December H1N1/Swine Flu Vax Discussion

[amnesiac]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ement.php?f=47

H1N1 vax discussion for the month of December!

Please remember that this thread is for vaccine issues. Disease specific discussion such as treatment, spread or prevention other than vaccines should be placed in our Health & Healing forum.

Please also remember that any news/current event discussions must remain focused on the general vaccine related issue in this forum & should not focus on any specific individual. Speculation or conspiracy theories are also not something we wish to host here.

Feel free to PM any Vax moderator with any questions, comments or concerns.

[Juvysen]

subbing

[doudat]

Reposting from last night

Tiny ray of sunshine in all this muck:

I went to our local library sunday around 11am with my son and it so happens that it is annexed to a makeshift vaccination center (aka a big white tent).
The good news? It was nearly empty.

So Montrealers seem to have gotten over the mass hysteria.

On a sadder note, my son told the other kids in his group at daycare he didn't get a vaccine because I told him it contains poison (only 2 of the 10 in the group opted out )
I felt bad for that one, since the kids aren't to blame and I didn't want them to be freaked out, but the daycare worker contained the situation

[slinden]

I made an "Influenza Awareness" bulletin board for work (I'm a medical librarian at a nursing school) and I used some CDC data to make some graphs. I thought you guys might like to see what I produced--it's mortality, morbidity and pediatric deaths associated with pneumonia and influenza since 1999 to the present. I hope I crunched the numbers accurately, feel free to check my work! http://s906.photobucket.com/albums/ac267/1inden1eaf/

(Source: Centers for Disease Control. Flu Activity & Surveillance [Data files]. Retrieved from http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/fluactivity.htm).

[newmum35]

I thought this was interesting

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-73970737.html


reposting some links for anyone new to the discussion:

Dr Gordon has some good swine flu info on his page

http://www.drjaygordon.com/


Also I noticed Dr Tenpenny's site has been updated as well:

http://drtenpenny.com/


Lots of good info here, and let's not forget NVIC as well!

http://www.nvic.org/

[Rosebud1]

I have a vax question, I haven't seen it answered on other threads.

As it stands now, I want my DD to be exposed to the virus. I am not saying I want her to get it, it is just my understanding that natural exposure is good. That way her immune system has had contact with it and knows how to fight it off. It is my understanding that this ability is permanent -- she has a body memory of it and it stays with her immune-wise possibly for the rest of her life. I have read how some older Americans have been exposed to this flu many years ago and still have the ability to fight it.

That said, if she is given the H1N1 vax, will her body also "know" how to fight it off from then on? Is it permanent, this ability?

Also, what happens if the virus mutates over time? Will natural immunity (from natural exposure in the past) still protect her? Would the vax (developed and given before the new strain develops) be useful?

I would appreciate your insights on this!

[slinden]

ok, i have a question, too. so... as it stands, i'm a pretty darned healthy person. i hardly ever come down with the flu... it's been at least five years, i tihnk, maybe longer. anyhow, i'm wondering if i am still gaining immunity to things even though i'm not coming down with a full-blown case of it, kwim? i work at a library now, so it's not like i keep myself in a bubble of isolation or anything.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

I have a vax question, I haven't seen it answered on other threads.

As it stands now, I want my DD to be exposed to the virus. I am not saying I want her to get it, it is just my understanding that natural exposure is good. That way her immune system has had contact with it and knows how to fight it off. It is my understanding that this ability is permanent -- she has a body memory of it and it stays with her immune-wise possibly for the rest of her life. I have read how some older Americans have been exposed to this flu many years ago and still have the ability to fight it.

That said, if she is given the H1N1 vax, will her body also "know" how to fight it off from then on? Is it permanent, this ability?

Also, what happens if the virus mutates over time? Will natural immunity (from natural exposure in the past) still protect her? Would the vax (developed and given before the new strain develops) be useful?

I would appreciate your insights on this!

Nope, it's not permanant. Think of other vaccines - you have to get a booster to keep the immunity going.

