Leak in wall, please advise and support MORE UPDATE

[bigteamug]

Great. In addition to all the other issues this house has, we now appear to have a plumbing leak in the wall causing problems. I don't know how long it has been there. We have a plumber coming in next Monday pm (of course, these things ALWAYS happen right before a major holiday) - that is the soonest we could get a reputable, affordable one. The leak, is of course, in the bathroom with our only shower/bath, and on the second floor. We've been in the house for 6 months, and I wish we had never laid eyes on it.

If you've been here, please tell me what all happened and how things were resolved, and how bad things were and expensive, and what happened to fix it.

I got an appt for a counselor thru the EAP program at hubby's work. I thought things would turn around with the house soon, and with all the things that happened this summer, I nearly had a nervous break down then. Anybody know any cursed house remedies?

[sunnysandiegan]

First off -->

We had a major flood back in May. The entire ground floor (main level) was ankle-deep in "clean" water. The supply line under the powder room sink busted with no warning. Insurance covered most aspects, but not all. The claim ended up being $30K with nearly all of being structural removal and replacement.

I can tell you that it is NOT a supply line. You would have a FLOOD, not a leak. So, it'll cost you less than $30K. Not much help, but at least it's something, right?

Meanwhile, where is the water stain and/or wetness? How big of an area?

Not even a week after our major flood, we found a leak in our living room. Our house is not level nor plumb, none really are long-term, so we just knew it was coming from one of the two upstairs bathrooms (right next to each other; only water sources on that level). We had just gotten the $7K "dry-out" bill from the flood and had recently paid an non-reimbursable $800 plumbers bill for the two supply lines and two valves under the powder room sink. I wasn't about to pay that type of stuff again so soon! I talked to MANY, MANY people in person and on the phone and online. I got up on a ladder and cut open the drywall where the staining was. No leaks were visible, but plenty of water pipes and lines were. DH came home from work. We checked a few other ideas (toilets, sinks, shower/tub) with one person upstairs running said item and the other person downstairs on the ladder with a flashlight. NO SIGN OF WATER! My dad, the ultimate handyman, was out of town, but came home at my request to help us out. We cut open the CEILING above the staining. Ran more diagnostic test ideas based upon the research I had done and got rained on in the living room! (Our floors were concrete at the time and the walls were missing and the little bit of furniture still there was up on blocks.) We laughed and were thrilled we figured it! We needed a $2 part from the hardware store and installed it in seconds. The gasket around the overflow pipe on the bathtub was deteriorated. Drywall is cheap and we already had so many missing walls, what is another 9 square feet of it??? Plumbers wanted $800-1200 to diagnose and fix a problem like this when I called three different places before cutting the wall open myself!

So, it could be anything.

I'm not an expert, but I have dealt with a whole lot of "water" and "gas" leaks this year. If you can give more info, I may be able to point you in a helpful direction...

Best wishes!

[buttercups.nest]

I just wanted to say I feel your pain! We are living in a house that I too wish we had never laid eyes on! We are slowly getting it to a place that we are somewhat happy but it is slow and costly!

I just wanted to share our bathroom story in case you have the same problem.

We moved in December 2007. We live in Southern Alberta so it was snowy and cold when we moved in. In the summer time (June/July) we noticed dust/dirt around our toilet. In the beginning I blamed my husband for using the toilet with his shoes on but a couple of days later there were teeny tiny ants crawling around the bolts of our toilet. GROSS!!! There were also flying ants. YUCK!!! I couldn't figure out why there were all on the pipes below the toilet (our ceiling in the basement is exposed so we could see them and kill them with spray but couldn't figure out why they were there).

So this happened again this summer and I noticed that this time that there were a lot of them no where near the toilet. There were some in the shower, and quite a few ended up on our window. Just a couple of weeks ago my husband discovered that our shower tap is movable.....CRAP!

When I was a teen we had the same problem...ants in our bathroom and dining room. My mom took off all the drywall...there were ant nests behind the drywall. The drywall gets wet, and the ants like the moisture. YUCK!

Good luck!

[ChristyMarie]

How big is the water mark? Is it still wet?

First, I would make sure all your caulk is ok. We once had a leak when the shower head dropped on the faucet and knocked it just enough to crack the caulk.

