If you don't EC... - Page 12

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by Carlyle

(I hope that those reading about ec for the first time can ignore the people who aren't careful with their language. It makes me sad that they end up being the ambassadors for ec, and I'm sorry. AND I hope I don't come across that way!)

I agree..... I also tend to assume that it is just that.... a poor choice of language or not thinking something through to a degree (or knowing all sides/points of view and not meaning to discount one). I know I've inadvertently stuck my foot in my mouth before

I have mostly been called on it gently, though. Which I try to remember.

Jessica

[laurelg]

I do EC part time, but figured I'd chime in with why we're only part-time.

Primarily, it's because I don't pay close enough attention, and DD doesn't signal that clearly. I'm a SAHM but was a full-time online student this semester, so I spend a lot of time with DD where I am present but somewhat distracted. And, she's engaging in a lot of independent play these days, so she's really not of the mindset to let me know when it's potty time.

We definitely EC at all the "easy" times, like wake-up. DD is great at that one - she's stayed dry all night pretty much since 6 weeks old. I also try to EC when I can be really focused on her, though a lot of times it's more a matter of hmm, she hasn't pottied in a while, let's try it... than actually picking up a cue. DD is good about taking opportunities when offered.

I agree with a PP who said she'd like people just to be aware of babies' elimination awareness, and to choose what to do with that information. I helped a friend ease her older son into potty learning by explaining EC principles, and suggesting she start with the potty when he woke up. Had she known about it, she probably never would have been a full-timer, but it's something they could have done all along.

Since we've started solids, DD's poop cues have gotten WAY more obvious, which is nice, because I am not a fan of solid-poopy cloth diapers. So, I definitely try to EC for poop as much as possible, now!

[LandonsMom]

Originally Posted by savithny

...and it isn't a magic answer to the question of "how long will I have to be cleaning baby poop up? Either way, you're going to be wiping butts and cleaning up poop -- either from your sink, or from the floor, or from a diaper.

LOL, so true!!

I've never had the interest and I've known about it since 2005 when my first was about 6 months. I dont know a lot about it but do have some friends that do/have done different variations of it.

I dont really understand the arguement that it helps babies PL earlier. Once friend did have her babe in undies at 11 months, which was amazing. But mostly it seems to be around 2, and both mine PL'd not long after two with no ECing.

I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

Plus DH already begrudges cloth diapering; were "wierd enough" (his words, not mine) already LOL!

[LandonsMom]

Originally Posted by savithny

Here it is again. No, I am not uninterested in EC because I "fear failure."

Do you not see that statements like that are exactly what people are talking about when they say that EC advocates are calling themselves better parents and even better *people*? You basically just called people who don't want to EC scaredycats -- one of the oldest playground fighting words around. That "75 reasons" list you linked to is also full of similar arguments -- the "better bond" and the "If you're REALLY AP you'd WANT to EC" arguments, specifically.

As the one who made the mammals nurse vs. eliminate argument, I did not say all mammals nurse *the same way.* Some mammals nurse constantly. Others nurse once or twice a day. There are countless little variations in how different mammals nurse their young. But nursing, the ACT of nursing, is *required* for life. Pooping in a bowl while you nurse, or being balanced on a potty at the age of 6 weeks is NOT required for life.

I'm sure you know people who found EC to be helpful in their breastfeeding and parenting journeys. I know people who found it made everything more stressful and difficult, exacerbated existing problems in their lives, households, and marriages, and eventually decided its benefits were not worth the stressors. Not every baby makes the same clear, obvious cue. Not every person lives in a house where one of those "misses" is no big deal. Not everyone can arrange their lives to drop everything whenever their baby makes a potty cue.

It is a very individual decision. You've seen a lot of well-presented reasons why a range of people decided it would not work in the totality of their lives. Some people decide it is important enough to make work, other people decide there are other things that take priority within the greater context of their entire family and entire life.

Very well spoken!

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by LandonsMom

I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

I really don't think it would take up a chunk of your time like you are thinking. It was almost always seamless in my experience- not something I analyzed all the time. Kind of like breastfeeding.... it just IS.
It might be more time consuming at times (like if you started with a newborn, at times when the child is 'pushing' it) but then at some point it starts to be quite equal to diapering, and then much less time.

Jessica

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by LandonsMom

LOL, so true!!

I've never had the interest and I've known about it since 2005 when my first was about 6 months. I dont know a lot about it but do have some friends that do/have done different variations of it.

