"cuz Ive seen the studies" - Page 3

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

We all know that the schools are terribly broken - even when the most dedicated teacher is in the classroom trying her/his hardest. We know the budgets have been ridiculously slashed and crime in schools is way up.

that is an absolutely ridiculous sweeping statement that is not true in probably 95% of schools.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by sg784

....to show how far behind hs'd kids are...." -friend who is on her way to becoming a public school teacher....this was the end of her statement that started with "i worry bout your kids,"

how to even respond?

Why is she worried about "your" kids? Just curious. If she were a true friend then I'd think she would back you up and trust what you are doing for your own children. Teacher or not, she can't tell you how to raise your own children and she can't possibly know what's right for them as much as you do. She believes in a public school and you believe in HS'ing your children. So what. You can be different in your choices of education for your children. A lot of people are.

[Treasuremapper]

I would be way too busy to engage with anyone who makes remarks like that. Icky!

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

In all fairness, those programs aren't only populated with hsed kids. My girls have been in and out of school depending on what is going on that year. Dd#1 was also attending a university gifted kid program when she was 9 and took the SAT shortly after her 10th bd. She was in ps at the time. Of course, it wasn't a matter of just dropping her off each day and expecting them to make it work. There was a lot of meeting with the schools and figuring out how to make this work at least somewhat well for her and me going in to pull her out in the morning and teach her myself once/week.

I have a close friend whose 3rd grade DD is reading at middle school level and beyond and is very smart in math and every subject there is, but she has no friends. None of the kids like her and the girls in her class poke fun at her and bully her daily. She hates school for that reason but her mother continues to send her and doesn't want to HS. Is that a good situation for a child? No. But I don't say anything derogatory because I feel she knows what will be best for her own child, not me (even though, if it were me, I'd pull her out and HS her ).

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

that is an absolutely ridiculous sweeping statement that is not true in probably 95% of schools.

Actual data would prove you wrong. And actual data would also show that budget slashing isn't really a problem because private schools often fare better with lower costs (and no requirement for licensed teachers nor their unions).

But I agree that the way that we deliver education today renders it very difficult even for a teacher that is trying very hard. In most schools. Part of that is how we educate (or don't) teachers and teaching programs.

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

I have found a lot of misplaced contempt for homeschoolers - not all teachers feel that way but the ones who do are most vocal. Why I wonder?

Insecurity. The teaching profession is plentiful with people who are so insecure that I often wonder if they're working with children because they CAN'T work with adults. Way too many of these in education. For example: I had to actually leave where I was sitting (waiting for my son to be done with OT) Friday because I could NOT stand another minute of this 4th grade teacher criticizing a student publicly (in front of the entire class in the hallway)... and ending it with "This isn't a great way to start in a new school". This woman criticizes her students REGULARLY during this hallway stop for drinks and bathroom, but this time it went on for several minutes and when I heard it was a NEW student?!? OMG... I actually went into the office to tell the secretary why I was leaving and where the OT therapist should take my son when he was done. She said "You can't teach an old dog new tricks". I told her "No, but you can certainly build a file to have them fired."

Oddly, those who are secure with themselves and confident in their skills don't usually bash homeschooling. I've seen them occasionally question a parent that outwardly looks like a space cadet--but not in a "you shouldn't do it way"... more of a "if you need help with this resource or that" way. Unfortunately I've met fewer of them than the alternative. And MOST of the alternate route teachers I've met don't bash it. The only thing I can think of that is that they must not worried about their future employment given that they have experience in another field to attempt to return to.

[Madame Pomfrey]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

that is an absolutely ridiculous sweeping statement that is not true in probably 95% of schools.

If your state is better off, I congratulate you. Oklahoma is ranked 40th in the nation (2007 figures). Even in our small town we have had recent gun violence in the public high school - knives and bullying are the more regular problems.

Still, the fact is that internationally even high-ranking states in the US are behind other industrialized nations on math and science. WAY behind.

Having attended several teaching conferences over the past year and a half where ALL that was discussed was our plummeting science and math skills, I still stand by my statement. If your state's schools are not broken and they do not have crime problems, then they are the exception.

I know there are some really dedicated teachers out there who can make a difference in their classrooms, that's not the issue here; I know there are some administrators who are really empowering their teachers; but the main problems facing public education are society-wide and they will not likely be fixed overall until our society deals with our many ills affecting young children.

Warm regards,

Lucie

[Madame Pomfrey]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

Actual data would prove you wrong. And actual data would also show that budget slashing isn't really a problem because private schools often fare better with lower costs (and no requirement for licensed teachers nor their unions).

I really think private and public schools are apples and oranges - you can't compare them when talking education reform because private schools are shielded - at least partially - from many of the problems facing the public schools.

