If you don't EC... - Page 11

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by superfastreader

holding her over the potty worked until she got mobile around 11mo. then she wanted to do her own thing. she would literally scream when i offered the potty. i backed off but was never able to get her back on the potty. i tried everything in the potty strike threads on the EC board.

i really do hope that people realize that toddlerhood really throws a wrench into EC. a baby who was really into it may turn pottying into a control issue, which is what happened with my DD. i honestly believed that we would be in trainers between 12-18 months, but here we are still in diapers. i have not backed off of offering the potty, but respect her when she says "no."

sometimes the benefits of very beneficial AP practices get touted too strongly, making some moms feel like failures when their baby doesn't follow the textbook. like babies who are worn never cry, or EC'ed babies always prefer the potty, or cosleeping moms always get more sleep. i think when we focus on the outcome & insist that there's one right way to do something, we do a real disservice to the individuality of our children, and fail our fellow moms.

i also want to ask a question of the moms who EC their babies outside. do you live in urban or rural areas? how do you feel about strangers seeing your child's genitals? what about groundwater contamination from waste matter? the latter is a real problem in developing countries.

ITA with that. and when i talk about EC i try to talk more about the bonding and communication aspects which, for me, were far more important to me than the outcome of getting all poop and pee in a potty or having a one year old in underpants. for me, EC meant listening to what my child was communicating about his/her potty needs - which sometimes meant "damn it i don't want to sit on the potty right now!" and I respect *all* the communication my child makes about eliminating, even if it's not the communication I would have preferred to hear. but then of course you get the responses of "why would I do it if I'm not even going to get a kid out of diapers earlier?" well.... OK, it's been said over and over what other benefits are, but people do seem to be totally hung up on "when are they potty trained" just like many people will want to know why they should co-sleep if it's not going to help them get more sleep or why would they babywear if their kid is still going to cry. for the answer to all those questions is *respect* for my child. I try as a parent to treat my children as i would want to be treated. I want to be held when i'm sad, fed when i'm hungry, and if i were not able to get myself to a toilet i'd want someone to help me even if it wasn't as convenient as putting me in a diaper.

as for the pottying outside... I have lived in both a city and a rural area (city when my oldest two were tiny, rural with littlest one). I don't have a problem with pee outside. I mean people walk their dogs all over the city and they pee on the ground, squirrels and rats and cats and birds and every other animal pees and poos outside. that said, if i think there's a chance of a poo with a tiny baby, i hold them over their diaper and then wash the diaper. if i'm totally surprised by a poo, i take my water bottle and try and clean it up. with an older child who has a solid poo, if they did it outside i'd pick it up and throw it away just like i would if my dog pooped outside (i'm talking city here... i don't follow my dog around our 45 acres and pick up her poop ). now i live in a rural area but the answer is the same. i don't want poop all over my yard, animal or human, but i'm not fussed about the occasional pee considering that the deer and our dog and racoons and skunks and foxes and occasionally bears do their business in my yard too. I personally prefer that everyone in my family pee and poo in a toilet when it's available, so from the early days that's what i did for the most part, and i carry a little potty in the trunk of my car and lay a prefold in it so we don't have to go outside terribly often.

[Collinsky]

I tried it with my first -- I was very idealistic and motivated to be the best darn natural mama I could be then -- but she never discernably signaled, and timing didn't work for me. I spent months getting peed on, which didn't gross me out (just good clean baby pee ) but was certainly discouraging after a while. I had ONE catch the whole time, and just kept telling myself that we were "getting the hang of it" and would soon be having more catches, it was just a matter of sticking it out and somehow, some way, it would begin to click for us. And then she learned to crawl and it wasn't long after that that I began to feel like any progress we'd made towards that "click" were either completely undone, or fabricated in my imagination to begin with. I was a member of online EC groups, did tons of reading, and was all for it, but finally just kind of had to throw in the towel and stop focusing so much on something that wasn't working.

I wanted to when I had my second, since I felt I had failed so completely with my first, and read the books to fortify myself and be armed with motivation and information. She also didn't really seem to signal, and timing just doesn't work for me. If I had to know when to breastfeed by timing alone, I don't know how on earth that would work out, TBH! Fortunately, infant hunger cues are pretty clear; I really did watch my girls as much as I could to see "Wait, did she squinch up her left eye there? Is that a cue? Oh, guess not." It stands to reason that hunger cues would be much clearer (and become far more intense the longer they are not responded to, as I'm sure we've all seen with others' babies!) because that need is 100% dependent on someone else responding to it. For peeing or pooping, even if no one responds to that need, it will fulfill itself - so the biological need for mama to know is significantly less.