I dont really understand the arguement that it helps babies PL earlier. Once friend did have her babe in undies at 11 months, which was amazing. But mostly it seems to be around 2, and both mine PL'd not long after two with no ECing.

I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

Plus DH already begrudges cloth diapering; were "wierd enough" (his words, not mine) already LOL!

1) while a child might not be *completely* out of a diaper/trainer any earlier, the vast vast majority of EC'd babies poop exclusively in the potty from very early on. and while 100% of the pee may not end up in the potty, it's been my experience that by 6-ish months of age most of the pee goes in the potty, so you're talking maybe 2-4 pee diapers a day tops. so while they might not be in undies full-time, it is a very different experience than changing your infant or toddler every time they pee or poo 24-7 until they are PL'd at age 2 or 3 (or whenever).

2) as the pp mentioned, it's really not as labor intensive as you imagine it to be. or at least it wasn't for me - i know everyone's experience is going to be different. but i know it wasn't nearly as labor intensive as *I* imagined it to be when i started out with it. i thought it'd be worth it, but i thought it'd be hard. so much so that i didn't have the confidence to even try FT, from-birth EC with my 2nd child even though PT from 9 months wiht #1 worked so well. so i started very PT from about 2 months, then a little more actively PT from 6 months on. I decided to give FT EC a whirl with my 3rd child starting at 2 weeks of age (once we had breastfeeding established and i was fully back into my routine after the birth). and for me it was totally liberating, not hard work at all. i knew, for example, that if i pottied her right before i started washing the dishes, she was not then going to start fussing from a wet diaper 5 minutes into the chore. i knew that once i pottied and nursed her that she'd be happy in the sling for XX amount of time so i could play a game with my older two without interruption. i knew if i pottied her before we left the house i wouldn't hear a gigantic poop explosion from the back seat 10 minutes into a 45 minute drive to town. and pulling her trainers down, pee/poo/wipe with toilet paper, and pulling them back up took waaaay less time than laying her down, holding her still, distracting her with a toy while i unfastened a diaper, cleaned up, put dirty dipe in bin, got new dipe, refastened, redressed. especially when we were out and about! so i actually found that for me, it made life easier and gave me*more* time to spend with my older two and to deal with the house work and such. also, while my DH hates diaper changes like the dickens and would usually try to get me to stop doing whatever it was to change the baby, he didn't mind pottying her at all because it was so quick and easy. granted, he thought i was nuts at first, but once he realized what a cinch it was, he was all about it. so it also banked me more baby help, and helped DH realize that not all baby fusses required "magic boobs" to fix - sometimes it was something he could easily take care of himself. and i think that really helped him relax into his role as daddy with #3 more quickly and easily than he had with the first two, for whom everything was viewed as a need for boobs he didn't possess.

I just want to add that I hope the information I'm sharing is viewed as intended. i'm not to talk anyone into doing something they don't want to do. but i know that *I* had a lot of misconceptions about what EC entailed, and I see a lot of people who haven't tried it assuming it will be a lot of work. for some people it obviously is, but that has not been my experience with it at all, and so i feel compelled to share that for anyone reading the thread that might be considering it.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

I just want to add that I hope the information I'm sharing is viewed as intended. i'm not to talk anyone into doing something they don't want to do. but i know that *I* had a lot of misconceptions about what EC entailed, and I see a lot of people who haven't tried it assuming it will be a lot of work. for some people it obviously is, but that has not been my experience with it at all, and so i feel compelled to share that for anyone reading the thread that might be considering it.

FWIW, I think you conveyed very well. Your post, and several other pro-EC posts in this thread, have been respectful and compassionate, while still providing accurate information and sharing your personal experience. It's made for a great thread, IMO!!

[choli]

It's been a long time since my kids were diaper age. However, I didn't ec because I have/had a lot more going on in my life between job, kids, friends and house that took precedence over my kids' toileting. Our family tends to evaluate based on the cost/benefit to the whole family.The perceived benefits were far outweighed by the drawbacks.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Carlyle

I wouldn't call it a "negative book," but I think that yamilee said it well that it came across to me as "self-righteous." Like "this is the only/best way to do things," which is an attitude many people here have listed as a reason that they've been turned off by ec-ers.

I'm sorry that you felt like you "failed," and I do think that this book can make people feel that they're not "doing it right" if they have a harder time picking up on intuition or cues, and if they aren't as comfortable with a diaperless baby. Which is hogwash--there are as many ways to "ec" as there are babies.

