No vaccines, even if not breastfeeding?

[tessa_s212]

Okay.. So, my milk supply has been dwindling. DS is still gaining well, per the dr, but I'VE noticed a drop in my milk supply. He's 2.5 months old, and I'm only producing 1 1/2 oz in the evenings at best. In the mornings up until about 11, I can get 3-4 oz, but that is for ONLY two feedings. The rest of the day he acts like he's starving, cries.

I've ordered blessed thistle and alfalfa supplements to see if that helps...

BUT, if we were to have to start supplementing, and then ultimately feeding formula, how does that effect our decision to NOT vaccinate? In the books I read, it says "breast fed babies do not have as high a risk" to catch certain diseases. I've always been more confident about my baby's health because I breastfeed. If we have no choice to give him icky formula, how will that effect his health? Should I then re-consider a delayed/alternative vacc schedule? I do NOT want to vaccinate at all.. but without the healthy breastmilk, I'm not sure what to do if I lose my milk supply.

[Mama~Love]

I would do everything I could to keep breastfeeding for at least the first year, if not two. I would still not vax if I had to use formula. The risks are still too great than any supposed benefits of vaxes.

[Deborah]

I was born in 1950, the third of 5 children. My mother wasn't able to breastfeed the first two, managed three months with me, eleven months with my sister and seven months with my brother. This made her a very successful nursing mom, in those benighted days.

Anyway, my family has been opposed to vaccination for generations and none of us received any vaccines at all. All five are still alive and we survived measles, mumps, chickenpox and rubella (and I suspect polio, which is non-symptomatic in 995 out of every thousand). So even though bottle feeding is much inferior to breastmilk (sorry for your struggle!), it is possible to have a healthy child who grows up into a healthy adult despite a vaccine deficiency.

[Jadzia]

How do you know how many ounces you are producing? Are you pumping?

I find I can never pump much, but the baby usually always seems to get enough milk. Babies are much more efficient than a pump. As long as the baby is gaining weight and wetting diapers, I am sure you are producing enough and won't need to supplement.

[tessa_s212]

Originally Posted by Jadzia

How do you know how many ounces you are producing? Are you pumping?

I find I can never pump much, but the baby usually always seems to get enough milk. Babies are much more efficient than a pump. As long as the baby is gaining weight and wetting diapers, I am sure you are producing enough and won't need to supplement.

He is wetting enough diapers and gaining (thought not as much or as fast as the first month), for now.

DS REFUSES to nurse now. Every time I put him to the breast, he screams at me until I give him a bottle. He'll ONLY nurse in the morning, the rest of his feedings throughout the day, he will not nurse. He sleeps through the night, so I have been having to stay up until 12 or later to pump, and then I get up again at 5 am to pump. Pumping is my only option now, or else I'd starve him.

Pumping hurts, but I prefer it to nursing now because all he does is scream and get angry at the breast. And I'd never found a nursing position that was comfortable for the both of us. I was either hunching over, hurting my back, or if I tried to sit up right, he was too heavy to lift to bring to the breast.

Thanks for the support with the vaccines issue. I'm still going to try to breastfeed, but I'm not feeling optimistic that the pump will be able to increase my supply, as I've been pumping every 2 hours for 4 days now, and it hasn't yet helped. Maybe that will chance once I get the blessed thistle and alfalfa supplements.

[Mama~Love]

I would call a lactation consultant, LLL, or someone very knowledgeable about BFing. That does not sound normal. He might be sensitive to something in your diet, or poor latch, or something.

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

He is wetting enough diapers and gaining (thought not as much or as fast as the first month), for now.

DS REFUSES to nurse now. Every time I put him to the breast, he screams at me until I give him a bottle. He'll ONLY nurse in the morning, the rest of his feedings throughout the day, he will not nurse. He sleeps through the night, so I have been having to stay up until 12 or later to pump, and then I get up again at 5 am to pump. Pumping is my only option now, or else I'd starve him.