At any rate, I ended up shelving EC (I still support it as an option for parents to consider, and actually talked one set of expectant parents into it, just a few months ago) in the "not for me" category. On the one hand, I felt like a failure, because obviously I was doing it wrong or was constitutionally unable to have that communication with my sweet babies. But at the same time, I was getting stressed out, discouraged, and rather than being a connecting, communicating, bonding thing, it was just a stay-positive-while-getting-peed-on thing that was starting to make me feel like a bad mama, and I wanted to just ENJOY my baby. I realize that for many, EC contributes to that - but that wasn't my experience, and I'm okay with that. I also am open to the idea of ECing (each time I'm pg I think about it) and if it is more successful this time I'll be glad - I'm all about using less dipes! - but if it doesn't work for us I'm not going to beat myself up for depriving my children and myself of some otherwise unattainable benefits because I personally don't think that's the case. I used to, but not anymore. I respect it, and I confess I still feel twinges of envy around my ECing friends from time to time, but I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.

[katiesk]

I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.

well, of course not!

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

ahh, good point.

I was just mentioning that b/c many people, including child development experts and peds - simply don't believe babies are capable of that type of control (physically) until they are a bit older.

This was the biggest shock to me when I started ecing my dd. Here were all the experts, the peds, and the books (including Sears) telling me that babies couldn't control their sphincters before 18 months, and my FOUR MONTH OLD was clearly, clearly holding it. Really holding it. Looking back, she was holding it before I even started ec at 3 months old (she was one of those babies who would hold it and then poop up a STORM on the changing table...a TOTAL mess). I started to wonder what other things my pediatrician was telling me that were just wrong. A scary thought.

No judgment here on anyone who does or doesn't do ec. I think you can diaper and potty train "normally" with huge amounts of love and communication, and I think you can ec with huge amounts of stress and shame. And vice versa.

I do hope that this thread has helped people see that there are plenty of valid reasons to NOT ec, and that ec:

1. doesn't need to be a huge disgusting mess (for some of us it was MUCH cleaner than relying solely on diapers)

2. doesn't necessarily mean watching your baby like a hawk all the time (some of the people who said that they don't ec were really doing a modified part-time ec in my book--introducing your baby gently to the potty at 1 year old is pretty counter-culture to today's diapering practices in the US, you know?)

3. isn't limited to stay at home parents (offer once a morning--hey! you're ecing!)

Interesting discussion...

[razberry]

hello there well my daughters almost 6 months and my only concerne about it is that , ive hearde from other moms that there baby was pron at night to hold it in and be totally unconfortable because the mom in question just wanted to sleep the little time she has so whats the solution because i dont want to teach my kid tha its ok to hold it in , it can bring health problemes in the futur...

[katiesk]

except that you do want want to teach young kids not to pee in bed...unless they will wear pull ups or whatever...

i don't encourage my dd to "hold it" at night (or ever really - except for a moment or two, long enough to get to a toilet) but she usually pees at bedtime and then again when she wakes up in the am. if she occasionally does have to pee in the night, she does not hold it, she wakes up to pee and the goes right back to sleep.

[Plummeting]

We did EC, but DD was also one of those babies who never seemed to mind being wet at all. They definitely do exist. When she was a tiny baby she would get really active before she went - just wiggling a lot and maybe even fussing a little. However, by the time she was maybe 5 or 6 months old, she wasn't giving any kind of indication that she needed to go. We just took her when we thought she had to go, kept her in diapers or little trainers the rest of the time and definitely did not exist in a house where there was pee and poop all over the floor.

Actually, DD used to poop on me regularly when she was pooping in diapers and I had to change her. Her poop was explosive and sometimes I'd think she was done before she was, then I'd get the diaper off and more poop would come flying out of her butt and generally land right on the front of my shirt. Once she was pooping in the potty all the time (6 months) I never got pooped on again, nor did I ever get poop on my floors, walls, clothing, furniture, etc. That literally only happened when she was pooping in diapers. There were a few times where she peed and it went right through the trainers onto the floor, but mostly the trainers or diapers caught the pee and that was that. I really don't see how that's any different from someone helping their 3-year-old potty train by letting them run around naked and having them pee all over the floor, other than at least with a baby in trainers, the majority of it is absorbed by the trainers. My SIL potty trained her kids that way and they had lots of accidents on the floors.

