Target calls. the. cops. on a nursing mom.

[RoseDuperre]

I wish this were one of those HA - gotcha-with-my-outrageous-title, here's-site-info threads. But alas.

The mother says she started breast-feeding her child, security said it was illegal, they disagreed, and then the cops were called.

She and her husband told this by security: "He said, 'It's against the law. You have to go,'" said Jose Martinez. Jose, a Detroit police officer, knew it isn't against the law even in the electronics aisle at Target. The couple say it wasn't crowded in that section at the time.

Harper Woods police were called to the scene. They joined Target security talking with the Martinez family until the couple and child left embarrassed.

Target, do you really want a boycott on the cusp of the holiday shopping season? Hmm? Because if you don't make with the MAJOR mea culpas, like, immediately . . .

[Krystal323]

but....but....I don't wanna not like Target!

[vbactivist]

I would like to know if anything new has happened. I won't be shopping there.

[mntnmom]

It sounds like even the management at that store issued a statement against this. But I would like to hear that the security guards etc.got in some serious trouble.

[proudmomof4]

So that's what the police are for? You would think they have something to do!

[2boyzmama]

While of course I agree that the principle behind this is wrong on so many levels, I have to think that there are details that are being left out. The few times that someone has approached me in public, I calmly and politely say "no thank you, I don't want to move [or cover, or stop, etc]" and if they press the issue I then say "the law supports my right to breastfeed in public". Calm, polite, factual...not argumentative, not defensive, not loud or rude or disruptive...

It sounds like a scene of some sort was made, obviously started by the security guards, but the way that the family handled it may not have been the most ideal. If Target is saying that they had to intervene for the "safety of [their] guests" then it must have escalated in some way. And that doesn't help the lactivism cause.

This is wrong, but probably could have been prevented from escalating.

[seashells]

Originally Posted by 2boyzmama

While of course I agree that the principle behind this is wrong on so many levels, I have to think that there are details that are being left out. The few times that someone has approached me in public, I calmly and politely say "no thank you, I don't want to move [or cover, or stop, etc]" and if they press the issue I then say "the law supports my right to breastfeed in public". Calm, polite, factual...not argumentative, not defensive, not loud or rude or disruptive...

It sounds like a scene of some sort was made, obviously started by the security guards, but the way that the family handled it may not have been the most ideal. If Target is saying that they had to intervene for the "safety of [their] guests" then it must have escalated in some way. And that doesn't help the lactivism cause.

I don't see how blaming the family is warranted. It does not necessarily follow that every person who gets the cops called on them deserve it. The security guards thought (or at least claimed to think) nursing was illegal.

I can't stand this kind of smug, superior attitude that says "if it happened to me, it wouldn't have happened at all." Yup, being calm and polite is great, and I recommend it for everyone, but it's ludicrous to say that cops are only called on the deserving. There are nutcases out there who will call the police on calm, polite, nursing mothers, that's reality.

[2boyzmama]

Originally Posted by seashells

I don't see how blaming the family is warranted. It does not necessarily follow that every person who gets the cops called on them deserve it. The security guards thought (or at least claimed to think) nursing was illegal.

I can't stand this kind of smug, superior attitude that says "if it happened to me, it wouldn't have happened at all." Yup, being calm and polite is great, and I recommend it for everyone, but it's ludicrous to say that cops are only called on the deserving. There are nutcases out there who will call the police on calm, polite, nursing mothers, that's reality.

Yes, obviously the security guards were initially in the wrong, no doubt about that. And I did not intend AT ALL to be smug or superior, I think you are reading way too much into this (we're on the same side!!!!). Nor am I being ludicrous...goodness. I am merely wondering what happened that Target felt "escalated the situation" and caused concern for the "safety" of other guests??

I mean, did a shouting match start? If so, then yes, the family is somewhat at fault, not for initiating anything, but for not conducting themselves in a manner that was conducive to solving the problem. It takes two to "fight". If the mom had simply stayed where she was and calmly responded, then it's *more likely* (not guaranteed, obviously) that the situation would not have escalated.

I don't know if that's what happened, if the family behaved in any way that escalated things, I said that it sounds like some details were left out of the account. Obviously there are ignorant, misinformed, or downright stupid people who might make a scene of it anyway, and if that's what happened in this case, then it's really angering.

Please don't attack me when I was simply stating that I wondered if there was more to it, and I pointed out that often situations can be resolved calmly and politely.

[lotusdebi]

Her baby is 4 weeks old? I don't know about any of you, but I know I was an emotional wreck at 4 weeks post-partum. And still an emotional wreck for months afterwards. I would've caused a scene, probably including yelling and crying. Though, to be perfectly honest, if I ever witnessed someone's rights being blatently violated, I'd still make a scene. And I can't blame post-partum hormones for that now. I don't think that making a scene - being loud, upset, drawing attention to the situation- is such a horrible thing. If they weren't a risk to themselves or others, what's the issue? The cops came, and should've told the Target employees that they were wrong and to stop harassing the mom. If things escalated, it's the fault of the people working at Target for making breastfeeding an issue to begin with.