Pumping hurts, but I prefer it to nursing now because all he does is scream and get angry at the breast. And I'd never found a nursing position that was comfortable for the both of us. I was either hunching over, hurting my back, or if I tried to sit up right, he was too heavy to lift to bring to the breast.

Pumping will not empty the breast as well as your baby...so you're probably right that you will be unable to increase your supply with pumping alone.

Have you tried nursing while lying down? Co-sleeping may help him take in more milk from the breast during the night (he may not even wake fully to nurse if you're right there,) and increase your supply. If he takes in a couple of extra night feedings, he won't need as many feedings during the day.

Also, have you tried nursing him when he's very drowsy before a nap? In a dark, quiet room? He may be getting too stimulated to concentrate on nursing, and prefers the easy flow of the bottle (nursing is more work for a baby!)

I hope you can get breastfeeding to work. Formula's ok but your baby deserves the best!

Vaccine toxins present the same risk, breastfeeding or not.

[Marnica]

I agree with others...you should contact an LC immediately...many BF moms have problems in the beginning and LC's can help you so you may not have to resort to formula or pumping

as to the vax issue....no I would still not vax. It would have no bearing on my decision.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

was not able to BF DS1 past 4 months (because I was misinformed and uneducated), and he has not been vaxxed since then either. FWIW, he will never be vaxed either.

Look into your sons toungue being tied if you havent already. Or possible thrush on his end. something is getting in the way of his instinct to nurse. All babies have it. Some just need a little extra encouragement.

have you tried posting in the Breastfeeding forum? I wouldnt have been able to make it a year with DS2 without those ladies.

[just_lily]

Mama, I completely understand what you are going through! My DD rejected the breast and completely refused to nurse after I allowed a nurse to give her formula under duress while I was still in the hospital. She started freaking out as soon as I took my shirt off, would scream and arch her back. It was crazy, and very upsetting.

Of course I had all kinds of suggestions, but nothing worked. It wasn't about bad latch, or something in my diet, or any of those things. We had NO latch. She would flip out at the sight of my nipple and scream until she fell asleep instead of nursing. There really isn't much you can do at that point.

I pumped for her for a while, but I found I was spending the whole time, 20 minutes every two to three hours, dwelling on what a failure I was as a mother. It wasn't good. I finally decided that an emotionally healthy mother was more important for my baby than the small amount of milk I was pumping, and we switched to formula full-time. I still mourn the loss of our breastfeeding relationship, but it was the best decision I could have made at the time, for both of us.

And back to vax....

My kid hasn't had a single one. She is still the healthiest kid I know. My theory is that although breastmilk may help prevent disease, formula doesn't make vaccines any safer. There is no way I would vaccinate just because I couldn't BF.

Good luck Mama. I know how hard this is, and don't let anyone make you feel bad, no matter how all of this works out!

[ZoeyZoo]

I completely lost my supply at 3 weeks and could not turn it around. I had to use formula since dd lost an entire pound. I still chose not to vax her since I don't feel the risks outweigh the benefits even if FFing.

It took dd 18 months to get sick for the first time (and it was with the flu). I don't know anyone else her age that had never been sick for that long. I believe not vaxing and feeding her as well as I could with good quality foods is what helped her.

I know this is another topic completely but I highly recommend Babys Only for supplementing if you need to go that route. They have been a very good company to work with, I believe they have the best quality product for formula, they don't advertise intentially to babies under a year, and they are the only brand I found that does not line their cans with BPA.

[Deborah]

If you haven't already talked to a lactation consultant, do so. Someone with a lot of experience may be able to help you sort out if this is something that can be sorted out, or not, so you don't end up struggling for months and getting nowhere.

And don't worry about the vaccinations.

[mama2004]

This thread is getting a little OT, I think, but for the OP, my thoughts are with you mama! My first three (at least) months of breastfeeding were not much more than blood, sweat and tears, and not much weight gain for ds to show for it all.