The biggest difference that was pointed out to me by a high school English teacher this year was that private schools can choose who they take in and keep. He has one class this year that has 7 special needs kids in it - each with a different special need. As a result, the entire class has been slowed down. In a private school, they would not take 7 special needs kids in one class and, you're right, he would be paid substantially less.

We also have to keep in mind that a larger and larger portion of the public school budgets goes to security systems, guards, and technology like SmartBoards. Our high school achieves satisfactory Algebra scores from only 20% of its freshmen, yet every classroom supposedly has a SmartBoard. Are they helping?

It's a big big issue and I certainly don't claim to be a huge expert. Again I'm glad if budgets are not an issue in some places - they are here even with a lottery to help support them.

And I totally agree with the the poster who said that when asked why you homeschool just to stick with the positive. We DO homeschool because we are passionate about education and enjoy being with our children, sharing the experience...but I will stick up for homeschooling when it is put down.

Have a great day,

Lucie
off to teach 9th grade WW2 this morning
and 4th grade Lewis & Clark this afternoon

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

I really think private and public schools are apples and oranges - you can't compare them when talking education reform because private schools are shielded - at least partially - from many of the problems facing the public schools.

And I just have to jump in and point out that the irony of this is that the public schools are shielded from some of the problems you can encounter in private ones - because there are laws and procedures that kick in to monitor certain problems that private ones can ignore. I attended both private and public when I was growing up, and my son attended two different private ones through 1st grade. The public ones were the healthiest ones in my own experience, and when I was looking all over the county for a good school for my son's 2nd (after running into severe dysfunction in both private ones we'd tried), I was astonished to find that the healthiest environment would have been our local public school. We ended up homeschooling instead, but we definitely would have chosen that little public school if we'd gone with a school, even though it had its own minor problems. But that's not at all the situation everywhere - it just happened to be the way it was in our area. You just never know... Lillian

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

If your state is better off, I congratulate you. Oklahoma is ranked 40th in the nation (2007 figures). Even in our small town we have had recent gun violence in the public high school - knives and bullying are the more regular problems.

Still, the fact is that internationally even high-ranking states in the US are behind other industrialized nations on math and science. WAY behind.

Having attended several teaching conferences over the past year and a half where ALL that was discussed was our plummeting science and math skills, I still stand by my statement. If your state's schools are not broken and they do not have crime problems, then they are the exception.

I know there are some really dedicated teachers out there who can make a difference in their classrooms, that's not the issue here; I know there are some administrators who are really empowering their teachers; but the main problems facing public education are society-wide and they will not likely be fixed overall until our society deals with our many ills affecting young children.

Warm regards,

Lucie

I would like to see records and statistics that say that the great majority of US schools are facing terrible violence and crime in the classrooms. And I am not talking about bullying, because I don't care WHERE in the world you are, or WHERE in TIME you are, bullying is, has, and forever will be a problem until we become autobots.

How do you suggest that our society deals with the many 'ills' affecting young children, and please, explain what those ills are.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

I would like to see records and statistics that say that the great majority of US schools are facing terrible violence and crime in the classrooms. And I am not talking about bullying, because I don't care WHERE in the world you are, or WHERE in TIME you are, bullying is, has, and forever will be a problem until we become autobots.

How do you suggest that our society deals with the many 'ills' affecting young children, and please, explain what those ills are.

I don't have time to look at it right now - but I just found this resource that might help settle some of the question:
Indicators of School Crime and Safety, from the U.S. Department of Education Institute of Education Sciences. - Lillian

[mommy2maya]

[QUOTE]In 2007, 4 percent of students ages 12–18 reported being victimized at school during the previous 6 months: 3 percent reported theft,4 and 2 percent reported violent victimization5 (Indicator 3). Less than half of a percent of students reported serious violent victimization.6/QUOTE]

I'd hardly call those stats horrifying or overwhelmingly the majority of all schools in the US.

Even this stat, of Urban schools being more so than suburban or rural, isn't so overwhelmingly shocking that it would make me think that most schools are terrible dangerous places that no learning is taking place

In the 2003–04 school year, a greater percentage of teachers in city schools reported being threatened with injury or physically attacked than teachers in suburban, town, or rural schools (Indicator 5). In city schools, 10 percent of teachers were threatened with injury by students, compared to 6 percent of teachers in suburban schools, 5 percent of teachers in town schools, and 5 percent of teachers in rural schools.

Honestly, I think that many people get a view of public schools as being like the school in Stand By Me,

[Madame Pomfrey]

I think we might interpret the figures differently. To me, the statistic you quoted above says that for every class of 30 kids, approx. 1 or 2 will be victimized IN SCHOOL (in just six months). That's just not acceptable to me - and this is only reported crimes. The past few years have shown a huge increase in "no snitch" pacts and retributions.

"...In 2007, for example, 9 percent of males carried a weapon on school property, compared to 3 percent of females, and 29 percent of males carried a weapon anywhere, compared to 7 percent of females..."

