3 yr old becoming more defiant -- how to respond?

[sarahr]

First, I know my dd's actions are completely age-appropriate -- but that doesn't make them okay or easy to deal with.

Up to now, we've had no problems with redirect/distract/natural consequences. Occassionally, we'll do "time-ins," where if she's getting too revved up and out of control, I'll have her sit on my lap for a few moments.

As she's getting older and more "defiant" I'm having a harder time knowing how to respond. For example, the other day she went into the fridge to get a glass of milk. That's fine, I encourage her to satisfy her needs herself to the best of her ability. But then she decided she didn't want to drink the milk -- she wanted to pour the cup upside down and deliberately spill the milk.

My response was to have her help clean it up and I wouldn't give her any more milk. But she loves being able to do this, so if anything, this was more encouragement to do it again. Mainstream advice would be a time-out, but I'm not comfortable with that. What are some other options?

[Wild Lupine]

DD is 37 months and I'm noticing the same thing- increased defiance as though she's intentionally testing how far she can go or what response she'll get. I haven't really figured it out, but a few things that have helped so far are first, not to respond in kind. If she does something I just asked her not to do, I try not to get into a power trip over it. If she poured the milk all over the floor I might say, 'oh my goodness, the milk just jumped right out of the refrigerator and poured itself all over the floor' in a crazy, silly tone of voice. 'what will we do, what will we do, help me DD, what will we do?' This gets DD to laugh and we can clean it up then. When the moment has passed I explain the natural consequences of having less milk- water to drink for the day instead of milk, for example...

But, in the long run I think addressing this developmental stage outside the incidents is the best response. Not sure if this is true of your DD, but mine seems to alternate between wanting to be a baby and wanting more independence. One minute she'll ask to be in the sling, the next to make her own lunch. For my DD I think her increased defiance is both a cry for more power and fear about growing up. I'm just beginning to start thinking about how to give her more responsibility and I'm not yet sure what that will look like.

I'll be watching this thread for experienced Mamas advice!

[sarahr]

Originally Posted by onemomentatatime

But, in the long run I think addressing this developmental stage outside the incidents is the best response. Not sure if this is true of your DD, but mine seems to alternate between wanting to be a baby and wanting more independence. One minute she'll ask to be in the sling, the next to make her own lunch. For my DD I think her increased defiance is both a cry for more power and fear about growing up. I'm just beginning to start thinking about how to give her more responsibility and I'm not yet sure what that will look like.

Yes! This describes my DD exactly. She'll even announce that she's a "little baby." I'm happy both to "baby" her when she wants (mostly that means wrapping her tightly in a blanket and holding her in my lap) and letting her have the independence she wants (letting her hold a butter knife and spread the almond butter for her sandwich). But I don't know how to handle the deliberate testing of limits.

[flower01]

My DD is 2 1/2 and she is just like this. I hope other mamas have some good ideas.

[Kikelet]

Just a thought.. Maybe you can get her a bucket of some sort and fill it with water and cups of different sizes. You could sit her in a dry bath tub with a few hand towels and let her spill the water to her heart's content, then let her use the towel to "clean it up". Maybe you could also add a tiny bit of food coloring to the water, not enough to stain her skin or anything, but just so it looks interesting. Even let her pick the color. Then while she's playing you can explain that the kitchen is for eating and drinking, not spilling, etc etc and the only place we can spill on purpose is in the bath tub.

If she enjoys cleaning up spilled milk or other things, don't let her help you. Let the bath tub be a place where she can pretend to clean up. Let her clean up the real accidents but don't play her game when she does it intentionally.

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

My three year old is much more interested in pushing limits, being deliberately defiant, and throwing tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants than he was, say, four or five months ago.

I have no advice, just commiseration.

[sarahr]

Originally Posted by Kikelet

If she enjoys cleaning up spilled milk or other things, don't let her help you. Let the bath tub be a place where she can pretend to clean up. Let her clean up the real accidents but don't play her game when she does it intentionally.

So what should my reaction be when she spills (or does something else destructive) on purpose?

