She pulled her out of counseling! - Page 2

[greenemami]

Originally Posted by JSMa

Actually it is a play therapy... and DSD loved going. The weeks she did go we had no issues on our weekend with her. She also told us she liked going because the counselor made her happy to come spend the weekend with us.

Also, I would just like to state again... it isn't just H being adamant about DSD talking to someone... her teacher and peditrician have also put in a strong recomendation for her to do so...

As a Mom, I'd have to be very concerned that my child was so troubled that she was hitting everyday at school I'd be doing everything I possibly could to figure out and help her cope with whatever it is... wether it be stemming from my house or not... I honestly have to say that dismissing the child's feelings and her acting out because it doesn't have to do with Mom is a very surprising attitude here... I thought we are to respect our children and help them with all their problems? I'm sure our children will face many outside obstacles in their lives... should we just dismiss them and not get them help for their problems if they have nothing to do with us directly??

I agree-maybe if it was just your dh telling his ex that dsd was having problems, I could see how she could dismiss it as his problem-however, with the teacher and the pediatrician backing him up, I just can't understand how it is okay for the mom to ignore the problem simply because it isn't her fault or direct problem, especially since dsd enjoyed going and benefited from it. I wish you luck finding another therapist that you guys can take her too, and I hope it continues to help your dsd.

[flapjack]

Two thoughts. Any child can have need of therapy. It's not the exclusive province of children of divorce, with a father with anger management issues, poor communication between the three (four?) adults involved and any of the myriad other stuff that goes on.

Secondly, JSMa, I think last time this came up, I told you that I thought that you were expecting DSD to be a bigger girl than she is. Stuff about bedtime, responsibilities- 5 is still just a baby in so, so many ways, and often kids do have a really hard time adjusting to full time schooling. For some, they act out at school, for others, at home.

I am absolutely beside myself freaking out for your DSD over the line "H is so upset and agitated right now" because the way you've told it in the past, his way of dealing with upset is to make everyone else's life a living hell. Please stay safe.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by homewithtwinsmama

If I was a single mama, having the vast majority of the the residency of this child and the care that goes along with it, and not enough money for it and a hostile ex demanding it, then I would say that it was more than I could handle and be pretty indifferent to it. Wanting therapy and being able to have the time and money to do so are two different things. And if, as the mother claims, this is all coming from the tensions and hostility in the other parent's household, then I would not be making it a priority. And perhaps the mother does not believe therapy is the best way to handle it. How about a trial of no visitation at dad's home for a few months? If the school problems, etc. cease then everyone would be clear about where the child's issues are coming from. Hearing about JSMa's family in her many posts, I think my sympathy is with the ex and with hoping JSMa gets out of the relationship as well. The husband/exhusband seems to be a pretty big UAV.

Whoa. Seriously? You think she should not see her dad at all for a few months?? I can tell you, as a child of divorced parents, where there was a lot of stress at times at various houses, not seeing my dad (even if his house was the stressful one) would be very very detrimental to me and my raltionship with both parents. I'm shocked you would suggest sucha a thing. And sad too. Unless the dad is abusing the daughter I think that suggestion is way out of line.

[aricha]

Originally Posted by homewithtwinsmama

How about a trial of no visitation at dad's home for a few months? If the school problems, etc. cease then everyone would be clear about where the child's issues are coming from.

Following that logic, she should stop going to school for a while, too...

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by UptownZoo

She can't make these decisions unilaterally. With joint legal custody, the only decisions either parent can make on their own is for emergent medical care. All other decisions have to be made jointly.

Boy, that's a nice theory! But in practice, there is a very real catch-22:
* If the custodial parent decides to operate unilaterally and just inform the NCP of her choices after the fact (or not inform him at all), his only choice is to take her back to court.
* Depending what unilateral actions she has taken, the court may not be able to retroactively "fix" what has already been done, nor can the court force her to involve the NCP in future decision-making - it can only scold/warn her to do so.
* The very act of the parties having to return to court multiple times indicates that they're "incapable of co-parenting", which requires the court to give one parent sole custody and reduce the other to having only visitation rights. Consider this long and hard: an effective way to get yourself sole custody is to be so uncooperative with your child's other parent that the court finally throws up its hands and says, "OK, have what you want! We no longer expect you to cooperate and agree that you can call all the shots."
* Arguably, the CP's lack of cooperation COULD lead to a change in custody, but that is extremely rare. Changes of custody are considered disruptive to the child and are only supposed to occur if the child's best interest is not being served. The fact that the NCP is being treated unfairly does not, of itself, justify a modification. If the CP is making decisions that some objective person could say are good for the child...she's just not including the NCP in them like she should...that's not a reason to give the NCP custody, it's only a reason for the court to declare it fruitless to expect these two parents to cooperate with each other.