If the virus mutates, depending on HOW it mutates, it won't be useful to have had EITHER the vax or the natural immunity, from what I understand. Basically, there are parts of the virus that your body "recognizes" when it's had it before (or a vax) but if one of (or a certain number of) those sites on the virus mutates, you won't be protected any longer, as far as I know. Vaccinating with the old virus after the virus has mutated would be an exercise in futility.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by slinden

ok, i have a question, too. so... as it stands, i'm a pretty darned healthy person. i hardly ever come down with the flu... it's been at least five years, i tihnk, maybe longer. anyhow, i'm wondering if i am still gaining immunity to things even though i'm not coming down with a full-blown case of it, kwim? i work at a library now, so it's not like i keep myself in a bubble of isolation or anything.

I believe you are, yes. Or likely to be. Many people come down with things sub-clinically (that is, your body is fighting it so well that you don't get symptoms), or even being exposed to things in the environment that doesn't cause a full blown infection can still give you antibodies. For instance, I read a statistic that many of the people (60% or something? I can't remember) who had never had chicken pox before age 10, when tested, still showed antibodies to the virus in their system. That is, they never showed signs of having had the virus, but had clearly been exposed and developed antibodies to it. This of course was before the vaccine made chicken pox much less common in the population... harder to be exposed if it's not floating around, you know?

[slinden]

thanks, juvysen. that was along the lines of what i was thinking, too. i hope that is what's happening!

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by slinden

thanks, juvysen. that was along the lines of what i was thinking, too. i hope that is what's happening!

I think it's also possible that a lot of the things you're being exposed to are things you've been exposed to before, years ago, and your body just knows how to fight them. The older you get, the more you're exposed to, you know? And if you already have the antibodies (and are still in a place where your immune system is healthy), then you may just be fighting stuff off b/c you've had it before.

ETA... for instance, the year I worked in a daycare started out with me being sick ALL.THE.TIME... for like 3 months. The next year, while I was more diligent about handwashing, I still certainly got coughed on/sneezed on, etc a fair amount, and only got one mild cold. I think I'd just pretty much been exposed to all the stuff the kids had had via the year before... or maybe being exposed that year beefed up my immune system and it did better the next winter.

[slinden]

interesting! that's one of the big reasons why i am hoping that i *am* getting the exposure... so that way my body has a little "memory" of this virus (and other things, i don't use that antibacterial lotion stuff). i guess i figure i'd rather get all of the exposure i can now (within reason) so that way as i get older or whatever (i'm 25 now) that i have a some support based on prior exposure and immunity.

[Marnica]

H1N1 flu shot rumors bug health officials

well the constant bull---- that we are spoonfed by health officials, the media, and our government bug me!!!

http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/i...bug_healt.html


but wait.....I guess I am one of these who think it is "fashionable" to not vaccinate

The Internet is awash in junk science and scare stories, and it's become somewhat fashionable to trash vaccinations in general....The detractors don't trust the government, the health authorities, the scientists or the media. They make light of swine flu, and several stated with unwavering certainty that vaccines are behind a surge in autism cases, even though numerous scientific studies found no credibility to it. They were sure those studies were manipulated, and everybody is in bed with the vaccine makers.

They're bad-rapping reputable studies that show again and again no relation between vaccines and these illnesses," Nixon said. "Those linkages were studied rigorously

my blood pressure can't can't stand much more...deny deny deny....that's the motto. Ignore other studies that do show a link....some days I feel I may go mad

[AnalogWife]

Originally Posted by Marnica

http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/i...bug_healt.html

Wow, what a pompous and ridiculous article!!

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by AnalogWife

Wow, what a pompous and ridiculous article!!

Well, obviously it must be fashion, because anyone who could THINK wouldn't bother questioning the status quo... right?

*sigh* It freaks me out (and is exhausting) swimming against the main stream ALL.THE.TIME.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Well, obviously it must be fashion, because anyone who could THINK wouldn't bother questioning the status quo... right?