Today's incident: she was banging her cup on the table. I said, "Please don't do that." She banged again. I looked at her. She said, "If I bang again, will you take it away?" I said yes. She banged again. I took it away. She fell to the floor crying and begging for it back. She knew EXACTLY what the consequence was -- she even suggested it -- yet still acted upset.

[atljenny47]

Originally Posted by sarahr

So what should my reaction be when she spills (or does something else destructive) on purpose?

Today's incident: she was banging her cup on the table. I said, "Please don't do that." She banged again. I looked at her. She said, "If I bang again, will you take it away?" I said yes. She banged again. I took it away. She fell to the floor crying and begging for it back. She knew EXACTLY what the consequence was -- she even suggested it -- yet still acted upset.

It has been ages sinces I've been on mothering.com, and I came back today to look for advice on exactly what you are describing. My DS turned 3 in October and has recently started in on activities exactly like the one you have described. Lately, I have seen myself getting angry and yelling and this is so not what I have done for the first 3 years of his life and so not what I want to get into a habit of doing. I've been doing lots of good reading on the site today, but welcome any other advice.

Other than that, I wanted you to know you are not alone! Keep striving for the positive work, Mama!

[stiss]

We're dealing with this kind of stuff as well. I just hold my ground - I try to keep a close eye on him when there's a good chance he'll misbehave (i.e. I keep track of the triggers - spilling cups is one, drawing on anything that's not paper is another, for instance.) I always remind him of what's expected ("mommy wants you to drink this properly, okay? If you don't, I'm going to take it away") and then I watch him. If I can catch him before he does it, he gets a warning. If he still misbehaves, I follow through, and usually make a comment about how sad I am about what happened (NOT sad/mad at him - just something like "Oh no. Look at the mess. Now I have to take the cup away." When he cries, we talk about it ("you're sad that mommy took away the milk. You want your milk! Mommy said that you had to drink nicely, though, and you didn't, so now it's gone."

I try to distract at that point. If he continues to ask for his milk/pens/whatever, I'll wait a few minutes and then ask him if he'd like them again. When he says yes, I re-iterate the sitch (Okay, but are you going to drink it properly? If you spill it, Mommy's going to take it away, okay?") Lather, rinse, repeat. Oh...the other thing I do is that I make a big deal about it when he's doing it right ("oooh, look at how nicely you're drinking! Daddy, look at how nicely DS is drinking his milk!") and I'll offer him a slighly bigger glass (which he loves), or some other 'reward' of increased responsibility, hee hee.

It's their job to test limits and explore cause/effect. I feel bad when he cries if something gets taken away, but thems the breaks. I'm always there to commiserate with him (though sometimes I'm counting to ten in my head.) I imagine the "gentle" in GD will become harder when it's my favourite book he's destroyed, or the carpet he's painted on, heh heh...

Good luck. Hopefully things will get easier soon!

[mamazee]

I'm a non-punitive mom, so I'll give you my take on what I'd do, and what I did when my dd was in that stage.

Deliberate spilling: I'd put her milk in a spill-proof sippy for a while and tell her where she can play with spilling stuff. She can do that in the sink with water, in the bathtub, etc. You say she likes to clean, give her the job of cleaning the kitchen floor each day with a rag and a spray bottle of water or of weak safe cleaning fluid. That might be enough messy/watery work for her to get her a bit over the desire to experiment with water. I think this is half wanting to upset you and get you into a power struggle, and half experimenting with liquids, so it's a two-part solution.

Banging the cup on the table. I wouldn't tell her I'd take it away if she did it again. I'd just take it away the first place, and say "That's making a loud noise. Do you want something softer to hit against the table?" and maybe hand her something else. When you warn, it comes off to kids as a threat and like dares them to do it. Kids can't resist dares. I'd just pass that step and take it away if you know you're going to anyway. If you do it in the first place, you won't be as upset, and therefore it won't be the big power struggle she's after.

In general, I'd try to handle the problem before it gets to the point of a power struggle. 3-year-olds LOVE power struggles and spend all day trying to find them. It's something to do with their development, desire for independence, sense of self, etc. I'd avoid power struggles when possible and cut them off at the first available opportunity when they come up and you're able. Also, if something isn't a big deal, I'd let it go instead of turning it into a power struggle, although I would have stopped both your scenarios too so I'm not saying you're turning things into power struggles that don't have to be. I just know it's easy to follow a 3-year-old into them. And oddly tempting. 3-year-olds are willing to invest a huge amount of energy and time into these power struggles, and you'll spend all day on them if she gets you going.