That means that in a class of 30 kids, about 2 or 3 are carrying a weapon on average. Of course more kids are carrying weapons on the street or at the mall - 29% scares me to death.

"...12 percent said they had been in a fight on school property..."

And considering the number of kids carrying weapons I would consider this serious.

I think perhaps we should just agree to disagree. I do apologize if my opinions on the quality and safety of public education are offensive to you. I grew up in a time when it was much more unusual to be victimized and a fight was something people talked about for weeks.

But the society was different then. Our parents expected more and the whole world moved slower and less violently toward a high school graduation.

Have a great day!

Lucie

P.S. Lillian wrote, "And I just have to jump in and point out that the irony of this is that the public schools are shielded from some of the problems you can encounter in private ones - because there are laws and procedures that kick in to monitor certain problems that private ones can ignore." and I have to say, great point. I have heard the same actually said about homeschooling. Do we realize it?

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

I would like to see records and statistics that say that the great majority of US schools are facing terrible violence and crime in the classrooms. And I am not talking about bullying, because I don't care WHERE in the world you are, or WHERE in TIME you are, bullying is, has, and forever will be a problem until we become autobots.

How do you suggest that our society deals with the many 'ills' affecting young children, and please, explain what those ills are.

I have to agree with Madame Pomfrey really. The schools in the US, and even here in Australia to a certain degree, are not always safe places for children to be. Of course not EVERY SINGLE school is a bastion of gang violence and assaults, but in every single school children are bullied, abused & harassed by their peers or those in higher grades... your bolded statement sounds way too much like 'boys will be boys' to me honestly. It's sad that you (and presumably other parents as well) think that this is ok in ANY way, shape or form. And it's not always just the children, the teachers can be just as nasty as the badly behaved kids... they just call it disciplining instead of bullying. (fine to tell my kid why he can't do x and to behave, NOT fine to berate a child in front of classmates)

Violence' (in quotes because bullying IS violence) is harmful to our kids in any form, and shouldn't be tolerated period. Our species does nto have to become autobots before realizing that, nor does it have to do so before stepping in to put a stop to that.

Everyone here refers just to US schools, but here are a few incidents from Aussie schools in recent memory.

* grade 1 girls cornered in toilet blocks by 7yo boys and fondled genitally after having their skirts & undies yanked down.

*Autistic student bullied badly, then given a 'stop' sign to hold up by his teacher if it happened again... leading to him being bullied even more so.

*And the worst yet... Jai Morcom

so it's not just Americas schools...sadly.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

I really think private and public schools are apples and oranges - you can't compare them when talking education reform because private schools are shielded - at least partially - from many of the problems facing the public schools.

The biggest difference that was pointed out to me by a high school English teacher this year was that private schools can choose who they take in and keep. He has one class this year that has 7 special needs kids in it - each with a different special need. As a result, the entire class has been slowed down. In a private school, they would not take 7 special needs kids in one class and, you're right, he would be paid substantially less.

We also have to keep in mind that a larger and larger portion of the public school budgets goes to security systems, guards, and technology like SmartBoards. Our high school achieves satisfactory Algebra scores from only 20% of its freshmen, yet every classroom supposedly has a SmartBoard. Are they helping?

It's a big big issue and I certainly don't claim to be a huge expert. Again I'm glad if budgets are not an issue in some places - they are here even with a lottery to help support them.

And I totally agree with the the poster who said that when asked why you homeschool just to stick with the positive. We DO homeschool because we are passionate about education and enjoy being with our children, sharing the experience...but I will stick up for homeschooling when it is put down.

Have a great day,

Lucie
off to teach 9th grade WW2 this morning
and 4th grade Lewis & Clark this afternoon

One thing my SIL (who has taught in private and public school) noted was that you have very DIFFERENT issues as a teacher in a private school. For instance, the parents are more likely to be involved (which definitely is a good thing, but they have a definite financial interest in making sure the kid gets to the next grade, kwim?) compared with a public school where you'll have a lot more parents who don't encourage kids outside of school, more homes where there are no books, etc. The flip side, though, is that having parents all involved, but not necessarily interested in working WITH the teacher sort of creates a "too many cooks spoil the stew" phenomenon, where all the parents have different ways they want to see things done and because they're paying for it, they can get very pushy about it.

I mean, from a parent perspective, i can see wanting to have some say, but from a teacher perspective, that has to be difficult at best. It's not necessarily that the school gets to "pick who they keep" but there's also sort of an automatic sort as to who gets in, because of the price tag... and the price tag can cause parents to act differently than they might at another school... or maybe the flip side, the parents who want more control send their kids to private school?

I dunno. It's definitely a different dynamic at private school than public school, though.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by Madame Pomfrey

I really think private and public schools are apples and oranges - you can't compare them when talking education reform because private schools are shielded - at least partially - from many of the problems facing the public schools.