Honestly, I don't think much about whether people EC or not. I don't get why people get so upset about it or why, no matter what you tell people, they still insist that it must be some awful thing where you stare at your baby every second of every day, just waiting for a cue, and still end up with pee and poop all over everything. People are telling some of you that's not the way it is for them. Who is a stranger on the internet to insist that it must be? lol That's just as offensive as me telling a diaper user that their child HAS to be giving signals they're missing or MUST feel disrespected by being left to soil themselves. (I don't actually believe either of those things.)

I think EC is cool and it works for some people, but I also think cloth diapers are adorable and I've just invested at least a couple hundred dollars on a newborn stash that's guaranteed not to fit for more than a month. (Hey, I can sell them when I'm done, right? ) EC doesn't work for soe people. It can make them feel like they are spending too much time worrying about elimination. I get it. It hasn't been my experience, but I get it. What I don't get is why some insist that people who do it must be employing some noble savage theory or must be doing xyz. I don't really care who in the world did or didn't EC at what point in human development. It works for a lot of people, so I do it. So what?

[LilMamiBella]

This has been interesting. I wasn't for ec. I'm busy with 4 kids and we homeschool. I have spent tons of $$ on cloth diapers. But reading this thread has me curious and so I was surprised to see that my library had the diaper free book.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by LilMamiBella

This has been interesting. I wasn't for ec. I'm busy with 4 kids and we homeschool. I have spent tons of $$ on cloth diapers. But reading this thread has me curious and so I was surprised to see that my library had the diaper free book.

For people skeptical about EC, I'd recommend "Diaper Free BABY" by Christine Gross Loh, and definitely NOT NOT NOT "Diaper Free" by Ingrid Bauer. Gross Loh's book (from what I've heard) does a great job of encouraging part time ec and is very laid back. Ingrid Bauer's book (I've read it) seems likely to press your buttons like you won't believe (based on all of the comments on here already about why people don't ec or are annoyed by the people who do ec). In my opinion, Bauer's book is very "this is the right and natural way" in tone, and puts it forth in an all or nothing approach. I think it would turn people off. But I've heard that Gross Loh's book is really good. Enjoy!

[Plummeting]

I never read any of the EC books. My college roommate had told me about women in some parts of Africa doing it and I just filed that away as interesting, but not something possible in America. Then when I was pg with DD, I heard about EC and realized it was the same thing. I figured I'd try it and go with the flow. DD wore diapers full time for the first probably 7 months, then after that she always wore them when we weren't home and for bed and sometimes wore them around the house, coverless. She had some naked time, but I don't think it was much more than any diapered baby normally has, because like most people, I didn't want to be cleaning pee up off the floors all the time. For another thing, I was afraid my dogs might get the wrong idea and think, Hey, if she's peeing in the house.... I wasn't interested in finding out how that scenario would play out. lol

There were accidents and there was a "potty pause" at around 9ish months, where we were missing all the time and there was more than just a little pee getting past those trainers, so we switched her back to diapers without covers full time until she was using the potty consistently again, which was maybe 2 months later. There were times where it was frustrating, but I do not at all believe it was any more frustrating for us than potty training the old-fashioned way would've been. Sure there are stories of 2.5-year-olds getting up one day and deciding to use the potty full time all on their own, but the majority of people I know who don't EC and do potty train their kids the "regular" way have found many aspects of it very frustrating.

If people are honest, diapering a toddler and especially potty training a toddler or young child are generally not enjoyable experiences, no matter how cute your cloth diapers are. Holding down a 2.5 year old whose rear end is covered in poop, as she tries to escape because she hates having her diaper changed is not fun or cute, and I've seen at least a hundred posts at MDC with moms asking how they can make this exact scenario less disgusting, less messy and less upsetting for all involved, so I'm pretty sure they're finding it stressful. Therefore, pretending that diapering prevents some sort of universal stress experienced only by those who EC is either dishonest or misinformed. BOTH scenarios have their own stressful moments. It's up to each individual family to decide which will be less stressful for them, but it's simply not true that EC universally increases stress levels and workloads for parents.

[Collinsky]

Another reason I thought of is that I pretty much live in chaos all the time... adding EC in when I can't even manage to keep my house to any standard of cleanliness and can't make it anywhere on time is beyond me. I would LOVE to have it together enough that being proactive about my baby's elimination was a possibility. That certainly contributes to the feeling of failure, since I'm pretty sure that if I had anything in my life under control, EC would be a simple, easy thing to do.

