If you don't EC... - Page 13

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I'm in NYC, so the 2 ECers I know, use disposables when they use diapers. Most people don't have washers and dryers, so if you're not using enough cloth to make a special trip to the laundromat for them, I'm sure it would be more of a pain to EC and cloth.

And truly, what turned me off of EC is the constant refrain to "do EC instead of CD" on a cloth diapering board, where people have cloth diapering questions. You deal with less cd problems, that's great for you, but it's a little like answering questions about getting out of debt by answering that you've never have trouble with debt because you have a huge nest egg. That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant to the question someone asked.

It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

in general, people want to hear information that supports their choices. people who have an epidural get all up in arms when the words "natural birth" are used to refer to vaginal birth without intervention. "what, my birth was against nature?!" sometimes you can't express what a life-changing experience your vaginal birth was to someone who had a c-section without them feeling like a failure, though that was surely not your intent. no one can express to an acquaintance who says they didn't BF because it was "too hard" that their experience was that BF'ing was super easy and convenient, without the bottle feeder feeling defensive and judged. when asked why you would co-sleep by a CIO/crib sleeping family, you express that you like to know your LO is safe and don't feel comfortable letting them cry, and suddenly you are saying that they don't care if their children are safe and they are a horrible person for letting their child "self-sooth." so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

got it.

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I'm not sure what you mean by your ETA. He gives me about 5 seconds of warning before he pukes, and I hold him. There's no time to find a "proper receptacle," and actually trying to run him to the bathroom or over a bucket or something versus comforting him and holding him I think would be less respectful. He's not going to be more comfortable held out to puke in the toilet than he is puking in my arms onto a towel or the floor. He just wants to be held, the "receptacle" doesn't matter. the also sick 5 year old wants to go to the bathroom to puke, but she also wants to be held. Neither one wants to be run and jostled there in a hurry. So are you trying to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong? Disrespectful? Or what? I just get covered in puke and then change us both.

WHAT?!?! No. You said:

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least! He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts

you are reponding to their need. your child will remember forever being held and loved while he got sick. the opposite of that would be child about to puke, you ignoring it and continuing to do what you want to do. you don't think there's a huge chasm of difference between the two responses? one that enhances your child's existing trust that you are there for him, and one that says "i can't be bothered with your mess right now." ?! EC isn't just about dangling a child over a receptacle. I don't know how that could be made any plainer. it's about listening to the child and helping them take care of one of their basic needs. responding. being there. snuggling with them, getting excited with them when they are clearly proud of themselves for what they just did. just like you probably are for every other thing they do from the minute they are born until they can take care of almost everything for themselves. for some reason our society has deemed elimination exempt from that same attention and respect, so it's hard for people to believe that paying direct attention to that need might enhance the trust or the bond between a child and his/her parent. but it does. do you care? is it important to you? that's up to you. but just like paying attention and responding to any other need your child has, it can and does deepen the connection between you.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

That's not something I said, and I haven't seen it elsewhere in the thread, but its a looooong thread. I've seen lots of answers to a question that wasn't asked though. This thread is titled "If you don't EC," not "here's why all the non-ECers should EC."

I haven't had any trouble with the ECers I know in person. They know I cd, and say at most "Is it a hassle?" No, not for us, in our family, with our schedule, with our washer dryer access. I can respond "Isn't it a hassle to EC?" and hear that no, not for them, in their family, with their schedule, with their sposies and no washer-dryer.

One EC friend hates wiping poopy butts and wouldn't want to deal with poopy cloth. I get twitchy at the idea of cleaning out a little potty (I don't have one!), or the sink, have a dog that would lunge for such a thing (*that* is ewwwwww!) and dislike the idea of using more public bathrooms than absolutely necessary. She has a big bathroom, I have a tiny one. I know these issues "could" be overcome if I wished to EC, but I don't see how that would be "better" than the cd groove we have going.

I truly don't see how either one is more work or more respectful or loving. EC isn't necessarily harder than other options, and works great for some people, I think most MDCers know that. It's also not the answer to every problem with diapering or potty learning.