The biggest difference that was pointed out to me by a high school English teacher this year was that private schools can choose who they take in and keep. He has one class this year that has 7 special needs kids in it - each with a different special need. As a result, the entire class has been slowed down. In a private school, they would not take 7 special needs kids in one class and, you're right, he would be paid substantially less.

We also have to keep in mind that a larger and larger portion of the public school budgets goes to security systems, guards, and technology like SmartBoards. Our high school achieves satisfactory Algebra scores from only 20% of its freshmen, yet every classroom supposedly has a SmartBoard. Are they helping?

It's a big big issue and I certainly don't claim to be a huge expert. Again I'm glad if budgets are not an issue in some places - they are here even with a lottery to help support them.

And I totally agree with the the poster who said that when asked why you homeschool just to stick with the positive. We DO homeschool because we are passionate about education and enjoy being with our children, sharing the experience...but I will stick up for homeschooling when it is put down.

Have a great day,

Lucie
off to teach 9th grade WW2 this morning
and 4th grade Lewis & Clark this afternoon

Like a pp pointed out, they just have different issues. And I don't think I ever said that budgets weren't an issue everywhere (I don't know what you were referencing).

You CAN fire a tenured teacher. It's more work. I've watched it happen.

But there is research that shows the efficacy of non-traditionally-trained (alternate route) teachers being higher than traditionally-trained teachers. To that end, since private schools are not under the restriction of hiring licensed teachers--this may also contribute to their success.

I've attended both public and private. They had different, but equally problematic issues.

As a teacher, I don't think parental involvement is a problem unless your administration is unwilling to have faith in your ability to teach and knows you well enough to know that you are open to parental input and can evaluate the situation objectively (assuming you are/can). I taught in a wealthy district where parents had a LOT of say in what went on in a classroom. It wasn't a problem.

This was an article I had to read for an Urban Education course last year. As this semester ends, I want to get his book and look at the research he cites to see if it supports what he's saying or if he's twisting it and assuming that nobody will look... because it's interesting stuff. I've seen research to support a chunk of it, though.

http://www.americanexperiment.org/up...tion_myths.pdf

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by kgianforti

She probably watched that one episode of Wife Swap where the kids WERE behind because the parents were too lazy to really do anything with them and called it "unschooling". If I didn't know anything about HSing, I would think it was wacky based on seeing that show!!

Wife Swap tends to make HSing look really bad. They rarely have good examples of HS on that show and always pair the HS families up with hard core, socializing, public school families. Never fails!

I saw a Wife Swap the other day where the HSing family traveled along with a carnival. That was taking it a bit too far IMO. I felt kind of sorry for those children. I know there are army brats and what not and people who move a lot...but every single week being in a different place and eating carnival junk food all day, ick! That was a sad show.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

http://www.americanexperiment.org/up...tion_myths.pdf

He uses the word "research" a lot, but doesn't give any citations. Looks like a political opinion piece to me.

I completely support my local public schools. They are a great choice for lots of kids. We support several private schools by spending $$$ at their fundraising fairs. They are a great choice for some kids as well.

We homeschool as an affirmative choice about the best fit for our kids...the studies are helpful (and I think supportive of the hs'ing choice) but not definitive.

I love reading the research though!

[kgianforti]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Wife Swap tends to make HSing look really bad. They rarely have good examples of HS on that show and always pair the HS families up with hard core, socializing, public school families. Never fails!

I saw a Wife Swap the other day where the HSing family traveled along with a carnival. That was taking it a bit too far IMO. I felt kind of sorry for those children. I know there are army brats and what not and people who move a lot...but every single week being in a different place and eating carnival junk food all day, ick! That was a sad show.

LOL! Yes, that was the one I was thinking of! Teaching gravity on the Tilt-A-Whirl. But with shows like that, I can easily see where people think HSing is terrible and the children don't actually learn anything.

[mattemma04]

I have heard that sort of thing as well though it was coming from a ps music teacher. I would just say I was confident my children were learning everything I felt they needed to know at this time.

I actually have my kids in montessori right now and I can tell you that no school setting can provide your child with a perfect education.All school settings have pros and cons.

Watch out because she sounds like the type who will constantly quiz your kids,and get satisfaction if they don't answer her correctly.

And yes those parent swapping shows with hsing always made the kids look bad.Never seen one yet where they were positive about the kids or the parent who tried to hs the other kids.

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Wife Swap tends to make HSing look really bad. They rarely have good examples of HS on that show and always pair the HS families up with hard core, socializing, public school families. Never fails!

Wife swap makes just about EVERYTHING look bad Of course, that gets more viewers & in turn more advertisers so that's what they go for. And viewers, being brilliant, totally get sucked in and somehow MISS that the show goes for the most outlandish, flamboyant and controversial edge possible