This is why I recommend the Gross-Loh book based on what I've heard of it. It sounds like it really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. (like yamilee said). I also agree that the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.

Personally, I think that kind of "all or nothing" approach does a huge disservice to all parents. We're caught between two extremes--pediatricians tell us to wait until children can literally tell us (in words) that they need to pee, which doesn't happen for many kids until they are over 2 years old, and the extreme diaper free advocates who make it sound like the only other alternative is to go diaper free from birth (not that all--or even most!--diaper free advocates do this, but it is the most sensational image and so gets the most press).

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.

There's no pressure to focus on it any more than your child is asking for it, but just put it in your parenting toolbox as something to consider if your baby is fussy (hhmmmm, fussy baby: hungry? tired? gas? dirty diaper? need to pee?). Even a pee in the potty every couple of days still helps babies keep their awareness, and knowing that babies *might* be fussy because they need to pee is a GREAT parenting tool! (Not all babies do it real obviously, but some DO, and for those of us with really fussy babies--one more tool in the parenting toolbox is AWESOME!)

Anyway, I'm rambling, I'll stop. But this is my particular "hot button" issue--the whole judging each others toileting choices. All choices are valid, and there are many shades of grey between ec and not. One of my best friends started giving her ds chances to use the potty starting at 18 months because of watching me ec dd (they're around the same age), and it was great for her. When her dd was born, she asked to borrow my Bauer "Diaper Free" book and I almost didn't want to give it to her. She'd been so successful with her son partly because she didn't think she was "doing ec" and I was afraid to see her take it more seriously with her dd and burn out.

What do you mean by "aware of their elimination"? Yes, I do believe that all babies are aware that something is going on when they have to pee/poop. But it isn't an awareness in the sense that they have a preference to using a potty instead of a diaper. I don't believe that all babies have a natural desire to eliminate in the potty instead of a diaper. Some, but not all. Some babies, like my dd2, don't get upset at a wet diaper, don't give signals, don't have a consistent schedule, and have no qualms at all about eliminating on people, floors, couches. It would have been impossible to EC her unless I spent the majority of the day holding her over the potty. And since she really didn't like the naked, sitting on a potty sensation, that wouldn't have worked either.

Now that she is a year old, I am trying it with her again. But she still doesn't really give any signals for peeing, hates being naked on the toilet, and still doesn't have a consistent schedule for elimination, so I have had a few (and these were just pure luck) catches, and the rest of the time she just uses a diaper.

Like you said, all choices are valid, and I agree. EC isn't a better choice then using diapers, they are both equally valid choices.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by felix23

What do you mean by "aware of their elimination"? Yes, I do believe that all babies are aware that something is going on when they have to pee/poop.

That's exactly what I mean. Babies are aware of the feeling. They know that "something" is going on, and if you (somewhat consistently) draw their attention to it they'll eventually learn to associate it with being wet and/or poopy. Whether they decide to *care* about being wet or poopy varies widely depending on the child...as do most things!

[Logan]

EC doesnt have to be about getting it on the toilet either. Although thats great. But if your baby doesnt want to be held over the toilet and doesnt seem to signal, then in my opinion cueing them when they do go and changing them ASAP is still EC. There's not one way to EC, there's a million variations. If you're doing it in way that respects what your baby is saying then I dont see how you can 'fail' anything. I know Ive said it heaps, but (to me) it really has nothing to do with 'catches' or 'misses'

[KristyDi]

Short answer to the op, In my estimation the reported benefits of EC don't outweigh the necessary work.

Slightly longer answer; I already spent a ton of time researching birth choices, breastfeeding, baby led solids, babywearing, vaxing, etc. The benefits of ec-ing don't seem like all that big of a deal to me and the "consequences" of diapering seem mostly theoretical so adding another thing to the pile of new stuff to learn just didn't interest me.

I'm sure I could ec if I wanted to, I just haven't seen anything compelling enough to make me believe I should.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by Logan

EC doesnt have to be about getting it on the toilet either. Although thats great. But if your baby doesnt want to be held over the toilet and doesnt seem to signal, then in my opinion cueing them when they do go and changing them ASAP is still EC. There's not one way to EC, there's a million variations. If you're doing it in way that respects what your baby is saying then I dont see how you can 'fail' anything. I know Ive said it heaps, but (to me) it really has nothing to do with 'catches' or 'misses'

So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least! He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts

The constant "EC instead" as an answer for every cd issue on my old board was what turned me completely off. I mean, the people I know who EC, still use sposies. Not as many of them as a diapered baby, sure, but they use them. So, if you EC and cloth diaper, you're still going to have the same issues re: wicking, fabric-softener-dipe-havoc, stripping, etc. I don't see how "EC instead" is an answer to "my diapers are leaking, heavy wetter or need stripping?"

