Price, Pottenger, Page, Hawkins, et al

[hummingmom]

As mentioned in the Am I doing something wrong? thread, I'm interested in discussing the actual diet plans that were recommended by Dr. Price and his contemporaries: Francis Pottenger, Melvin Page, Harold Hawkins, and others.

After years spent learning about TF, I still feel like I'm stuck in a maze of questions about the "big picture" of my family's eating habits -- moderate carbs vs. low carbs, lots of veg vs. few veg, dairy vs. no dairy, supplements vs. just food, etc. -- and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one! I'm hoping that we can learn something from these practitioners' experience. Their research and clinical work seems to complement Dr. Price's field work.

I'll be back to add some links... just wanted to open up the topic for discussion, before I forget.

[FairyRae]

So interested in this!

[hummingmom]

Hawkins' book is out of print again. I'll have to go hunt for my copy. Hopefully it wasn't eaten by dust bunnies.

Here's a description of the Pottenger diet, at least the version for sickly children. Not sure if the adult version is different.

Back later...

[Jimibell]

interested in this as well....also how about Dr. Kelly's work?
I have found things improved even more once I adopted metabolic typing diet....curious about Page, don't know much about him.

I've found that metabolic typing determines my ratios of macronutrients and then I use Price and Pottenger to determine the content of those ratios.

[hummingmom]

Found this online: "The following doctors are the main contributors of what is now known as Metabolic Typing: Dr. George Watson, Dr. William Donald Kelley, Dr. Royal Lee, Dr. Weston Price, Dr. Francis Pottenger, Dr. Melvin Page, Dr. Roger Williams, Dr. Emanuel Revici and Dr. Henry Bieler."

source: Atkins vs South Beach vs Metabolic Typing, which seems to be promoting a book by William Wolcott and Trish Fahey

I don't think all of the practitioners mentioned above used metabolic typing in a formal way themselves, though I'm pretty sure Page did.

I remember reading some of Dr. Kelley's writings a while back -- very interesting stuff -- but can't remember the details about diet. Can you share a bit about this?

[hummingmom]

Hmm, looks like maybe Dr. Page didn't use MT after all.

The Page Food Plan

Personally, I'm more inclined toward the "one diet for everyone" plans. Having to cook for six people, I'm not keen on having to manage all that. Not to mention the sibling issues. "Yes, I gave your sister a second slice of bread -- but you can only have one, because of your metabolic type. Here, have a fatty piece of meat instead." Yeah, I can see that going over like a ton of bricks.

[FairyRae]

Thank you hummingmom! I'm loving the links so far! (The Page diet reminds me a lot of the SCD and GAPS with more directions on protein percentages etc., along w/ versions of paleo diets as well...way cool!)

[Theloose]

I've got NaPD, Pottenger's Cats and Degeneration Regeneration. It's been almost a year or so since I read them, though.

The copy of NaPD that I have has Dr. Price's has his letters to family in the back, where he has specific recommendations for calcium and phosphorus, etc. My copy is lent out so I can't quote, but I think it was 1500mg Ca and then a ratio for Phos.

Pottenger talked about eating whole foods, organ meats and raw - but if you don't have raw in a meal, you can sub with a mug of warm gelatin drink to help 'emulsify' the contents of the stomach.

Page, I don't remember specific diet req's - it was more about balancing hormones. I could look through again.

The way I use the information isn't so much as specific diet recommendations (other than Price's calcium) but as 'here, look what's healthy, and that you can affect it with diet.' I'm finding that I have so many pre-existing imbalances that just eating a generally healthy diet that isn't super-specific to me doesn't quite cut it. So I use the information as general guidelines of what's healthy (whole foods only, including organ meats, etc) and then listen to my own cravings to figure out the specifics. And if I start craving 'unhealthy' stuff like sugar, figure out why - lately, if I want syrup on my (mostly egg) pancakes in the morning, it's a sign that I didn't eat enough the night before.

On the other hand, while eating intuitively and on an elimination diet (a la Yoga of Eating that was suggested here a while back), I'm discovering the function of so many foods - like how I need carbs to feel full at a meal but can't eat too many or they make me feel weird, unless I eat lots of protein to go with. And if I eat a lot of fat at a meal, I won't get hungry again for a long time. So if I have just soup for dinner, I eat a bunch but am hungry again really quickly. If I can have some bread to slather butter on, then I don't get hungry again before bed.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but that's what I got from reading those books.

[Jimibell]

As far as metabolic typing is concerned, it is very important to observe your body like whome is doing. You can pretty much figure our what your type is pretty easily just by observing how you feel..
I know immediately if I didn't get enough fat in a meal because I ALWAYS crave sweets afterward. At home this almost never happens to me because I regularly make fat about 40% of my meals. And I've realized that the more fat I eat, the better I feel. (I'm still 5'7" and 125 lbs, woohoo!)

Before I learned about MT I didn't quite zone in on this. I was taking in more carbs and less fat than is ideal for me. Once I tweaked my diet according to my metabolic needs I noticed a subtle but substantial increase in energy and longer periods of not getting hungry after each meal. I used to think nothing of having a cup of kombucha in between meals, with nothing else. Then I would be shaky and not feel well for awhile. But I thought it was the kombucha. Then I learned about my needs and now when I only drink K after meals and I feel fabulous!