Originally Posted by Collinsky

I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.

Originally Posted by katiesk

well, of course not!

I hope it didn't sound snarky the way I said that - rereading it it seems it could seem that way! I just meant that for me, if I had kept doing it, I would have been forcing myself to do it just on principle, just to not be a failure at it, and not because of any experienced rewards or joy gained from it. Recognizing that and allowing myself to choose to put it aside was a big decision - and a relief - for me.

Originally Posted by Carlyle

For people skeptical about EC, I'd recommend "Diaper Free BABY" by Christine Gross Loh, and definitely NOT NOT NOT "Diaper Free" by Ingrid Bauer. Gross Loh's book (from what I've heard) does a great job of encouraging part time ec and is very laid back. Ingrid Bauer's book (I've read it) seems likely to press your buttons like you won't believe (based on all of the comments on here already about why people don't ec or are annoyed by the people who do ec). In my opinion, Bauer's book is very "this is the right and natural way" in tone, and puts it forth in an all or nothing approach. I think it would turn people off. But I've heard that Gross Loh's book is really good. Enjoy!

That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. Especially in the earlier days of my parenting, that would have been a pressure I easily took on! I read it before my second was born, after I had already "failed" at EC with my first, hoping that it would help me be more successful with EC try #2 -- but I ended up getting very discouraged very quickly and deciding it just wasn't going to work for us.

[Lia & Eva's Mama]

my views are not important.....

[yamilee21]

Originally Posted by Collinsky

... That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. ...

I read Bauer's book after I had already been practicing EC with my son for 10-11 months. I disliked it so much that I almost wanted to quit EC, just to not be associated with that self-righteous, superiority-complex mentality that I found in the book. The Gross-Loh book really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Unfortunately, the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Lia & Eva's Mama

EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......Its very humbling. When my girls lets say had an accident, i would apologize for not getting her to a toilet.
Hearing whew you stinky bum lets go change your stinky bum...really gets me, why be cutesy when its fecal matter smeared all over your babes genitals yuck...respect..respect to NOT let your child sit in waste.

I can see why not to EC, Definetly not for everyone, it is a LOT of work and dedication. It isn't like your watching all day, your kinda just aware (ON).

My first child did not cue at all till she learned our potty sign (tap chest) But it wasn't consistent. She still PL real early I think..don't quote me was 18 months and exactly 2 years old night dry.

My second was born 13 months after her sister, I was ECing both of them. EC was A LOT easier the second time around!!!! It was soo easy it was almost a joke LOL SHE was a very clear signaler from a very very early age..Would not poop her pants Would hold it for as long as her little body could. She was fully day dry at ...get this...13 months...The minute the little one learned to walk, she learned to potty.


I think once you know what most babies are capable of, its hard to just slap on a poop bag...sorry diaper.. and not think about it.

But Why let a baby tune out a natural instinct they were born with?

Oh and BTW I think daycares should EC, Children learn soo much better when they see others using the toilet.

Just adding my two bits.

I can't even begin to say how offensive this is. Are you saying that I didn't give my children the greatest respect because EC didn't work for us?! And the reason I had to use "poop bags" was because it was either that or get pooped on. DD2 wasn't born with a natural instict to only want to poop in the potty.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by Lia & Eva's Mama

EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. For instance, I could go around saying that I think choosing unassisted homebirth is the greatest respect we can give our babies, to allow them to be born in the most natural, gentle, unhindered, respectful way possible... but in a "why didn't you homebirth?" thread, it would be a pretty disrespectful platform to come from IMO. My mothering has been GREATLY informed by my birth choices, and I wish more people "got it" as a viable, valuable option. I get that those who are pro-EC have similar feelings of frustration and the occasional (or frequent) urge to evangelize something that has been such a significant and meaningful part of their parenting, and that is also misunderstood, misrepresented, and maligned by larger society. I get that.

But you know what kids are capable of, IMO? Being fully healthy, happy, respected, connected, and loved no matter how their poop is dealt with, as long as it's done in a positive, gentle, loving, and hygienic way.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Lia & Eva's Mama

EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......Its very humbling. When my girls lets say had an accident, i would apologize for not getting her to a toilet.
Hearing whew you stinky bum lets go change your stinky bum...really gets me, why be cutesy when its fecal matter smeared all over your babes genitals yuck...respect..respect to NOT let your child sit in waste.

I can see why not to EC, Definetly not for everyone, it is a LOT of work and dedication. It isn't like your watching all day, your kinda just aware (ON).