That said, certainly if your husband has custodial (not just visitation) rights, you have every right to take your SD to counseling during your parenting time, regardless whether it annoys her mother. But the only thing you can do to force Mom to take her during HER parenting time is go through the effort of convincing a judge the child NEEDS to go. Then, if Mom doesn't take her, she's not meeting what the court recognizes to be her needs. That could be grounds for a custody change. But you have to ask yourself: is that what you really want? Is that really best for this kid? Fairly recently - and more than once - you've indicated you don't even like her. You're not sure whether your marriage will be intact, down the road. And, healthy or not, fair or not, the kid seems pretty attached to and comfortable with her mom.

I agree that counseling should happen consistently and that, if objective professionals agree your SD needs counseling, then Mom's wrong to hide behind the excuse that the problems are all at your house (even if they were, does that change the fact that her kid needs counseling!?) HOWEVER, perhaps in this situation it's best to focus on what's under your control and not fight so hard to force Mom to do what you want that you could potentially end up with more responsibility for this child than you really desire.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by vbactivist

Unless the dad is abusing the daughter I think that suggestion (that JSMa's SD spend a few months without visiting her Dad is way out of line.

Me, too! Big time! I hate it when people view fathers as optional parts of the picture! Do you also believe that you can pick any several-month period in a child's relationship with its mother and write off that period as irrelevant and disposable? Yikes!

[sunflowers]

I understand dad only sees his dd 4 days per month.

If he feels so strongly about this issue, can't he make the appointments during the week and take dd to them? That way mom wouldn't be able to make any excuses. He could even schedule them at the beginning or end of the school day so mom wouldn't have to make dd specifically available for them. He could sign her into or out of school on those days. *I suggested the beginning/end of the school day as opposed to the middle of the day in order to minimize the transitions for the child*

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by JSMa

The counselor she was seeing doesn't have weekend appointments. H will be looking into trying to find a counselor that does so we can at least take her when we have her for the moment.

Not sure whether this would actually aggravate the situation or not, but could you propose the possibility of a weekly afternoon visit for the purposes of counseling? You or H would pick her up, take her, pay the co-pay and have her home in time for dinner and homework. That way all the excuses are taken away from mom. It may be a PITA for you and your H, but if she really needs counseling then I think it would be more efficient that fighting with mom to get her to cooperate. I agree that with there being joint legal custody she can't just stop the counseling, and in the end there is no judge on this planet that is not going to make accomodations for a child from a split marriage to attend counseling. If it comes down to a legal fight, I'm sure you guys will win.
FWIW, my son acts like a dream at dad's and school and saves it all for me. It's not pleasant but that's the way most kids are.

[Ione]

Originally Posted by Jeannine

Me, too! Big time! I hate it when people view fathers as optional parts of the picture! Do you also believe that you can pick any several-month period in a child's relationship with its mother and write off that period as irrelevant and disposable? Yikes!

But we're not talking about FATHERS here in general. We're talking about JSMa's H, who is by her own accounts ABUSIVE--to the point where she has (hopefully still is, given her posting history) considered leaving him (one of the reasons she has said she stays is to protect her SD).

That said, I think counseling is needed for SD.

No advice on how to break the stalemate, though. Because, I'm pretty sure that a conversation like this would NOT go over well with a judge:
Father: My daughter needs counseling, but my ex won't take her.
Judge: (to ex) Why do you object?
Ex: [whatever reasons, including cost and logistics]
Judge: (to F) Well, why don't you take her on your time and your dime?
F: Because I shouldn't have to pay for it and I don't want to give up any of my limited time.
Judge: So just how important is it, then?

[Smithie]

The thing is, the mother in this picture is no angel either. It's not like JsMa can throw up her hands and say "that's it, I'm out, I know you'll stop having visits with dsd now that I'm not here to do the caregiving and I'm GLAD because you SUCK as a father and a human being." That course of action might be (is!!) the best thing for JsMa and her dd, but it's won't make dsd safe or happy. If I were JsMa, I'd be pretty interested in keeping the counseling going, in the hope that the counselor would get the state involved if the situation in the mom's home escalates at some point in the future when JsMa has perhaps moved on.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Well... H is trying... he is desperately trying to not be abusive. He had a really messed up childhood and is trying to navigate/learn to be a better human being. He has finally started his own counseling.

Yes, it is true I am still considering leaving... but more on terms with I don't think I love him anymore because I am having a hard time getting over how terrible our past is. But he is honestly trying and I have not feared leaving the girls with him in awhile. He definitely has his moody moments... but honestly as humans, who doesn't? He is doing leaps and bounds better now than he ever has.

My position is I see my DSD hurting and confused and terribly anxious. I also know she is an extremely sensitive child. She isn't doing well in school at all... she just isn't picking up several things and her teacher has already hinted that there is a very good chance she is going to be held back next year.