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about.

I dunno, I'm sure it's not the same for all kids. But I swear, the first time I gave my dd the chance to pee in the potty (at 3 months old), she just grinned and craned around to look up at me like "FINALLY!" I think for my dd, she felt the sensation of needing to pee and wasn't sure what to do about it, so she cried (not all kids do this, I know). So when I helped her do it in a way that felt good to her, she appreciated it and felt "listened to" from a very young age. I dunno. Like I said, I know it's different for all babies, and I'm totally putting my "spin" on her reactions. That's just why it felt more bonding for us.

That said, there were also times where I offered the potty too frequently and pissed her off...definitely less cool on the bonding angle. I think the more laid back you can be about it and REALLY follow your kid's lead, the better off you all are. Meaning, if your kid "signals" that they need to go really well, then great...help 'em out. If your kid fusses on the potty, then great, let 'em use the diaper.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

No ignoring them when you know they need to go is definitely not EC. I was referring to the poster who was trying to EC but her daughter didnt give any discernible signals. However changing them as soon as they go is definitely better than not.

The reason most ECers will recommend EC, for example in the case of leaking night nappies, is because we simply cant fathom leaving them in a wet nappy *on purpose* all night and actually trying to boost it so it will hold even more wees. Actually wanting them to sit in a wet nappy is unquestionable to most ECers. There are better options than that and thats probably why people tried to recommend other options to those things.

And my kids will often smile up at me as I hold them over the toilet too. The first time my son went he smiled like the previous poster described as in 'Finally!' It was relief and contentment. But they both used to scream when they wet their nappy thats for sure!

[InMediasRes]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

There were accidents and there was a "potty pause" at around 9ish months, where we were missing all the time and there was more than just a little pee getting past those trainers, so we switched her back to diapers without covers full time until she was using the potty consistently again, which was maybe 2 months later. There were times where it was frustrating, but I do not at all believe it was any more frustrating for us than potty training the old-fashioned way would've been.

This. DD doesn't like to be wet, but she also is refusing the potty big time. It's not the destination that counts to us, it's the journey. She already knows about the potty and is used to it. If she wants a break, fine, but I think we laid the groundwork already for good potty habits in toddlerhood. It can be frustrating, but mostly I find it fun. And my house isn't covered in poop either.

Sure there are stories of 2.5-year-olds getting up one day and deciding to use the potty full time all on their own, but the majority of people I know who don't EC and do potty train their kids the "regular" way have found many aspects of it very frustrating.

If people are honest, diapering a toddler and especially potty training a toddler or young child are generally not enjoyable experiences, no matter how cute your cloth diapers are. Holding down a 2.5 year old whose rear end is covered in poop, as she tries to escape because she hates having her diaper changed is not fun or cute, and I've seen at least a hundred posts at MDC with moms asking how they can make this exact scenario less disgusting, less messy and less upsetting for all involved, so I'm pretty sure they're finding it stressful. Therefore, pretending that diapering prevents some sort of universal stress experienced only by those who EC is either dishonest or misinformed. BOTH scenarios have their own stressful moments. It's up to each individual family to decide which will be less stressful for them, but it's simply not true that EC universally increases stress levels and workloads for parents.

This is the whole reason I did EC with DD. We didn't with DS (he was too old when I found out about it), and I found PLing to be a completely stressful nightmare situation with him. He still poops in a diaper and I don't see any end to that in the near future. Wrestling a 40lb 2.5yo to the ground to change him while he screams bloody murder is WAAAAYYYY more stressful than holding my DD for a few minutes so she can poop on the potty. I'm hoping to skip that whole fiasco completely. And the minor frustration of EC is totally outweighed by how enjoyable it is for me. I realize that this is not everyone's experience.

