What can we do? / Why is the procedure a secret?

[heatherweh]

I have two questions:

What can we do to make a difference?

Why is circumcision not discussed in detail by most doctors or in most books?

I don't understand that at all. If I had known what the procedure entailed I would never have done it to my firstborn. I read TONS of books, I went to classes; circumcision was only mentioned very briefly ever, and then it was mostly just that it is a choice each parent has to make on their own- very noncommittal and mild. It seems that for any elective surgery the patient would be made fully aware of the procedure itself, the potential complications, further implications in life, and the healing process. In this procedure it was like all of it was just glossed over, no explanation, no details- how can that even be legal? Why aren't they showing the procedure as one of the videos expectant parents watch in class? I don't get why or how this can be shrouded in mystery.

[Fay]

Because there are serious moral problems with cosmetic, medically unnecessary surgery on a non-consenting infant without anesthesia, but the procedure brings in $$$.

[SlackerDad]

Excellent questions.

[BugMacGee]

I wish I knew. And it's funny, I have South Park on in the background and they are talking about circumcision right now. Cartman just said "I don't wanna be in your penis choppin' family anyway!"

I feel like the world has lost it's ability to see logic about this issue. And I really don't think it's all about money. And yet, I don't really know what it IS about.

My best guess is that parents really don't have any idea what circ actually entails. They send baby off to have it done (very few parents actually watch) and back baby comes with a pacifier in it's mouth and his little penis all gauzed up) Then they wonder "Why isn't he eating? He latched so well yesterday!" "Why is he so fussy?" Hmmmm.

They circ because that's what happens to boys. That's how their penises are "supposed to look". They just don't realize what it actually takes to make them that way. And the complications that can occur.

[isign]

I can only answer for me. I honestly did not know much about it. It was never discussed in any classes or books, and while I thought I was 100 % prepared, I somehow had missed this bit of info on the pros/cons. I only had my DH and mom (have 3 brothers) to talk to and a very short window to decide. I did not feel good sitting in the room waiting (for various other reasons) but did not know enough about the mama feeling to know that I should have trusted myself enough to say no.

I felt like such a bad mama after it was done, when we went back for a check the same day and DS was still bleeding, and started screaming. Reading some of the posts around here (not this one) just add to that guilt. The only thing that could have changed it would have been more education. I knew nothing about it, and wish that I had never put DS through that.

[SleeplessMommy]

We took a 6-week hospital-sponsored childbirth education class at a hospital in a high circ area. The pro-breastfeeding, anti-edidural, natural-childbirth-supporting childbirth educator said "mostly everyone does it." (Hospital had a high c-section rate, so the childbirth education was kind of irrelevant anyway for many of the Moms.) Even the breastfeeding class did not mention risks of circ and breastfeeding failure.

This educator seemed pretty pro-circ, but had she been vocally anti-circ it could have cost her job, I would expect. With the Dads mostly circed, older siblings circed, etc, there would be a lot of toes stepped on if the educator came out and said "there is no reason to do this anymore."

I am sure some of the nurses here will have input on how they communicate with patients and still keep their jobs.

[fruitful womb]

We're all in a great big "social experiment" right now and no one knows it yet.

[Night_Nurse]

Heatherweh and isign,
I'd like to recommend that you send letters to the childbirth educator at whichever hospital or facility you attended classes and/or write the OB that circed your son. I doubt an OB will change his approach on how he/she explains the circ procedure to new parents. But maybe the childbirth educator will re-evaluate the teaching methods used in class (perhaps recommend a video or pamphlets by nocirc or intact america) and maybe other parents will be given the educational info on circ they failed to give to you.

[PuppyFluffer]

My dh took the kids out so I could have some quiet time in the kitchen to prepare the turkey so I can't post right now but I have some things I want to say on this one.

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

I wish I knew. And it's funny, I have South Park on in the background and they are talking about circumcision right now. Cartman just said "I don't wanna be in your penis choppin' family anyway!"

I feel like the world has lost it's ability to see logic about this issue. And I really don't think it's all about money. And yet, I don't really know what it IS about.

My best guess is that parents really don't have any idea what circ actually entails. They send baby off to have it done (very few parents actually watch) and back baby comes with a pacifier in it's mouth and his little penis all gauzed up) Then they wonder "Why isn't he eating? He latched so well yesterday!" "Why is he so fussy?" Hmmmm.

