone is responsive because they do x, it does NOT imply that everyone that does NOT do x is not being responsive and when people jump to that conclusion then we have that to clear up too.

It really is hard, I've said biological norm before- to refer to ec- and apparently that is inflammatory, too. What suggestions do you have for me?? Do you disagree that it is the norm? Is there a better way to say it? For me it is hard to keep my old impressions about conventional potty training now that I have ec'ed 2 kids. I mean really, I have so many wonderful things to share about breastfeeding and leaving my son intact and cosleeping and on this forum I would expect that I shouldn't be required to sugar-coat my experience or slave over word choice just so I don't piss someone off (-; (oops, pun unintended, but I kept it).

I don't like to say that if you ec you then realize that the babies are trying to signal and hold their pee/poop till they eventually give up. There just is no 'easy' way to say that... and honestly any time we ec'ers state that people get mad, even if it is said as nicely as possible. It is either a fact or you disagree with it. If it is a fact, then you resolve what you are going to do about it. But the dialogue eventually reaches this point. Are we judgmental because we state this? Yes we are if we are being snarky or rude...
Some people have strong feelings about this. Some people don't think it is a big deal and others are horrified. Several times people have said that they think that cultures used to ec'ing would jump at the idea of disposables... but really, what if their first response to diapering was- horror and disgust? Aren't both likely to be true/valid responses?

We each resolve these facts and conflicts individually, as I mentioned, ec resonated for me, and I was quickly rewarded. I certainly do not expect my experience to be the one right way. Oh gosh no. and our culture is certainly not very condusive to ec'ing. And obvioulsy our message has not always been received as intended.... but that doesn't mean we should back down... but hopefully learn something and do better the next time.

I guess as an ec'er I see a lot of negativity about ec'ing on this thread. And things that I don't consider to 'have' to be a part of ecing keep being stated as absolutes. It doesn't mean that I think that is horrible to diaper or that everyone should ec. It doesn't mean that I should avoid correcting misconceptions either. This is the point of conflict that we run into over and over. It is either a truth and we have to resolve the conflict, or we disagree with a basic tenant and can argue that, too. I don't feel it is ultimately judgmental when both sides are trying to have dialogue. But it isn't respectful to ignore part of the issue just because it brings conflict either.

I hope some of that made sense, I now have to press submit and do errands.... back later, I really want to continue this dialogue, hopefully positively

Jessica
I don't agree with the premise that ALL babies signal from birth. I tried to ec from the beginning with dd2 and she just never gave any signals. I read the books and read ec support boards about all the tiny signals babies would give, and it just never happened. I even kept a journal for a while trying to document if she had any changes in behaviour or made any sounds, and there was nothing. If I went diaper free, she peed/pooped all over my house, so I ended up using diapers and after about 4-5 months, I just gave up on EC completely since it didn't work for us.

I don't think my dd was an exception to the rule or anything either, I know several people who had the exact same experience that I did.
post #119 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post

The thing is, a lot of people say exactly the same kind of thing about breastfeeding. They know a lot of people who tried it, they tried it themselves, and based on their own real life experiences, they decided it just wasn't for them. When you hear those stories about breastfeeding, do you usually end up thinking, "Oh, okay, I guess it just wasn't the right choice for her?"
Of course I respect it if a mom chooses not to breastfeed. Anything else would be needless judgment on my part, and it wouldn't help the baby for me to think bad stuff about her mother.
post #120 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
I don't agree with the premise that ALL babies signal from birth. I tried to ec from the beginning with dd2 and she just never gave any signals. I read the books and read ec support boards about all the tiny signals babies would give, and it just never happened.
Hehehe, my LO's only signal was for me to turn my back for a few seconds, then, POW, puddle of pee. And, yes, it really was only for a few seconds.
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