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least! He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts

The constant "EC instead" as an answer for every cd issue on my old board was what turned me completely off. I mean, the people I know who EC, still use sposies. Not as many of them as a diapered baby, sure, but they use them. So, if you EC and cloth diaper, you're still going to have the same issues re: wicking, fabric-softener-dipe-havoc, stripping, etc. I don't see how "EC instead" is an answer to "my diapers are leaking, heavy wetter or need stripping?"

a 2 year old and an infant are really worlds apart. i would expect anyone to respond to a 2 year olds verbal exclamation that they are about to poo or pee by offering the toilet. yes, that's communicating about elimination, but IMO it's not EC at that point (though i do think that PL'ing can be done using some EC tools and I always encourage my friends who are doing PL'ing to do so if they ask). the point of EC, IMO, is that you don't wait until they are developmentally capable of verbally exclaiming "poop!" or "pee!" before you respond to their communication about needing to eliminate.

also, i don't see how anyone can argue that responding to a need when a child *does* communicate it - regardless of the need - would not enhance a child's trust in their parents vs. the alternative of not responding to the communicated need. it's not a matter of "your child won't trust you anymore" obviously, but I don't see why it's so hard to get that it would enhance the bond and the feelings of trust when their communicated need is heard and responded to. there are *lots* of parenting choices that can enhance that feeling of bonding and trust, but it doesn't mean that if you don't do them your child won't trust you or there will not be any bond. it's not any more black and white with EC than with anything else, but it can and does enhance that bond - for both the mother and the child. for example, my mom and i are best friends. i love and respect her and have always felt well-bonded and trust her implicitly. she's a great mom. she only nursed me for 6 months, i crib slept from birth with some CIO, etc. etc. but it's the big-picture and the overall intent of the parent that determines the basic feeling of trust and bond - all the rest of it is just gravy, just icing on the cake that can enhance what already exists.

as for the way that EC can answer diaper questions... EC'ers just don't tend to have those issues with diapers. most don't even use diaper covers at all except for outings, and when you change immediately after every "miss" you're not going to be dealing with a lot of leaks/wicking. those issues usually come from heavily soaked diapers. IME, my oldest who i thought was a "heavy wetter" was actually a frequent pee-er, so when i changed her after an hour in the morning and the diaper was soaked, i came to find out once starting EC that she had actually peed 3 or 4 times in that period of time, not once like i had assumed. so what i needed wasn't a thicker more absorbent diaper, what i needed was to be more aware of how often she actually went so i could change her more frequently. same with night time - i had switched to sposies at night because i thought she was "flooding" her diaper with one heavy pee and the cloth couldn't hold it all fast enough. what was really happening was it was already wet and by the 3rd time she peed at night even the big huge cloth concoction i had stuffed her into wasn't enough to hold it all in. EC'ers tend to prefer less-absorbent diapers that don't have 'feel dry' layers or lots of thickness and absorbency because they mask the feeling of wetness for the child and thick diapers often keep the parent from noticing when the baby has peed just once. thin diapers with less absorbency don't usually need to be stripped, they tend to clean up quickly and easily and dry fast. for me, EC *was* an answer to pretty much every cloth diaper problem I ever had. once i switched to thin diapers with little absorbency, stopped using covers at home and tuned into my child's elimination patterns, all my diaper issues went away.

on a side note i think it's odd that all the EC'ers you know use sposies. I've never met a single one (unless their child was in daycare and it was required, and even then they used cloth at home). sposies hide the feeling of wetness, and EC'ers want their kids to maintain their awareness of peeing=feeling wet. plus i've never been able to tell when a child has just peed once when using a sposie, which is integral to being able to cue and to respond. so cloth is hands down the preferred method of diaper back-up among EC'ers.

ETA... just re-reading your post... you think that it wouldn't make a difference to your child whether you responded to "i need to puke" by continuing to do what you're doing, vs. helping him find a receptacle and let him know it'll be OK?

[felix23]

Question for those who think EC is always the best, what about the cases (like mine and at least one other here in this thread) where the babies hated being held over a potty? Even if they gave signals, wouldn't it be kind of mean to stress them out by holding them over a potty instead of letting them use the diaper which didn't stress them out? Isn't the whole point of being AP listening to your baby? So if the baby hates potty time and likes diapers, wouldn't the most AP method be, even if they signal, let them use a diaper?

The over all feel I've gotten from this thread is that most (not all, but most) of the ECers feel like it is always best for the baby. Even though I attempt to EC, I don't feel like it is the best, or even the most natural, way.