This could very well be leading to DSD acting out at school because she is frustrated. Perhaps a counselor could help her cope with the frustration.

If she were my child and I saw her struggling with full day kindy that badly I'd pull her out... But alas, I'm just the step parent and do not have that power.

Instead I do what I can... Her Mom won't let DSD go to bed until she has corrected all her school work that she got wrong that day and go through her site words twice without mistake.

She wanted us to do the same on our weekends with her... I refused. DSD is only 5 and weekends should be her time to unwind and play. She is in school/after school homework group from 7:30 am til 5:30 pm... this poor kid has a longer day than I do!!!

It's clear to me that she is burned out and that could very well lend to her acting out...

Add in bouncing from care giver to care giver, houses, etc... I think it would do her very well to talk to someone.

And it does concern me that she is starting to turn this aggresion towards DD...

H can't just take her during the afternoon during the week... he is working nights now, and he has to sleep noon-6. He can't cut his sleep anymore that it already is. He cares for DD in the morning.

I know her Mom won't let me take DSD for the afternoon... her newest thing is telling H that I need to learn my place and not be so involved with her daughter since apparantly DSD told her Mom that we told her that I'm her new Mom and she doesn't have to listen to her Mom anymore... H told her we never said anything even remotely close to that and Mom flipped on him stating that we are nothign but liars and she knows she can trust her daughter and that her daughter doesn't lie.

As DSD also told us this past weekend that her Mom's BF is her new Dad... I honestly think DSD is just confused all around.

It's just not a pleasant situation all around...

[Smithie]

"H is trying... he is desperately trying to not be abusive. He had a really messed up childhood and is trying to navigate/learn to be a better human being. He has finally started his own counseling."

This is awesome news. Awesome. Regardless of whether you stay together or not, the more he can heal the better dad and coparent he is going to be.

[PoppyMama]

Wow. It sounds like she has some serious school stress. That kind of reaction is very common the first year kids are in school full-time and are required to have extra work completed at home. I am really surprised that the teacher didn't mention that as a serious stressor. I've had many teachers talk about this exact situation so I know that they are aware but maybe they don't want to say anything because parents are sensitive to being told their kid is in over their head and isn't making it. I hope your dsd gets to start her play therapy back up.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

Wow. It sounds like she has some serious school stress. That kind of reaction is very common the first year kids are in school full-time and are required to have extra work completed at home. I am really surprised that the teacher didn't mention that as a serious stressor. I've had many teachers talk about this exact situation so I know that they are aware but maybe they don't want to say anything because parents are sensitive to being told their kid is in over their head and isn't making it. I hope your dsd gets to start her play therapy back up.

The teacher basically did mention it... she doesn't think DSD has reached a maturity level to deal with a structured all day classroom setting. She said she didn't want to come across negative, but wanted to inform us what she sees. I have thought that since this summer that DSD wasn't going to fare well in an all day program... and H was hesitant too... but ex never listened to us and still denied that her DD was suffering when the teacher pointed it out. She just sat and shook her head in denial the whole parent/teacher conference.


And thanks Smithie... That is my thoughts on H's counseling too... and he said himself that he is sticking through counseling on his own regardless of what happens to us because he is tired of being so angry all the time and he knows he has a lot of things to work on and he said himself he wants to be a better Father. I know he has a big heart... he just had a horrible, horrible example of family life growing up being abused by both his Dad and StepDad, and his Mom never ever advocated for him and stood by and watched while they both abused him. It doesn't excuse his actions as an adult, as he now has the choice of who to be... but I'm glad I have helped open his eyes to how he has become and he is finally seeing it and taking some responsibility for himself.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Ione

But we're not talking about FATHERS here in general. We're talking about JSMa's H, who is by her own accounts ABUSIVE--to the point where she has (hopefully still is, given her posting history) considered leaving him (one of the reasons she has said she stays is to protect her SD)...
I'm pretty sure that a conversation like this would NOT go over well with a judge:
Father: My daughter needs counseling, but my ex won't take her.
Judge: (to ex) Why do you object?
Ex: [whatever reasons, including cost and logistics]
Judge: (to F) Well, why don't you take her on your time and your dime?
F: Because I shouldn't have to pay for it and I don't want to give up any of my limited time.
Judge: So just how important is it, then?

#1- In this thread, it has sounded to me like JSMa and her husband ARE willing to put their money where their mouths are.

#2- I understand JSMa's point to be that the SD needs counseling on a regular basis, not just twice a month when she's with her dad. I have not read her comments to mean that if weekend counseling were available, SD can't go on Dad's weekends.