Take this for what it's worth, but please do also consider an l.c. and visit the breastfeeding forum here. Please consider if at all possible stopping bottle feeding immediately--babies who aren't nursing well/effectively need all the practice they can get, and they can only get it at the breast. The one time I gave ds a bottle because I needed a break and I thought it was safe, he screamed for two days afterward every time I tried to breastfeed (really he did--I'm not demonizing bottle feeding, but if you have any sort of supply issue, or even if the bottle is just easier, you are walking into a huge tangle of difficulty)--the bottle delivered what he wanted/needed much more quickly and easily. You can continue to pump and supplement with either breastmilk or formula if need be while nursing. It is not entirely simple, but fairly easy (in the scheme of things) to come up with a SNS (supplemental nursing system), an l.c. will be able to help you, or feel free to p.m. me and I'll gladly share what I've learned. Please check out kellymom.com and drjacknewman.com for amazing information and support.

I struggled more than I thought was possible with breastfeeding and managed to come out the other side (ds nursed until just over 2.5 years old, although I don't think I was ever fully confident that he was getting everything he needed). If you are in need of support, please know that you can find it.

[MommytoR]

When my son was in the hospital still, and I was very uneducated about breastfeeding, I took the advice of a team of specialists who were treating my son and stopped breastfeeding. I still choose not to vaccinate. Breastfeeding makes for a healthier immune system, but I'm not going to put my baby's immune system at even more of a disadvantage by vaccinating him.

[stiss]

Is your baby going to be in daycare at any point? Breastmilk is a great protective factor, and I totally agree with the other posters that seeing a lactation consultant can make a difference. If you end up having to supplement, though, don't beat yourself up, because sometimes we do everything we can and it's still not enough (ask me how I know: pumping round the clock for months, using a Lactaid, taking Domperidone, blessed thistle, fenugreek, and eating all the galactagogue-type foods I could get my hands on still didn't allow me to exclusively breastfeed.)

Anyway, back to vaccinations - when I made my decision to delay vaccines and only selectively vaccinate (yes, I'm one of those terrible moms that desparkles my kid! The shame!), one of the reasons I felt comfortable with the selection and delay was because my child was not going to be in daycare with other kids, thus increasing his chances of getting sick. You have every right to make the decision you think is best for your child, but I think this is one factor you should also take into consideration, especially if they won't be ultimately breastfed.

[amnesiac]

I am re-opening the thread. I have removed several posts which were either not consistent with our guidelines or were responding to such posts.

Please remember that the focus of this discussion needs to remain focused on the vaccine issues. If you wish to further explore breastfeeding issues, please do so in our Breastfeeding forum or privately. Any further disruption of this vaccination discussion will result in removal of the thread.

Feel free to PM any questions or comments.

[ammiga]

I understand how you feel. If I had to stop breastfeeding my dd, I would have had a hard time feeling that dd was being well protected. But, if I couldn't breastfeed, I still would not vax. Vaccines aren't any safer or less toxic, regardless of breastfeeding status.

[freestylemama]

I would absolutely vaccinate if I wasn't nursing. Dr. Sears' Vaccine Book might be a good resource for you.

[engineer_mom]

Originally Posted by just_lily

My kid hasn't had a single one. She is still the healthiest kid I know. My theory is that although breastmilk may help prevent disease, formula doesn't make vaccines any safer. There is no way I would vaccinate just because I couldn't BF.

ditto
except that my daughter is in daycare and she gets sick a bunch. but no VPD.
GL!

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by ammiga

But, if I couldn't breastfeed, I still would not vax. Vaccines aren't any safer or less toxic, regardless of breastfeeding status.

I agree and would choose the same, and to add to that my reasoning would also be because all vaccines do no protect/immunize and only damage the immune system. A formula-fed baby won't have as robust an immune system as a breastfed baby but if the baby isn't vaccinated, at least his/her immune system won't be damaged/altered/skewed towards Th2 dominance/Th1 suppression via vaccines, thus the unvaccinated baby will have a healthier immune system than a vaccinated baby, and actually be more protected with a natural, balanced, undamaged immune system.