[pixiepunk]

it has been reiterated over and over again by ECers in this thread that *listening to your child's communication* is the cornerstone to EC. I know I said in one post, listening to what my child was telling me about her elimination... even when what she was saying was "damn it, i don't want to sit on the potty right now, mom!"

but EC'ers will also tell you that how a child feels about eliminating, as well as which receptacle they prefer and the position in which they eliminate, is not a static thing. what *is* static with a growing, changing baby? so while a baby might fuss for a moment due to the change in air temperature or position, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are expressing a preference to soil themselves. sometimes, the reasons of which are only known to the child, they prefer a different receptacle or a different hold or a different location in order to be happy and eliminate - that's all part of the communication, responding to the child and discerning what they need at any given time. my DD2 has two little potties, they are slightly different shapes/sizes. and sometimes she wants the white one and sometimes she wants the blue one, and sometimes she wants the big potty (and sometimes she wants to face backwards on the big potty and sometimes she wants to face forwards ). who knows why but her? but if i thought when i put her on the white potty that she just didn't want to go and shrugged and put a diaper on her, i wouldn't really be listening to what she had to say, i'd just be giving up trying.

many babies cry when you change their diapers, and i don't think anyone here would suggest that it would be more AP to let your child fester for hours in a filthy diaper rather than remove the soiled diaper, even if doing so caused a brief moment of discomfort and upset for the baby. because even if a child *doesn't* express upset or discomfort in a dirty diaper, *we* know that it is not sanitary to keep them in it, even if it makes them happy to keep it on, and sad to change it. sometimes my 19 month old cries when i try to put gloves and a hat on her to go outside and play. but guess what, i'm not going to let her get frostbite just because she does not want to wear gloves. being AP doesn't mean letting your child do anything they want in order to avoid ever having them express a moment's discontent. and sometimes a child's needs and a child's wants are not the same thing, and that results in a temporary unhappiness that usually rectifies itself immediately once the child realizes that their needs were met. "i don't want to sit at the dinner table, i want to keep playing! waaaah.... oh wait, that food looks delicious, i'm starving! yummy!" yes, there are some kids who will always stop when hungry and ask for food, and others who'd practically starve if you left it up to them to ask to be fed. and many kids in the middle who sometimes stop and sometimes need to be gently led. elimination is not any different, some kids will make it blatantly obvious when they have to go and stop everything to take care of it, and others need regular reminders and a mom who stays aware of subtle signals and the clock to take care of that need. and many others will sometimes stop and sometimes need to be gently led. and maybe if they protest dinner time a lot one particular evening, they're really not hungry, and you leave them alone to play. and maybe if they're really protesting the potty, it means they don't need to go right now. i'm not a "you're going to sit here and eat everything on your plate if you're here till the morning" mom, and i'm not a "you're going to sit on this potty till something comes out" mom either. that's not respectful, that's forcing your will upon your child and it has no place under the umbrella of EC.

i don't know any EC'ers who would continue to try and keep a baby held over a receptacle or on a potty/toilet if they were arching their back, really crying or showing other strong signs of protest. that is child abuse, IMO, not EC. almost all of us have dealt with the "potty pause" - a period of time, usually during a developmental milestone, teething or illness, when a child just doesn't much want to deal with the potty. so you use diapers for backup for everyone's sanity, you cue and change immediately when they are using the diaper, you continue to offer and respect the child's refusal, and after a day or a week or a month or whatever it happens to be, the child is back to the potty again, as if there was no pause at all, and often with increased interest and awareness. it's all part of the *communication* which for most of us is the entire point in the whole thing, and not having to clean up poopy diapers and consistent dry nights at 4 months old and potential early potty independence and the rest of it are just the icing on the cake.

i know there's been a lot of dissing of Ingrid Bauer's book, but one thing she said that really hit home for me was that, much like a nursing strike, a potty pause is often an indication that something is going on. maybe it's simply an illness or milestone that's got baby's attention. maybe it's the baby's way of expressing that there's been a lot of disruption in his/her life and they need extra attention and snuggles. maybe it's simply a sign that the parent needs to re-examine the child's signals, that baby is signaling in a new way that the parent hasn't caught onto yet. it's all part of the journey, and as you figure these things out it enhances your understanding of your child and how s/he communicates what s/he needs.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

a 2 year old and an infant are really worlds apart. i would expect anyone to respond to a 2 year olds verbal exclamation that they are about to poo or pee by offering the toilet. yes, that's communicating about elimination, but IMO it's not EC at that point (though i do think that PL'ing can be done using some EC tools and I always encourage my friends who are doing PL'ing to do so if they ask). the point of EC, IMO, is that you don't wait until they are developmentally capable of verbally exclaiming "poop!" or "pee!" before you respond to their communication about needing to eliminate.