Does it leak with the shower and tub faucet or just one? If just the shower, chances are there's a crack in your caulk somewhere. If both....maybe the drain has a tiny crack somewhere - possibly at the joint. I also doubt it is major or you'd have a MAJOR flood.

Clean up/repair to the drywall, etc should be covered by insurance as it is an internal water leak. The actual repair will not be - that is considered routine maintenance.

Good luck - water can be such a PITA.

[bigteamug]

I'll check, but I doubt that insurance will cover it. With some water issues it can also be a debate whether to claim it or not, it can cause problems with other insurances/selling your house down the line. I really, really hope there is not any mold - I really don't think they cover that - and I don't have much hope on either of those scores.

There is a half-bath down below, with cabinetry on the ceiling above - the leak is in/around the cabinetry for the most part - well hidden. There is some small evidence of water damage on the wall next to it if you know where to look - small cracks and bulges on the paint at a joint (above tile trim, below wood railing half-way up the wall) and possibly bubbly paint under the toilet paper thing. But unless you know where to look, it really is not that evident. The only time I really see water is when the tub is used. DH is still working, and it taking really short, short showers. The rest of us are using the other bathroom sink as a washbasin. My sister and her hubby will be staying at a hotel, where we can clean up tonight. I plan on having a very long appt with the bathtub after the EAP appt tonight.

There appears to be some evidence in the basement - watery marks on a wrapped pipe (asbestos of course) that I'm guessing will now have to be removed.

My guesses are that it could be the tub gasket, or it could be the old drum trap that we apparently have. They used these instead of P-traps way back when, they are usually lead cans where the water comes in the bottom and goes out the top - and they are prone to dying. If is the bath gasket, it is a easy repair and a lot of clean up for the water issues. If it is the trap, it is a huge messy repair with lots of holes in walls and ceilings and floors and well, basically, you might as well remodel the bathroom because it's all apart anyways - not that we have any more money for that. Our emergency fund is looking slimmer than we'd like in the economy.

I'll probably be taking the wall next the bathroom apart today (inside the linen closet), or maybe I'll start with the drain thing from inside the bath. Yeah, start with the least amount of work....and then we'll go from there.

Thanks mamas, I will keep you posted.

[bigteamug]

I AM STEAMING.


We had the drain guys come out in, I think, September to check the bath drain and also clean out the sewer line. He took apart the bath drain, noted that it had the drum trap, which he can't use a snake on, and put the drain cover back on. There either was no bath gasket, or he removed and tossed it without replacing it. THERE IS NO GASKET ON THE BATH!!!!!!

Those guys do enough of that kind of work to know that something like that is needful, or at least THEY SHOULD. If something is an integral part of a system that one services, disassembles and reassembles, then they should know better than to put it back together without that part. drain guy.

Needless to say, I have a call into them and am waiting to hear back. They better make good on this one.

[sunnysandiegan]

Did you hear anything? What rotten timing right before a major holiday. At least your family is nearby at a hotel for showering.

[Jackies Ladybug]

oh you better believe i would be making them pay for the damage plus compensation!
let us know how it goes, i hope that guy isnt the one that comes back for his sake!

[bigteamug]

Ok, now I have egg on my face. I had a plumber with a good reputation come by today and he couldn't find the leak in the tub area. He cut a couple holes into the wall of our linen closet (hidden away, thank goodness...) and couldn't see any water when the tub was running/draining....so he thinks it is the drum trap. Oh, major, major crud. Not the gasket, most likely. At least the guy today didn't charge for the visit, but he's planning on having a lot of work from us in the future. Like just his part of the remodel being upwards of $2k.....

So I guess I get to call the drain guy tomorrow and be really apologetic. sigh. I am so frustrated by the whole house thing.

Since drum traps (what they used prior to a P-trap) are made of lead, they have to be removed, they aren't allowed to repair them...to get at all the relevant bits, they will end up cutting a lot of walls open. We don't have money or time for this right now. It is our only full bath - my last shower was at my parent's hotel on Saturday.

The plumber is saying with all the opening of walls, we might as well remodel and keep all the holes in the wall in one place....sigh.

I think I see a coupla brown spots on the basement ceiling.. I don't know anymore what to do. I guess it's a good thing I have another counseling appt on Thursday...sorry, I just needed to vent. There's a mom in my playschool group who cringes when I say the word "house"....so I don't talk about things there anymore.

House curse removal techniques? I'm only half-joking at this point...