My first child did not cue at all till she learned our potty sign (tap chest) But it wasn't consistent. She still PL real early I think..don't quote me was 18 months and exactly 2 years old night dry.

My second was born 13 months after her sister, I was ECing both of them. EC was A LOT easier the second time around!!!! It was soo easy it was almost a joke LOL SHE was a very clear signaler from a very very early age..Would not poop her pants Would hold it for as long as her little body could. She was fully day dry at ...get this...13 months...The minute the little one learned to walk, she learned to potty.


I think once you know what most babies are capable of, its hard to just slap on a poop bag...sorry diaper.. and not think about it.

But Why let a baby tune out a natural instinct they were born with?

Oh and BTW I think daycares should EC, Children learn soo much better when they see others using the toilet.

Just adding my two bits.

Aye aye aye. I mean, wow.

First of all, this doesn't answer the original question. The original question was why DIDN'T you EC. This might be a good answer to why DID you.

On a thread where people are discussing the reasons why we did NOT EC, this just comes across as really offensive. And sort of out of left field. I mean this thread is how many pages long? And every time we all make nice and agree different strokes for different folks, someone comes in and says "my way or the highway."

[sapphire_chan]

Since there may be new/soon-to-be mamas reading this thread to help decide if they'll try EC, I'm going to share

http://www.tribalbaby.org/

Most awesomest EC blog ever. She has terrific hints for getting started at various ages, how to do just a little, things to try to do more.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by Collinsky

That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. Especially in the earlier days of my parenting, that would have been a pressure I easily took on! I read it before my second was born, after I had already "failed" at EC with my first, hoping that it would help me be more successful with EC try #2 -- but I ended up getting very discouraged very quickly and deciding it just wasn't going to work for us.

I wouldn't call it a "negative book," but I think that yamilee said it well that it came across to me as "self-righteous." Like "this is the only/best way to do things," which is an attitude many people here have listed as a reason that they've been turned off by ec-ers.

I'm sorry that you felt like you "failed," and I do think that this book can make people feel that they're not "doing it right" if they have a harder time picking up on intuition or cues, and if they aren't as comfortable with a diaperless baby. Which is hogwash--there are as many ways to "ec" as there are babies.

This is why I recommend the Gross-Loh book based on what I've heard of it. It sounds like it really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. (like yamilee said). I also agree that the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.

Personally, I think that kind of "all or nothing" approach does a huge disservice to all parents. We're caught between two extremes--pediatricians tell us to wait until children can literally tell us (in words) that they need to pee, which doesn't happen for many kids until they are over 2 years old, and the extreme diaper free advocates who make it sound like the only other alternative is to go diaper free from birth (not that all--or even most!--diaper free advocates do this, but it is the most sensational image and so gets the most press).

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.

There's no pressure to focus on it any more than your child is asking for it, but just put it in your parenting toolbox as something to consider if your baby is fussy (hhmmmm, fussy baby: hungry? tired? gas? dirty diaper? need to pee?). Even a pee in the potty every couple of days still helps babies keep their awareness, and knowing that babies *might* be fussy because they need to pee is a GREAT parenting tool! (Not all babies do it real obviously, but some DO, and for those of us with really fussy babies--one more tool in the parenting toolbox is AWESOME!)

Anyway, I'm rambling, I'll stop. But this is my particular "hot button" issue--the whole judging each others toileting choices. All choices are valid, and there are many shades of grey between ec and not. One of my best friends started giving her ds chances to use the potty starting at 18 months because of watching me ec dd (they're around the same age), and it was great for her. When her dd was born, she asked to borrow my Bauer "Diaper Free" book and I almost didn't want to give it to her. She'd been so successful with her son partly because she didn't think she was "doing ec" and I was afraid to see her take it more seriously with her dd and burn out.

[Carlyle]

Sorry for the novella...

Originally Posted by lach

And every time we all make nice and agree different strokes for different folks, someone comes in and says "my way or the highway."

(I hope that those reading about ec for the first time can ignore the people who aren't careful with their language. It makes me sad that they end up being the ambassadors for ec, and I'm sorry. AND I hope I don't come across that way!)

[jessjgh1]

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.

Interesting concept....
Do you think it is practical? I have a sense with my experience that a lot of times the process was guided by my children. Sometimes then demanded me to ec them even when it wasn't how I intended. It would have been difficult to just not do it some times. For example, I did not want to or plan on ec'ing at night but both my children 'insisted' on ec'ing at night at one or more points.

Jessica