#3- What does "abuse" mean to you? I must admit I have not read all of JSMa's posts, nor memorized those I have read. But the main complaints I'm aware of her making are that her husband is sometimes unfeeling / unresponsive / impatient / insensitive in response to her (many) stresses and anxieties and that he expects too much of her and doesn't see how taxing the baby, SD, work, etc. are for her. I have seen other posters refer to a single incident in which he yelled at the SD and a single incident where he punched the wall. Not a person. The wall. Not every time he's under stress. Once. Is that accurate? I'm not saying he's a great guy (I don't know him). Maybe he's a rotten match for JSMa and she'd be happier without him. Maybe he could use some parenting and/or stress management classes. But it would frighten me if the general public concluded that any father who exhibits impatience, insensitivity to women's/girls' feelings, or who yells at his child once or displays one angry outburst (that did not result in physical harm to anyone) deserves to lose all contact with his child. Anger in males is not always abuse. And some women are more inclined to do - like be depressed or passive-aggressive or emotionally manipulative or chronically nagging and disparaging - those things can be abusive to children, even though they don't involve violence or obvious outbursts of anger.


#4- You suggest that one of the only reasons JSMa is still in the marriage is to protect her SD from her husband, during visits. You use that to support the idea that the husband is "abusive" and it would be OK to cut off SD's contact with him. That's not a logical position, nor does it seem in keeping with JSMa's own choices. If she honestly believed SD were in danger during visits, the way to protect her would be to call the authorities and support the Mom in seeking to have visitation terminated. Staying in the marriage just to witness the alleged "abuse" when SD's there would only serve to endanger JSMa's own daughter (this is all assuming her husband were actually a danger to his children). JSMa may well have better parenting skills than her husband, but I do not hear her saying that she's afraid for him to be left alone with his daughter.

[the_lissa]

Yes he is abusive. There were many incidents, including screaming at an 8 month old baby.

[Ione]

Originally Posted by Jeannine

You use that to support the idea that the husband is "abusive" and it would be OK to cut off SD's contact with him.

No, I use that to point out that--in this particular instance--the suggestion that SD's contact with him be temporarily suspended cannot be interpreted as stemming uniquely from the idea that fathers in general are optional. Nothing more, nothing less.

[sunflowers]

If he cares for his YDD in the morning, can't he bring her along?

I imagine play therapy is mostly between the therapist and DSD. I don't think the parent is very involved in the actual session. I know with dd's ST, I was in the room but I also know if we continued, the therapy would have continued between dd and the therapist with me waiting in the lounge until the session was complete.

So I guess mom should take time from work every week because dad cannot sit in a lounge with his toddler to wait? Lots of excuses on his part, IMO.

When does he go for his own therapy? Could he schedule a similar time for DSD since that must be a good time for him?

[greenemami]

Originally Posted by sunflowers

If he cares for his YDD in the morning, can't he bring her along?

I imagine play therapy is mostly between the therapist and DSD. I don't think the parent is very involved in the actual session. I know with dd's ST, I was in the room but I also know if we continued, the therapy would have continued between dd and the therapist with me waiting in the lounge until the session was complete.

So I guess mom should take time from work every week because dad cannot sit in a lounge with his toddler to wait? Lots of excuses on his part, IMO.

When does he go for his own therapy? Could he schedule a similar time for DSD since that must be a good time for him?

I believe dsd is in school in the mornings. And I also was not under the impression that the mom was needing to take off work to take her daughter to therapy (OP states that mom takes her to dance class at the same time another day), so it doesn't seem to me like he is making excuses for not taking her. I seriously doubt the mom would be okay with him taking their daughter out of school one morning a week to go to therapy if she is not okay with her going to begin with. For that matter, it doesn't seem likely that she will even be okay with dsd's dad picking her up on one of "mom's days" to take her either. Just my thoughts based on the OPs posts, obviously I dont' know for sure how the mom would feel about these things

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by sunflowers

If he cares for his YDD in the morning, can't he bring her along?

I imagine play therapy is mostly between the therapist and DSD. I don't think the parent is very involved in the actual session. I know with dd's ST, I was in the room but I also know if we continued, the therapy would have continued between dd and the therapist with me waiting in the lounge until the session was complete.

So I guess mom should take time from work every week because dad cannot sit in a lounge with his toddler to wait? Lots of excuses on his part, IMO.

When does he go for his own therapy? Could he schedule a similar time for DSD since that must be a good time for him?

They aren't excuses... they are facts.

He cannot take DSD in the morning as she is in school. He can't just pull her out of school... she is doing very poorly in school, I doubt the teacher is going to okay her missing 2 hours a week, or more, depending on traffic, etc.

Most kids counseling sessions are scheduled for after school, I beleive. At least that is what my own therapist has told me as she deals with a lot of kids herself.

Mom doesn't need to take off anytime at work to take DSD to sessions.

H goes to therapy around noon, he takes DD to daycare a little earlier on the day he goes to counseling, then he goes home to bed to try to get 5-6 hours of sleep before he has to work at night.

A noon time would not work for DSD as she is in a full day school program.