[sunnysandiegan]

Have you talked to your insurance agent? They are unlikely to cover any costs to repair the leak itself, but they are more likely to cover costs associated with returning your house to "normal" once the leak is repaired.

& best wishes!

[sunnysandiegan]

Oh, and replacing drywall is not a $2k job if you do it yourself (as long as it is just the closet you mentioned). Drywall is cheap and so is the tape and mud. Getting the texture back on the wall to match the existing texture can be tricky, but you can skip that in a closet. Slap a coat of new drywall primer on the drywall and paint the whole closet. Google how to do it.

How old is your house? Is it even drywall? Or is it plaster? Plaster will require different techniques.

Is this tub/shower directly above your basement? Or is it up another level and you are seeing water damage from two stories up? Ugh. Finding the source of a water leak is not fun.

[bigteamug]

The plumber's part of the job for the 2K would be getting the drum trap out, replacing all the vent/stack bits that are also lead and tie into the trap, and hooking up all the new stuff. It probably also includes running new supply lines, as if you have the walls open on an 80 year old house, it is prudent to do stuff like that, esp when some idiot in 1987 didn't use a dielectric union between copper and iron pipe when they put a new water heater in. No drywall repair included.

Most of the walls are plaster. Our plaster is soft to start with, so water damage will most likely make it crumble into dust (I think they used a lot of lime in the mix).

The bath is on the second floor, stacked on top of the half-bath on the first (where we see minor evidence of water damage, leaking around and thru the cabinets on the ceiling/wall). And the walls on the upstairs are tiled half-way up in 1970's era tile. So it's sort of an all or nothing kinda thing.

The only other thing I can think of is the vent pipe leaking after a rain somehow. I don't get it - hubby was taking short, short showers, and we have an ultra-low flow showerhead, last one he took was Wed am before Thanksgiving, and then we used my parents' hotel - so zero water usage in the upstairs bath, and then we saw drips on SATURDAY night?!?!?

I think it rained at some point in that time frame, not sure....mystery leaks stink.

[Fiverdoe]

Here is an interesting perspective. Please just disregard if you think I am crazy.

We actually just did this bathroom remodel thing for the same reason. Leaky drain under the tub that could not be fixed. A year and a half ago I had a pipe in the wall get a hole and we had to rip out the plaster and patch the pipe. It happened to be in a non tiled area so we could do it.

Anyway, I agree with your plumber. Once you reach a point of having the work done - critical mass - so to speak. It is better and easier to just go with it and remodel. I know the costs can be prohibitive, but if you consider resale value you can rationalize it.

Anyway, the wierd part is with the 'plumbing' and water flow issues. When ever you get this kind of house issue it is really about energy in your life. You need to let go of something and 'clean out' something in order that your energy or chi can flow better. There is a clog in your life that needs addressing. It isn't about your bathroom, it is about you I know, sounds wierd but if you can do some personal work to clear out some old energy it will make the bathroom remodel easier and better and whenever you clean out the old, something new and fresher energy comes in.

[bigteamug]

I really, really hate this. It doesn't appear that the drum trap was leaking. There was a small leak under the sink from the p-trap there, but I just don't see that being the cause of the water either, as it wasn't used Wed-Sat either and is a small amount of water, and seems unlikely for that to get out of the cabinetry and all the way down in the amounts to be a problem. I looked around the big vent, doesn't look like there is a problem there. There is some water damage around the chimney vent, BUT that is aways away from where we see the water below. I haven't been up in the attic right after a rain - we need, need, need insulation, it is cold and dry right now and not likely to change soon (cold is like highs below freezing for the next week), but I'd love to know what the problem is before insulating. Hard to tell if the water stuff is old or not when there is no weather to demonstrate that.

I really, really hate this. Leak detection service is $380 dollars.

[Jackies Ladybug]

if you crawl up into the attic and hopefully you have exposed beams, you should be able to see if there is recent water damage or not.
if its your roof it should be a pretty easy fix.

also, with a pipe issue, especially a long standing one, sometimes areas come up wet at weird times because water will pool in the insulation and then all of a sudden shift and make a fresh wet spot in a ceiling or wall. so it might be that the p-trap has leaked for long enough to cause this.

i am so bummed that you are going through this, plumbing and water issues are the worst to deal with. i am so glad i am renting right now. so glad.