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

in general, people want to hear information that supports their choices. people who have an epidural get all up in arms when the words "natural birth" are used to refer to vaginal birth without intervention. "what, my birth was against nature?!" sometimes you can't express what a life-changing experience your vaginal birth was to someone who had a c-section without them feeling like a failure, though that was surely not your intent. no one can express to an acquaintance who says they didn't BF because it was "too hard" that their experience was that BF'ing was super easy and convenient, without the bottle feeder feeling defensive and judged. when asked why you would co-sleep by a CIO/crib sleeping family, you express that you like to know your LO is safe and don't feel comfortable letting them cry, and suddenly you are saying that they don't care if their children are safe and they are a horrible person for letting their child "self-sooth." so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

got it.

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. I had a c/s. Not one I wanted, but it doesn't bother ME to hear others wax on about their drug free all natural birth. Not one bit. I was induced due to medical reasons. I got an epidural after 10 hours of pitocin hell. Do I feel 'less than' someone who birthed without drugs? Nope.

As for breastfeeding, it's still not something I enjoy. It was HARD the first few months. And I must admit, once ds turned one and got a few bottles of cow's milk, I felt some relief. I no longer had to deal with every 10 minute nursings. That lasted forever. So, for me, sure, some moms might wax on about how easy, no-issues they had with bf. Does that make me feel bad? Nope.

Co-sleeping, for ME, was the right choice. For others it's NOT. I'm not going to go into a whole diatribe trying to convince someone it's better than crib sleeping.

What I hear from this thread is that all and any excuses/reasons are seen as 1) not valid, and 2) misrepresentative of EC. Even when people who HAVE tried EC talk about why it didn't work for them, the consensus is that it was because there was 'something wrong' with the baby.

People feel JUDGED when others invalidate their reasons. For the women who stopped breastfeeding because it was too hard--maybe it really was for them. Just because someone can bf after getting thrush and mastitis doesn't mean everyone can. Just because someone can go through labor without painkillers DOESN'T mean everyone can. Just because a lot of people like co-sleeping DOESN'T mean everyone does/can.

And I think, that's what a lot of people who DON'T EC were trying to say. They gave their reasons. Then others rebutted/invalidated their reasons. THAT made people mad. Because, really, who is All-Knowing enough to determine which reasons are valid or invalid?

Seriously, WHAT reason would be a good reason to NOT EC?

Ami

[Sk8ermaiden]

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

People feel JUDGED when others invalidate their reasons. For the women who stopped breastfeeding because it was too hard--maybe it really was for them. Just because someone can bf after getting thrush and mastitis doesn't mean everyone can. Just because someone can go through labor without painkillers DOESN'T mean everyone can. Just because a lot of people like co-sleeping DOESN'T mean everyone does/can.

I was going to say this too. I had a c/s but LOVE to hear about natural births (even if I do get jealous ). I absolutely HATE breastfeeding and hurt through every nursing session, so I totally get when someone says it was too hard. I like to be close to my baby, but the same room is close enough and I do not feel judged when others relate their reasons for cosleeping. Yet somehow, many (not even most, but many) of the ECers on this thread have been pretty judgmental in how they come across.

I love, love, love babywearing. I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I do then to evangelize about it, but I still can understand that some people don't and they have valid reasons for that. Even if they say it's too difficult and my personal experience is that it's a million times easier than lugging around a stroller - that doesn't mean that they feel the same way.

And just for the record - I actually tried this a little bit this week. I already know she doesn't ever signal pee and doesn't signal poop until she actually is pooping, so I don't know how that would go. BUT I held her over the potty whenever she woke up and after eating. We didn't catch anything, but even if we had, it confirmed for me that I find it to be a huge hassle and much more inconvenient than changing diapers. No thank you - it's just not for us.

I agree though! It seems that people were asked for reasons - but the tone of the thread is that there are no valid reasons.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Carlyle

I dunno, I'm sure it's not the same for all kids. But I swear, the first time I gave my dd the chance to pee in the potty (at 3 months old), she just grinned and craned around to look up at me like "FINALLY!" I think for my dd, she felt the sensation of needing to pee and wasn't sure what to do about it, so she cried (not all kids do this, I know). So when I helped her do it in a way that felt good to her, she appreciated it and felt "listened to" from a very young age. I dunno. Like I said, I know it's different for all babies, and I'm totally putting my "spin" on her reactions. That's just why it felt more bonding for us.

I think my DD was the same way. She would get fussy before she peed or pooped. Once it was out, she didn't actually care about being wet or messy - she just didn't like the way she felt right before she did it. Whether that meant she didn't want to do it in her diaper or she just felt uncomfortable before going, I have no way of knowing. I just know she got a little more active and a little fussy right before going. Even that only lasted the first few months. After that, nothing. Maybe that was because we mostly had it down and got most of it in the potty, so she felt no need to get upset, but I'm guessing it was more just a natural progression for her, because she didn't freak out when it didn't get in the potty, and therefore did wind up in her diaper.