[crwilson]

Mamazee-Thank you for that advice. I was online today because I'm having the exact same issues as the OP. DD seems to adore power struggles right now, and I'm not sure how to avoid them. Your advice is sound, and it gives me some concrete things to try. I know why she's acting the way that she's acting, I just have no idea how to respond. Right now, I feel like nothing works.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by mamazee

I'm a non-punitive mom, so I'll give you my take on what I'd do, and what I did when my dd was in that stage.

Deliberate spilling: I'd put her milk in a spill-proof sippy for a while and tell her where she can play with spilling stuff. She can do that in the sink with water, in the bathtub, etc. You say she likes to clean, give her the job of cleaning the kitchen floor each day with a rag and a spray bottle of water or of weak safe cleaning fluid. That might be enough messy/watery work for her to get her a bit over the desire to experiment with water. I think this is half wanting to upset you and get you into a power struggle, and half experimenting with liquids, so it's a two-part solution.

Banging the cup on the table. I wouldn't tell her I'd take it away if she did it again. I'd just take it away the first place, and say "That's making a loud noise. Do you want something softer to hit against the table?" and maybe hand her something else. When you warn, it comes off to kids as a threat and like dares them to do it. Kids can't resist dares. I'd just pass that step and take it away if you know you're going to anyway. If you do it in the first place, you won't be as upset, and therefore it won't be the big power struggle she's after.

In general, I'd try to handle the problem before it gets to the point of a power struggle. 3-year-olds LOVE power struggles and spend all day trying to find them. It's something to do with their development, desire for independence, sense of self, etc. I'd avoid power struggles when possible and cut them off at the first available opportunity when they come up and you're able. Also, if something isn't a big deal, I'd let it go instead of turning it into a power struggle, although I would have stopped both your scenarios too so I'm not saying you're turning things into power struggles that don't have to be. I just know it's easy to follow a 3-year-old into them. And oddly tempting. 3-year-olds are willing to invest a huge amount of energy and time into these power struggles, and you'll spend all day on them if she gets you going.

Good advice!

[Moonchild77]

upping, cause I LOVE the things mamazee said, My ds1 is EXACTLY doing all these things atm, he is almost 4.

Thankyou, I am going to do those things tomorrow!

[Moonchild77]

Okay, hijacking this post

Mama zee and others, I do have a q: when not heading into the power struggle is best (I get that ;-) ) how to handle this":

Me: you may hang up your coat after entering the house and put your shoes away. ( okay, I said: can you/ or : do put....)
ds1 : no, mama do it (speech delayed, he means: no mama, you can/may do it)
me: no, it is your coat.....
POWER STRUGGLE - me getting upset, ds1 is already gone (mentally anyway, he acts like a 15 y old who thinks his mum is OLD..... )

If I put the coat on the hanger, then he will not see the need to do so himself, will he?
But I do NOT like the coats dropped somewhere....

Any ideas?

(like wise sceanrio (NAK, sorry!) :
me: your babybrohter is sleeping (in the wrap on me) please be a bit more quiet
ds1: "louder playing, on purpose".
me: do not do that
ds1: more louder
babybrohter wakes up (no prob, he is okay ALWAYS bu tI do have a kid who will be more tired then I need in 2 hours time......IYKNWIM....)
me: now see what you have done! (I get too angry...)
ds1: SORRY - sigh - plays on....

[mamazee]

For the first, I'd get out the hangar and do it with him. "Okay, let's hang up your coat." And do it with him and hang it up, creating a habit. He's only 3, so he might not do it by himself for a while, but get him in the habit anyway.