As for kids, I think the important thing is to provide the choices for them and then let them follow their instincts. I always provide a very well-balanced meal (I'm a mixed type so I need almost equal amounts of fat, protein and carbs, a little heavier on the fat) for my family and each of us eat according to our needs. Dh is a protein type so he eats the meat and fat first then has a small amount of carbs at the end. My kids seem to be mixed types. I just let them eat whatever they want. As long as I'm offering them something from each group they know what to eat. Your needs can vary even according the time of day. One of my dds eats a high carb breakfast, mixed lunch and almost always a mixed dinner leaning toward more protein and fat.

Dh has lost a lot of his cravings now that he knows that he needs large proportions of fat and protein (dark meat and seafood are best). Boy was he happy when I told him he should eat steak or pork chops cooked in a ton of butter for breakfast every day!!

[FairyRae]

Does Dr. Mercola have a book based on this kind of stuff?

Any good metabolic typing sites to recommend? I think DH and DS need a lot more carbs than me, just naturally. I'm interested in learning more about this!

[Jimibell]

This book "The Metabolic Typing Diet" by Wolcott is a good place to start, here is his site:

http://www.metabolictyping.com/

Dr. William Kelly is considered one of the fathers of MT, here is some a page for his story:
http://www.drkelley.com/CANLIVER55.html

Dr. Mercola will probably have some info on it. I don't trust him but he may have something useful.

Here is some general background info: http://altmedicine.about.com/od/popu...abolicType.htm

Price, Pottenger, Dr. Kelly, Dr. Royal Lee have influenced this methodology. It makes so much sense that just as we are different on the outside, we are also different on the inside.

[FairyRae]

Thanks!!

[Koalamom]

subbing!

[Panserbjorne]

I definitely agree with Jimibell. I really like Wolcott's book, for many reasons. It's definitely worth a read and it's actually quite obvious once you read the types which one you are. And like Jimibell I know my metabolic type and focus there (fats and proteins) and then balance the content of my macronutrients from there....I have pretty high needs for certain nutrients. So I manage those within the context of my metabolic type to keep me feeling relaxed and calm.

It's not as complex as it sounds either. I just know, based on how I feel (and confirmed in the book) that I do far better on fat and protein than on carbs. They really mess me up. So for breakfast I may saute some lamb in butter....then I'm good and stable for a long time. It's not an elaborate formula. It's simply if you feel badly after you eat this, here's why. Now, don't do that. These foods are going to make you feel better.

[newcastlemama]

I am totally a fat/protein type (so is 21 mo old dd--she pickes the fat and protein out of everything and usually skips carbs) My dh and 5 yo ds are mixed types so meals go the same way at our house as Jimibells--I offer choices and we make our plates according to our needs.

I am on the GAPS diet and it is working for healing my food allergies and gut problems. I can tell I have been eating too many GAPS-approved sweets (fruits and honey) this week though because I feel blah, my skin does not look as good, I am having sweet cravings, ect. So tomorrow back on fat and protein! I also do well with lots of low-carb vegs and feel better on supplements.

So all this to say--sometimes I read things that say low-carb is bad, taking supps is bad..but after all these years of trial and error all I can do is listen to my body and do what works for me. Whenever I stop doing that I start feeling unwell.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

So all this to say--sometimes I read things that say low-carb is bad, taking supps is bad..but after all these years of trial and error all I can do is listen to my body and do what works for me. Whenever I stop doing that I start feeling unwell.

couldn't agree more.

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

So all this to say--sometimes I read things that say low-carb is bad, taking supps is bad..but after all these years of trial and error all I can do is listen to my body and do what works for me. Whenever I stop doing that I start feeling unwell.

amen sistah!!

[harrietsmama]

subbing I'm getting ready to start GAPS and this thread addresses the reason i haven't stuck with any of my attempts at eating a better diet to heal myself.

[MamaEli]

Having started the said post, I've almost finished Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. It sheds so much light on much, much much in my life. I did take a metabolic type test online, and wasn't much impressed by it. So, I'd have to recommend the Taubes book.

[hummingmom]

I've just been reading the food plan at the end of Pottenger's Cats.
Here are a few specific details of his recommendations:

Equal amounts of P, F, & C, by weight -- at least 200g of each, or more as needed. This is ~ 3400 calories, 55% fat, 22% protein, 22% carbs.

Everyone, adult and child, should drink a glass of milk at each meal. All dairy products should be raw, and from a dairy that's either certified or personally known to be clean.

Meat is an important part of the diet, and should be served rare or raw. One-third should be organ meats. Recommends raw brain/liver and tomato juice "cocktails." Ground meat is to be freshly ground at home right before serving, to prevent oxidation.

Fruits and low-starch vegetables, both raw and cooked, are eaten in moderate servings at each meal.

Cooked whole grain cereals and freshly stone-ground bread are eaten in moderate servings, along with the above foods.

Mineral salt or herbal salt blends are recommended for seasoning.


Pottenger didn't think it was a good idea to eat beans and starchy root vegetables on a regular basis. This has to do with pH balance, and perhaps digestive issues as well.

The book lists this diet as being protective against "TB and related illnesses," but according to the article I linked to above, Pottenger used it for all his patients, including those who were obese.

Royal Lee believed that Pottenger's diet worked for weight loss because of the lecithin in the fatty meat. Lee said that lecithin was like a checkbook that would allow you to spend all the fat in your bank account. Of course, he was referring to the naturally occurring lecithin in fresh, unprocessed fats -- not the refined stuff that's used as a food additive.