[Plummeting]

I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.
Back when DD was a baby I really didn't get why people didn't EC. A few years down the road and a lot more experience later, I do get it. Parenting tends to do that to you - the longer you parent, the more you understand why other people do things differently sometimes. I just thought that it was worthwhile to point out that EC is not universally experienced as more difficult, more of a hassle or more stressful than diapering. That is the experience of some and that's perfectly valid. It's just incorrect for people to claim that EC automatically is any of the above. That's only their opinion and experience - it's not a universal truth. I responded with my experience as an ECer because I felt that it was being viewed by some as a universal truth, rather than as any individual's personal opinion or experience.

I have lots of cute cloth diapers waiting for the new baby, but I have literally zero desire to be changing poopy dipes on a toddler. My personal opinion is that that is too much of a hassle. Not everyone feels the same way, so if I were to view it as some universal truth, I would be wrong.

[JTA Mom]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.
It's just incorrect for people to claim that EC automatically is any of the above. That's only their opinion and experience - it's not a universal truth. I responded with my experience as an ECer because I felt that it was being viewed by some as a universal truth, rather than as any individual's personal opinion or experience.

I have lots of cute cloth diapers waiting for the new baby, but I have literally zero desire to be changing poopy dipes on a toddler. My personal opinion is that that is too much of a hassle. Not everyone feels the same way, so if I were to view it as some universal truth, I would be wrong.

First off, no one is upset because people who DO EC responded. At least, I'm not. Nor has anyone said EC was universally X.

Where people got annoyed was when their reason was invalidated. Just like it's not right to invalidate your feeling that EC is easier than changing a poopy diaper, it's not right for you (not speaking directly to you, Plummeting, a general you) to say to someone that because they found EC to be more hassle than changing a poopy diaper that they are wrong/bad because of *fill in the blank*.

My son HATED to be worn. Hated the wrap, sling, pouch and mei tai. Doesn't mean I was doing it wrong, or that we are less attached somehow because I didn't wear him. In this thread, it seems to be that whatever someone's reason for not ECing, it's 'wrong' or somehow assumed to be a blanket statement against EC, when all it is is a personal reason why they didn't.

Ami

[Carlyle]

Sorry if I've offended...I'm really trying to be neutral and nice to both ec'ers and non-ec'ers alike. I'm feeling hurt by all of the "the ec'ers on this thread are judgmental" type comments. I know that some have come across that way, and I hope that I haven't. (for what it's worth, I'm also hurt and saddened when I see ec'ers using terms like "poo-bag" and "sit in their own filth") I was hoping that some of us on this thread might get to a place where we understand others' point of view better.

I feel like I've learned a lot, and I hope that people haven't been so hurt by some of the ec folks' choice of language that they've missed what others of us are trying to share. I've just been trying hard to answer some of the questions about ec that have come up and to speak up a little bit in response to the "I just wouldn't want pee/poop all over my house" type comments that I saw upthread. It hurts me to think that this is how people perceive me (covered in fecal matter and watching my dd like a hawk to the exclusion of everything else in my life) and it was hard to sit and read it without responding (even though I recognize that this is a thread of reasons that people don't ec).

So yeah. I hope people realize that I really do respect all diapering/ecing choices and that I'm not trying to evangelize ec by posting on this thread--just hoping to further a little more mutual understanding and respect.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by felix23

Question for those who think EC is always the best, what about the cases (like mine and at least one other here in this thread) where the babies hated being held over a potty? Even if they gave signals, wouldn't it be kind of mean to stress them out by holding them over a potty instead of letting them use the diaper which didn't stress them out? Isn't the whole point of being AP listening to your baby? So if the baby hates potty time and likes diapers, wouldn't the most AP method be, even if they signal, let them use a diaper?

Well, I don't think that ec is always the best, but I'll tell you what I plan to do if any of my future babies acted the same way yours did. Please don't take this as me saying this is what YOU should have done or anything, I'm just trying to give you an idea of what a person in this situation could do if they still really wanted to do ec (since you asked).