They circ because that's what happens to boys. That's how their penises are "supposed to look". They just don't realize what it actually takes to make them that way. And the complications that can occur.

Yup, good post. I think some anti-circ activists really do overrate the money aspect.

What will be interesting is to see how things are going to go as the majority of boys born on the West Coast in recent years who are intact grow up and move around the country and have sons of their own. Even the regions that are for now still overwhelmingly circing are going to get a whiff of a new day dawning when that happens.

ETA: I feel like I should add that even aside from the pain it causes babies, the fussiness and latching problems, the interference with bonding, etc., that circumcision is bad bad news. Even if I were guaranteed to get the world's most "perfect" circ, with zero pain and zero risk of complications, I would not do it for a million, or a billion, dollars.

[number572]

Three of my sisters circ'd. Four boys in total. They all chat about it openly at family gatherings (not at the table or anything lol), along with the other details of their (typical mainstream hospital) births. I agree that its simply a matter of people having knowledge about circ. The way they speak, it is necessary in their minds, like they are saving their sons from future problems, and its what good parents do. Its all pretty disturbing to overhear. I can't say much b'c I haven't had a son yet, so, you know. I tried to talk to one of them before their first son was born and my sis wouldn't really talk to me for about 2 yrs afterward. I don't think that was too effective, she still circ'd and then circ'd her 2nd son.

* sidenote - one of my sis's just went vegan (mostly organic). Its awesome! She has a metabolism that can eat burger/taco/etc drive thru every other day, so she would. She had a typical SAD non organic diet. Brushed off any nutritional speak. Laughed for the past 15+ yrs at my veg (organic) food choices and called them "pretentious & elitist" & they would actually POKE my food! haha. Now, after reading and understanding a better way of growing and eating and feeding her family, she's a full blown vegan!!

I think circ could/will follow that same pattern in North America as well. Keep putting the info out there in a non-critical non-confrontational way & people will take a look and hopefully rethink circ.

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by number572

Three of my sisters circ'd. Four boys in total. They all chat about it openly at family gatherings (not at the table or anything lol), along with the other details of their (typical mainstream hospital) births. I agree that its simply a matter of people having knowledge about circ. The way they speak, it is necessary in their minds, like they are saving their sons from future problems, and its what good parents do. Its all pretty disturbing to overhear. I can't say much b'c I haven't had a son yet, so, you know.

I don't agree with you there.

[number572]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

I don't agree with you there.

yeah, me either... but the general idea is that unless you have a kid, specifically a boy, AND have gone thru that "decision-making", then you don't have any knowledge about circ. i don't get it either, but the attitude is definitely loud & clear in many circumstances.

[BugMacGee]

I don't know that the procedure is necessarily a secret. In our hospital, parents are welcome to watch. Most choose not to, and this says a lot to me. Like they suspect it's awful and don't want to watch something painful done to their son, but they want it done anyway.

Some parents do watch. We have a policy that they have to sit down because we've had fathers pass out. Again, this says a lot.


I have to be careful about what I say at work. It's like the procedure is protected. I am fortunate that many of the nurses and doctors I work with are vocally anti circ. Doesn't matter. It's not going away any time soon


And BTW, I have 2 little girls! IF they'd been born boys, my ex would've wanted to have them circ'ed because uncirc'ed guys "get made fun of" *eyeroll*

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by number572

yeah, me either... but the general idea is that unless you have a kid, specifically a boy, AND have gone thru that "decision-making", then you don't have any knowledge about circ. i don't get it either, but the attitude is definitely loud & clear in many circumstances.

I see, you were sort of saying that sarcastically. I would assume someone like me (intact man) would be an exception to this "rule"?

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by heatherweh

I have two questions:

What can we do to make a difference?

Why is circumcision not discussed in detail by most doctors or in most books?

I don't understand that at all. If I had known what the procedure entailed I would never have done it to my firstborn. I read TONS of books, I went to classes; circumcision was only mentioned very briefly ever, and then it was mostly just that it is a choice each parent has to make on their own- very noncommittal and mild. It seems that for any elective surgery the patient would be made fully aware of the procedure itself, the potential complications, further implications in life, and the healing process. In this procedure it was like all of it was just glossed over, no explanation, no details- how can that even be legal? Why aren't they showing the procedure as one of the videos expectant parents watch in class? I don't get why or how this can be shrouded in mystery.