also, i don't see how anyone can argue that responding to a need when a child *does* communicate it - regardless of the need - would not enhance a child's trust in their parents vs. the alternative of not responding to the communicated need. it's not a matter of "your child won't trust you anymore" obviously, but I don't see why it's so hard to get that it would enhance the bond and the feelings of trust when their communicated need is heard and responded to. there are *lots* of parenting choices that can enhance that feeling of bonding and trust, but it doesn't mean that if you don't do them your child won't trust you or there will not be any bond. it's not any more black and white with EC than with anything else, but it can and does enhance that bond - for both the mother and the child. for example, my mom and i are best friends. i love and respect her and have always felt well-bonded and trust her implicitly. she's a great mom. she only nursed me for 6 months, i crib slept from birth with some CIO, etc. etc. but it's the big-picture and the overall intent of the parent that determines the basic feeling of trust and bond - all the rest of it is just gravy, just icing on the cake that can enhance what already exists.

as for the way that EC can answer diaper questions... EC'ers just don't tend to have those issues with diapers. most don't even use diaper covers at all except for outings, and when you change immediately after every "miss" you're not going to be dealing with a lot of leaks/wicking. those issues usually come from heavily soaked diapers. IME, my oldest who i thought was a "heavy wetter" was actually a frequent pee-er, so when i changed her after an hour in the morning and the diaper was soaked, i came to find out once starting EC that she had actually peed 3 or 4 times in that period of time, not once like i had assumed. so what i needed wasn't a thicker more absorbent diaper, what i needed was to be more aware of how often she actually went so i could change her more frequently. same with night time - i had switched to sposies at night because i thought she was "flooding" her diaper with one heavy pee and the cloth couldn't hold it all fast enough. what was really happening was it was already wet and by the 3rd time she peed at night even the big huge cloth concoction i had stuffed her into wasn't enough to hold it all in. EC'ers tend to prefer less-absorbent diapers that don't have 'feel dry' layers or lots of thickness and absorbency because they mask the feeling of wetness for the child and thick diapers often keep the parent from noticing when the baby has peed just once. thin diapers with less absorbency don't usually need to be stripped, they tend to clean up quickly and easily and dry fast. for me, EC *was* an answer to pretty much every cloth diaper problem I ever had. once i switched to thin diapers with little absorbency, stopped using covers at home and tuned into my child's elimination patterns, all my diaper issues went away.

on a side note i think it's odd that all the EC'ers you know use sposies. I've never met a single one (unless their child was in daycare and it was required, and even then they used cloth at home). sposies hide the feeling of wetness, and EC'ers want their kids to maintain their awareness of peeing=feeling wet. plus i've never been able to tell when a child has just peed once when using a sposie, which is integral to being able to cue and to respond. so cloth is hands down the preferred method of diaper back-up among EC'ers.

ETA... just re-reading your post... you think that it wouldn't make a difference to your child whether you responded to "i need to puke" by continuing to do what you're doing, vs. helping him find a receptacle and let him know it'll be OK?

I'm in NYC, so the 2 ECers I know, use disposables when they use diapers. Most people don't have washers and dryers, so if you're not using enough cloth to make a special trip to the laundromat for them, I'm sure it would be more of a pain to EC and cloth.

And truly, what turned me off of EC is the constant refrain to "do EC instead of CD" on a cloth diapering board, where people have cloth diapering questions. You deal with less cd problems, that's great for you, but it's a little like answering questions about getting out of debt by answering that you've never have trouble with debt because you have a huge nest egg. That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant to the question someone asked.

It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

I'm not sure what you mean by your ETA. He gives me about 5 seconds of warning before he pukes, and I hold him. There's no time to find a "proper receptacle," and actually trying to run him to the bathroom or over a bucket or something versus comforting him and holding him I think would be less respectful. He's not going to be more comfortable held out to puke in the toilet than he is puking in my arms onto a towel or the floor. He just wants to be held, the "receptacle" doesn't matter. the also sick 5 year old wants to go to the bathroom to puke, but she also wants to be held. Neither one wants to be run and jostled there in a hurry. So are you trying to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong? Disrespectful? Or what? I just get covered in puke and then change us both.