If my baby didn't like being naked or held over a potty as a newborn/young baby, I would probably just focus on getting them used to my "ssss" noise and to associate it with the feeling of peeing/pooping. Any time that I noticed that they were peeing or pooping (during a diaper change, during bum-airing naked time, if I were carrying them in a sling and noticed them getting warm in the diaper region, if I smelled a poop brewing, etc), I would say "sssss, you're peeing!" or something like that.

Every few days or whatever felt right, I'd try the potty again at a likely time. If s/he protested, I would stop. I would also try to make any "potty offers" as low key as possible. I would do it with a potty-bowl between my legs and just nudge diaper to the side without fully taking it off, to help him/her feel more secure than a full on diaper-off over the big potty thing (I got good at this with dd, but it would definitely be harder without practice). Things change so quickly with babies, and I would hope that s/he stopped minding an occasional naked butt after a while.

Just reread some of your posts. With a 1 year old, I'd probably keep it even more low key until I saw him/her showing signs that s/he was more interested. I'd offer verbally a couple of times a month--if she fussed, I'd stop. Letting her know when I was using the potty and ask her if she wanted to come too. Talking about what I was doing while I was changing her diaper. Stuff like that. I'd pay more attention (and probably get a book about using the potty or something) around 18 months--I've seen a TON of babies (ec and non ec'd alike) go through some sort of "window of opportunity" around that time. They just seem more aware of peeing/pooping. Grabbing diapers when they go, following adults to the potty, playing with the potty, sitting on the potty for fun or to imitate mom/dad, etc.


Just for the record, I think ec is not the best choice if a parent just isn't into it (for any of the reasons mentioned in this thread) or if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.

[yamilee21]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

... It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

I practice EC, but I agree with this completely. And it isn't just toward people who do not practice EC, a lot of times, when EC-practicing parents mention going through not-so-smooth times with EC, the responses tend to have an underlying message of "it's because you're doing something wrong" or, even more annoyingly, finding all kinds of excuses that have nothing to do with the problem, or offering illogical solutions.

Originally Posted by Carlyle

... if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.

Many EC parents do forget, and sometimes are too focused on bragging or mocking parents who are "stuck" changing diapers. I think that may be more because EC is relatively rare in U.S./western societies, and U.S. society in particular is so goal-oriented - everything has to be done for a benefit. People are looking for results; if EC could absolutely guarantee a 100% toilet trained child by 12 months, maybe everyone would do it. But if the results are merely a child who eventually trains at the same age as his/her non-EC peers, with maybe fewer diapers used/bought along the way, the value is not as obvious.

As for listening to the kid, well, my kid was very verbal, and sometimes explicitly told me he *wanted* to use a diaper to relieve himself. He was clearly communicating, but few people in the EC world are interested in hearing about that kind of communication.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Carlyle

Well, I don't think that ec is always the best, but I'll tell you what I plan to do if any of my future babies acted the same way yours did. Please don't take this as me saying this is what YOU should have done or anything, I'm just trying to give you an idea of what a person in this situation could do if they still really wanted to do ec (since you asked).

If my baby didn't like being naked or held over a potty as a newborn/young baby, I would probably just focus on getting them used to my "ssss" noise and to associate it with the feeling of peeing/pooping. Any time that I noticed that they were peeing or pooping (during a diaper change, during bum-airing naked time, if I were carrying them in a sling and noticed them getting warm in the diaper region, if I smelled a poop brewing, etc), I would say "sssss, you're peeing!" or something like that.

Every few days or whatever felt right, I'd try the potty again at a likely time. If s/he protested, I would stop. I would also try to make any "potty offers" as low key as possible. I would do it with a potty-bowl between my legs and just nudge diaper to the side without fully taking it off, to help him/her feel more secure than a full on diaper-off over the big potty thing (I got good at this with dd, but it would definitely be harder without practice). Things change so quickly with babies, and I would hope that s/he stopped minding an occasional naked butt after a while.

Just reread some of your posts. With a 1 year old, I'd probably keep it even more low key until I saw him/her showing signs that s/he was more interested. I'd offer verbally a couple of times a month--if she fussed, I'd stop. Letting her know when I was using the potty and ask her if she wanted to come too. Talking about what I was doing while I was changing her diaper. Stuff like that. I'd pay more attention (and probably get a book about using the potty or something) around 18 months--I've seen a TON of babies (ec and non ec'd alike) go through some sort of "window of opportunity" around that time. They just seem more aware of peeing/pooping. Grabbing diapers when they go, following adults to the potty, playing with the potty, sitting on the potty for fun or to imitate mom/dad, etc.