I have wondered this myself. Why is it that with other surgeries you get a detailed description of the risks, benefits, and alternatives, and somehow with circ, it gets a free social pass, and nobody questions it.

I'm so sorry for your experience with your DS and for your doctors not properly informing you.

I have a friend who said that with her 3 sons, they never even told her that she had a choice not to circ. The procedure was very hard on her and them (hospital did without anesthesia) and with a couple of her sons, there were adhesion problems afterwards. Had she been informed at the VERY LEAST that the procedure was optional and not essential to good health, I suspect that she may have opted out.

Have you written a letter to your doctor expressing your regret that you were not properly informed? Just that alone may go a long way towards helping doctors to realize that they need to give parents accurate information.

In all honesty, though, I think that the reason why they don't properly inform parents and make them aware of all the drawbacks to the procedure is that the circ rate would drop to virtually zero if they did!

After my son was born (homebirth), at his newborn exam I mentioned to the midwife that we weren't circ'ing. She said, "Good!" and proceeded to tell me how she regretted having her DS circ'ed and that she did it because she was not properly informed.

She watched the procedure and said that she nearly fainted. So I suspect that the circ rate would really plummet if mothers had to watch the circs!

[lurve]

it's all about education really and people talking about the subject and opening their eyes. i mean here i was in my thirties, a lawyer, and i had no idea about midwives! but i saw all my friends getting c/sections and using forumula so i started researching (and found mothering!). next thing you know i am having a homebirth, cloth diapering, babywearing. as i am sitting here pregnant with my second child and not knowing the sex, i have also done research on circ. if my first child had been a boy, i would have circumsized because i just didn't know (because in my family it is part of the religion). but as i have opened my eyes to how wonderful and intelligent the human body is, i realize that we just aren't born with something that needs to be taken off right away!

and maybe that is part of the problem-westner medicine preaches to us that our bodies keep failing us. that they don't know how to get it right. it does not teach us to eat right, to move, etc. and until that changes, we have no problems seeing something on ourselves as "wrong."

[SlackerDad]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

I have a friend who said that with her 3 sons, they never even told her that she had a choice not to circ.

I can totally believe that, but then it's hard to believe I can so easily believe it. What kind of society would it be if genital surgery were mandatory on all boys?

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

In all honesty, though, I think that the reason why they don't properly inform parents and make them aware of all the drawbacks to the procedure is that the circ rate would drop to virtually zero if they did!

Don't be so sure. The stuff we talk about relating to circed fathers (that they have a strong psychological need to feel that there is nothing wrong with their penises, that no harm was done to them) would still be there even if all that information were provided.

[knucklehead]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

I can totally believe that, but then it's hard to believe I can so easily believe it. What kind of society would it be if genital surgery were mandatory on all boys?



Don't be so sure. The stuff we talk about relating to circed fathers (that they have a strong psychological need to feel that there is nothing wrong with their penises, that no harm was done to them) would still be there even if all that information were provided.

I agree with this totally. I work with a woman who had a boy 5 months ago. I talked with her extensively about circ and what it involved. I gave her numerous articles many with graphic photos and answered all her questions. I educated her on how easy intact boys were to care for and how so many circs are done without anesthesia. She was INFORMED. The first time I spoke with her after her son was born I learned that she had him circ'd. I asked her "whyyyyy!?" and she evaded the question. (I believe she caved to her husband.) She did sound wistful though and informed me that she couldn't go with him to watch because she couldn't stand to see it done to him. Needless to say I have lost all respect for her and I am now cordial but cool with her at work. She KNEW EXACTLY what was happening to her infant and did nothing to stop it.

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by SlackerDad

I can totally believe that, but then it's hard to believe I can so easily believe it. What kind of society would it be if genital surgery were mandatory on all boys?



Don't be so sure. The stuff we talk about relating to circed fathers (that they have a strong psychological need to feel that there is nothing wrong with their penises, that no harm was done to them) would still be there even if all that information were provided.

To the first part of the above quoted, yes, it's irrational to think that genital surgery would be mandatory, but circ in and of itself is irrational.

To the second part, yes I agree. Circ has a very strong psychological component. Makes me want to go give my husband a hug of appreciation for leaving our son intact, despite the fact that he (along with approximately 90% of the males in his generation and area) wasn't spared it himself.