*sigh* It freaks me out (and is exhausting) swimming against the main stream ALL.THE.TIME.

Yes...and for some reason it is getting to me more today that it usually does.
*sigh*

[SneakyPie]

Originally Posted by slinden

ok, i have a question, too. so... as it stands, i'm a pretty darned healthy person. i hardly ever come down with the flu... it's been at least five years, i tihnk, maybe longer. anyhow, i'm wondering if i am still gaining immunity to things even though i'm not coming down with a full-blown case of it, kwim? i work at a library now, so it's not like i keep myself in a bubble of isolation or anything.

It is possible. It is also possible that more and more people in your community are either getting flu vaccine, or at least not going out while they are sick -- both of which reduce the likelihood that you will get the flu. There is probably a combination of factors interacting.

[KimPM]

This is a good article on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the flu vaccine.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1

(This article is not really H1N1 specific, but they do mention it. I'm just putting my comment here in this thread, instead of starting another thread, because it will probably get moved here anyway )

[newmum35]

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

I have a vax question, I haven't seen it answered on other threads.

As it stands now, I want my DD to be exposed to the virus. I am not saying I want her to get it, it is just my understanding that natural exposure is good. That way her immune system has had contact with it and knows how to fight it off. It is my understanding that this ability is permanent -- she has a body memory of it and it stays with her immune-wise possibly for the rest of her life. I have read how some older Americans have been exposed to this flu many years ago and still have the ability to fight it.

That said, if she is given the H1N1 vax, will her body also "know" how to fight it off from then on? Is it permanent, this ability?

Also, what happens if the virus mutates over time? Will natural immunity (from natural exposure in the past) still protect her? Would the vax (developed and given before the new strain develops) be useful?

I would appreciate your insights on this!

No. Immunity from vaccines (assuming they even work in the first place) is usually temporary, although there are a few that work better than others and are more longer lasting. This is why you need continual "boosters" because immunity gained from vaccines decreases over time.

All those old people now (1/3 of people over 60) who have "immunity" to H1N1 because they have been exposed to the real virus (or a variation of) in 1957 pandemic.. well you can imagine if they had all had flu vaccines back then instead, then they'd all be susceptible today! Getting the REAL ILLNESS is your best bet if you want to acquire permanent and lifelong immunity to the disease!

IF vaccines were perfectly safe with NO questionable ingredients or negative side effects whatsoever, I'd STILL not want a flu vaccine! I prefer natural immunity, just the way nature intended. I don't want to be old and vulnerable someday. (more so than you normally are when you are elderly, that is!)

With a mutated virus my understanding is there may be SOME protection gained from having had the real illness - parts of the germ your body will still recognize. You may get sick, but it will be milder than if you had never had it. So it is still beneficial to have had it, even if it does mutate in the future and you are exposed again.

[jadedqueen123]

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

Also, what happens if the virus mutates over time? Will natural immunity (from natural exposure in the past) still protect her? Would the vax (developed and given before the new strain develops) be useful?

I would appreciate your insights on this!

Influenza is a tricky bugger. It has an amazing ability to mutate as it does not have DNA as a 'self proof-reading mechanism' where RNA (which is what influenza contains) has no such system and is able to rapidly mutate. Your body will only recognize the initial invader, not the mutations. Luckily, most mutations will interfere with the functioning of the virus or kill it off.

The chief antigens of influenza virus are the hamagglutinin and the neuraminidase protruding from it's surface, these mutate the most rapidly and it becomes impossible for your immune system to keep pace. Basically the antibodies you make for the initial attack can't easily read them anymore. It's like if you were wearing a blue shirt and white pants when the immune system first saw you, then you changed it to blue pants and a white shirt, it can still kind of figure out that you are the same person. However, influenza is able to change into a green shirt with black pants and the antigens no longer can figure out that it's still you.

That's why they have to constantly monitor for mutations and every season change the virus that is in the vaccine.