Just for the record, I think ec is not the best choice if a parent just isn't into it (for any of the reasons mentioned in this thread) or if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.

Thanks for sharing what you would do. I personally don't prize EC enough and don't think it is the most natural method in this situation, so I wouldn't do that. I will try the advice on trying to get a one year old to EC. Thank you.

I think I would add to your last paragraph, that EC isn't always the best choice for the baby either. Especially if the baby isn't into it. I personally, don't feel like it would have been in my dd2's best interest to force EC. Sure, it would have been in my best interest if she would have ECed, hey, it would be great for me if she did it now! But I'm going to try EC with her for the next couple of day, and if she still has no interest, then I'm just going to drop it wait till she gives me signs that she is ready to use the potty. I just don't think it would be in her best interest to spend a lot of time focusing on getting her to EC. And since my family doesn't need her to EC, I'm not going to push it. I'm sure if I was stranded on an island with no diapers, I could force her to EC, but since I'm not, there is really just no reason.

If I ever have another baby, I'll probably attempt to EC again, but with the knowledge that it isn't always best for the baby, and that dropping it and moving to diapers is sometimes the best for everyone.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.

I don't think that's why anyone is upset at all. I think that if you actually go through and read this thread, people are upset by the critical, judgmental and patronizing tone of some (not all, not even most, but certainly some) of the EC proponents.

FWIW, it's a HUGE pet peeve of mine when people/politicians/large corporations frame an apology in such a way where the people who were offended or hurt are at fault. "I'm sorry if/that we offended you" is an apology; "I'm sorry that you were offended" is not.

[Daffodil]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to decide not to keep on with EC because they tried it and it seemed like too much hassle, or the baby didn't seem to like it, or they couldn't get it to work. Or to decide not even to try it because they read about it and thought it sounded like too much hassle, or because they haven't seen it work well for other people.

But I think fewer people would make those decisions if EC were more mainstream and people had better information about it, and the chance to see more people doing it in real life. It might not seem like so much work if you saw lots of other people doing that same work, or if you knew a lot of people who had gotten past the stage where it can be more work than diapering and reached the stage where it's less work. You might not have to give up because it wasn't working for you if you were able to get some good advice about different things to try.

I think when people sound like they're saying someone else's reasons for not doing EC are invalid, they're mostly just saying, "Your reason might not have existed if only you had had better help and information," not "Your reason didn't make sense and you made the wrong choice." Just like if you knew someone who stopped breastfeeding because it was too painful. You might wonder whether a good lactation consultant could have helped her nurse without so much pain. You might suggest that next time she could try seeing a lactation consultant. But you might still think, given that she hadn't had that kind of help, that it was perfectly reasonable of her to stop breastfeeding.

[bubbamummy]

I love cloth diapering too much

no really, Im just not interested in it. I have a toddler already and just cant imagine adding something else to my already full plate.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Daffodil

I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to decide not to keep on with EC because they tried it and it seemed like too much hassle, or the baby didn't seem to like it, or they couldn't get it to work. Or to decide not even to try it because they read about it and thought it sounded like too much hassle, or because they haven't seen it work well for other people.

But I think fewer people would make those decisions if EC were more mainstream and people had better information about it, and the chance to see more people doing it in real life. It might not seem like so much work if you saw lots of other people doing that same work, or if you knew a lot of people who had gotten past the stage where it can be more work than diapering and reached the stage where it's less work. You might not have to give up because it wasn't working for you if you were able to get some good advice about different things to try.

I think when people sound like they're saying someone else's reasons for not doing EC are invalid, they're mostly just saying, "Your reason might not have existed if only you had had better help and information," not "Your reason didn't make sense and you made the wrong choice." Just like if you knew someone who stopped breastfeeding because it was too painful. You might wonder whether a good lactation consultant could have helped her nurse without so much pain. You might suggest that next time she could try seeing a lactation consultant. But you might still think, given that she hadn't had that kind of help, that it was perfectly reasonable of her to stop breastfeeding.

And sometimes even with all the help in the world, and being surrounded by people who breastfeed, breastfeeding doesn't work out. Sometimes there really are reasons that breastfeeding doesn't work. I think the acknowledgement that EC doesn't always work (even in the best situations), and that it isn't always in the best interest of the baby is what has upset many of the non-ECers.