For the waking the baby up, the first thing is to figure out his motivation. Is he jealous of the baby snuggled with you? Is he wanting the baby up because the baby is fun? Is he upset that you seem to him to care more about the baby's sleep than his play? Do you know? If you ask him will he be able to communicate what he's thinking? I'd try to work out a solution based on what his motivation is. If he's jealous of the baby snuggling with you, maybe he can snuggle in some way at the same time for a bit. If he thinks the baby is fun when awake, maybe you can try to get him to understand that the baby is even more fun when well rested. If he thinks you care more about the baby, try to find some fun quiet stuff for him to do and make a fuss about how much fun he can have doing it while the baby is asleep. But trying to stop the behavior without figuring out just what the issue behind it is seems futile. The problem will just pop up elsewhere if his need, whatever it is, isn't fulfilled.

[Moonchild77]

thanks, that post was just what I needed, I was stuck in trying to stop the behaviour (

He is delayed with speech, but heis trying, so I could get him to make it clear what he wants, I think.

I do think it is, the not playing with him, problem is, ds2 sleeps a lot in the babycarrier so playing with ds1 is difficult then.

Should try harder to put ds2 down.

thankyou, 3 is YOUNG, I have to know this more!

[nina_yyc]

subbing

[KatWozBlue]

My 3 year old dd is the same, uncooperative, always trying to get her way, throws herself on the floor if she gets upset and sometimes I just want to put a needle in my eye :-).

What we try to do is "create situations where she can be successfull". We know at this point that she is very emotional, likes to push the boundaries, so we try to stop that train from going down the track in the first place. It doesn't always work, but it has helped my sanity and has helped her learn to control her emotions a bit better.

For example, she spills her milk A LOT on purpose, so now we are back in sippy cups with lids, she helps me pour the milk and then helps me put the lid on and sticks the straw in, she gets excited and doesn't fuss about the fact that she no longer has a big girl cup. In a few weeks we'll try again and see if she can handle the big girl cup.

In getting dressed, she wants to pick out her own clothes but gets frustrated doing it, so I pick her clothes for her and lay them on a chair in the living room the night before, then I say in my sing song voice "what does dd get to wear today? go see and bring it to me" so she runs and gets the clothes and I make a big deal and we get dressed.

With the hair, there is really no option, we do not leave the house with messy hair and teeth unbrushed or dirty hands. So we have a stool in the bathroom and she gets to watch me do her hair and we discuss what color bow she wants or what barettes she likes and I use the detangler spray (with my own version of mix) and I make it warm and she giggles when I spray. She now runs to the bathroom to get her hair done. I do believe that certain rules are non negotiable, and the kids need to understand that sometimes they have to do things because I said so :-).

I also always get down to her level during the tantrum and tell her that I can't understand her when she's screaming, that she has to use her big girl words and then I walk away. A couple of days ago she started to have a fit and I reminded her about her big girl words and she actually took a deep breath and got it together on her own and asked me for some milk. I was so proud and we put on dance music and celebrated her "big girl words".

Hang in there, remember, it shows what a great parent you are that your child is learning to push the boundaries, think about how much they will learn during this process about themselves, it is really great that you are there to be their greatest teacher. (even if it doesn't feel that way)

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe

My three year old is much more interested in pushing limits, being deliberately defiant, and throwing tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants than he was, say, four or five months ago.

I have no advice, just commiseration.

This is Tyr too! He turned 3 last month and he is so pushing our buttons. In many ways he is quite advanced which sometimes gives the illusion of being older than he is. Hubby gets so angry (another issue completely) with him because he expects more mature responses. It is frustrating because on one hand I am dealing with a 3y/o who is deliberatly pushing the limits waaaay past where he should and on the other I have to deal with a husband who has some anger issues and who reactions get waaaay out of control imo. Oh I will be so happy when this phase is past and I can get my happy little family back.

[jenkathryn]

Originally Posted by Moonchild77

thanks, that post was just what I needed, I was stuck in trying to stop the behaviour (

He is delayed with speech, but heis trying, so I could get him to make it clear what he wants, I think.

I do think it is, the not playing with him, problem is, ds2 sleeps a lot in the babycarrier so playing with ds1 is difficult then.

Should try harder to put ds2 down.

thankyou, 3 is YOUNG, I have to know this more!

I'm right there with you. We have a hush hour in pm and we all get in the lazyboy together (7m old naps in my arms and my just turned 3 year old sits with us too). It seems to help. I struggle w/ getting 7m old to nap independently too.

This thread is helpul. Thanks!