[GoBecGo]

I don't EC. From what i have read (including this thread and a few websites and so on about the whole concept) i cannot see how it would be more convenient to me than using nappies. I also homebirth, babywear and breastfeed for convenience. With nappies i had about 1 or 2 accidents a week to clean up/deal with (say one wetting-through and one nappy explosion), if that. I don't know how long it might take for me to get to that stage with EC, but since i can get to that from birth with nappying there is no contest for me.

I can believe babies are born with the awareness that they are about to pee or poo in the immediate future, but i cannot figure out why they would prefer to go in a potty, or even know what a potty is, or the difference between that and going in a nappy. So i can understand that some kids might give signals but i don't really see why responding to that with a potty is better or righter or more preferable, unless you happen to have a baby who hates to be wet (i didn't). Someone above used the analogy of puking and what to do when a kid says they're going to puke - leave them and grab a bowl or hold them and let them puke on a towel/you/the rug - i'd rather be held, and i hold my babies. I hold my babies when they fuss. I don't see how the only appropriate way to respond to a pee/poo signal is to get the nappy off and hold them over a potty - isn't holding/comforting them just as good, in terms of responding to a need, since the need seems to be to communicate what is happening, if they DO communicate it, not to have a potty for it to happen in?

As far as i can see the process seems to have 2 parts:

1. baby being aware of what is about to happen
2. parent TEACHING the baby what to do about that (whatever is preferable to the parent i.e. hold and go in potty, let go and go in nappy)

I can see how 1 might be a basic thing the baby wants to communicate (because i imagine after 9 months of NOT pooping, that function at least must be pretty scary happening multiple times a day until you get used to it, likewise, peeing NOT into (amniotic) fluid feels different and might mean babe needs reassurance), but i can't see how 2 makes any difference at all from the baby's POV so long as it is lovingly done.

[listipton]

Originally Posted by Sheryl1678

My personal theory (and that is all it is) is that EC is a lot like breastfeeding. With accurate information and adequate support, many more parents would do it.

This. I have not tried to EC and when I brought it up to dh, he said 'whatever, but I'm not doing it'. I'm still trying to figure out how to do it and make it work with our lifestyle. Before ds, I didn't even know it existed.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by lach

I don't think that's why anyone is upset at all. I think that if you actually go through and read this thread, people are upset by the critical, judgmental and patronizing tone of some (not all, not even most, but certainly some) of the EC proponents.

Yeah, I know that some people were rude. However, some have wondered why ECers responded to the thread, since the original question was why people don't EC.

FWIW, it's a HUGE pet peeve of mine when people/politicians/large corporations frame an apology in such a way where the people who were offended or hurt are at fault. "I'm sorry if/that we offended you" is an apology; "I'm sorry that you were offended" is not.

I'm not sorry that "we" offended people, because I am not involved in some group effort, so when people were rude or judgmental, I wasn't responsible for that or even associated with it. If anyone was offended by the fact that I posted to the thread, it was an issue that was beyond my control, as I was not judgmental or rude and it was not inappropriate to get involved in the conversation. Therefore, I am simply sorry that people are offended. Sometimes "sorry" is just an expression of sympathy. I feel sympathy for the fact that people are offended, but I don't feel any responsibility for that. If I'd acted inappropriately, then I would be sorry that *I* offended them. I didn't, so if someone is feeling offense, I feel sympathy for the fact that they are. <shrug> So, while I get that you have a pet peeve, it has nothing to do with me.

Originally Posted by JTA Mom

Nor has anyone said EC was universally X.

Some have. They've said it's gross because poop and pee gets everywhere, it's "gimmicky," people do it because they believe noble savage myths, it requires "constantly" watching for cues, babies don't have sphincter control until 18 months and therefore it's impossible that they're actually holding it, you have to invest a lot of time in it/you can't do it if you're busy. Those aren't statements about a personal preference about EC. Those are statements that elimination communication IS something (messy, dirty, not real, impossible) or CAUSES something (stress for parents who spend every minute cleaning up poop/pee or watching baby for some sign). Those are statements that EC is universally X.

The thread has mostly been people giving what they admitted were their own perceptions, but there have definitely been posts in which people stated their opinions as facts, rather than just opinions.

[DevaMajka]

Sorry all, but I think this particular thread has run it's course. I'm going to close it, but leave it on the boards.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to PM me.