[annettemarie]

I have removed several posts discussing/quoting comments. This is considered discussing other online communities negatively, and is against the UA. Please do not do this. The last thing we need is a bunch of rabid anti-breastfeeding trolls coming to MDC because they found their words in a search. Thanks!

[2boyzmama]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

Her baby is 4 weeks old? I don't know about any of you, but I know I was an emotional wreck at 4 weeks post-partum. And still an emotional wreck for months afterwards. I would've caused a scene, probably including yelling and crying. Though, to be perfectly honest, if I ever witnessed someone's rights being blatently violated, I'd still make a scene. And I can't blame post-partum hormones for that now. I don't think that making a scene - being loud, upset, drawing attention to the situation- is such a horrible thing. If they weren't a risk to themselves or others, what's the issue? The cops came, and should've told the Target employees that they were wrong and to stop harassing the mom. If things escalated, it's the fault of the people working at Target for making breastfeeding an issue to begin with.

If a scene was made (yelling, crying, arguing, etc) then it would have been appropriate for the store to remove those involved from the floor and perhaps take them to a more private area to settle the issue. I agree that the scene would not have started in the first place if the security guards hadn't intervened. Obviously they're wrong. But then once things got out of hand (if they did, the account doesn't really say) then Target needed to control it.

If any customer, doing anything--legal, ethical, moral, doesn't matter--causes a scene, the store needs to control the scene as quickly as possible. Yes, they caused the scene initially, no one is arguing that.

I think this is another example of a cascade...the mom wasn't doing anything wrong, someone tried to tell her she was, it could have--should have--ended there. Something happened, things appeared to get escalated, then Target had to intervene MORE. Is it right? No. But that's how things get more out of hand. It is very difficult to keep calm when confronted, particularly when hormones are involved (I've been there, I know), but losing control and causing a scene does not help anything, it only further escalates things and causes a bigger scene.

And again, we don't know if that is what happened, the story doesn't say. And again, yes, the security guards were wrong. And again, no, I'm not placing any initial blame on the family.

[rivkah]

Wow?!

Did anyone else notice that the father is a police officer also? That makes this story seem even more ridiculous to me.

Kudos to the local news for actually showing the mother nursing!

[lotusdebi]

Originally Posted by 2boyzmama

If a scene was made (yelling, crying, arguing, etc) then it would have been appropriate for the store to remove those involved from the floor and perhaps take them to a more private area to settle the issue.

So, the woman and her husband arguing with the security guards about whether or not breastfeeding is illegal constitutes reason for the store to remove them? If the woman was crying because her rights were being violated, because she was being accused of breaking the law, because she has hormones, because she was doing her best to feed her child, or because she suddenly had to deal with the prospect of being hauled off to jail and being separated from her baby - then it would have been appropriate for the store to remove her? I have to disagree.

From the article:

"This specific situation escalated to a point where we were concerned for the safety of our guests, so law enforcement was called. We regret the incident in our store and will continue to provide a shopping environment that respects the needs of all guests, including nursing mothers."

Law enforcement was called because the situation escalated to a point where they were concerned for the safety of their guests. So, either the parents were becoming violent towards the store employees, or the store employees wanted to further harass the parents because they were arguing for their rights. Crying and arguing are not reasons to call the police, or to be concerned for the safety of the other customers. I have to wonder if racism was an issue in this case. I'd love to know more details about the situation.

[Marsupialmom]

I hate to pull a race card but with their last name and name of their baby, I am going to say the problem is not NIP but being hispanic.

I do not think having PP hormones does not gives anyone permission to be yell, hollar, et at another person -- if (great IF) that was how they responded to being ask to leave then that is wrong. Even though I would look into what I feel the intial issue was (since I have seen it before) then look at to both parties actions. Both party's could have been behaving badly.


*******
I hate to admit this but some mom's need to settle a little. I asked a nursing mom to move for her safety at Home Depot. We were clearing all people from the isle/section because of a broken safety cable. I nursed all 3 of my children and in public but when someone syas "You will need to move now because that safety cable broke" don't argue your legal rights. Yes, I know you have a legal right to nurse there but I don't want to see all that wood fall on you. No, your child will not be harmed by stopping nursing for you to move to a safe location. Yes, it is a PITA and your child might cry but it is better than having stuff fall on you.

I offered one mom a desk chair instead of a cart that says "Do not stand or sit on" does not merit a legal diatribe about your rights to nurse. There is a reason why that cart says do not sit or stand on it. Don't call me a f*(& ignorant w*((^.

I have been asked to stop nursing and have people thow tantrums because I was nursing. Rudeness never won anyone over.

[GoldmanBaby09]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

I offered one mom a desk chair instead of a cart that says "Do not stand or sit on" does not merit a legal diatribe about your rights to nurse. There is a reason why that cart says do not sit or stand on it.

I don't think that was the issue here. She was in the electronics department. I doubt they told her to stop nursing for her safety.

I can't say I wouldn't get in arms if someone at the Target told me to stop nursing my baby, and I would certainly be taking up my treatment with Target headquarters. I'm sure if this mom had whipped out a bottle no one would have batted an eyelash. And maybe I'm weird, but hearing stuff like this makes me want to NIP more! I will not cover my baby's head nor will I go to a bathroom to nurse. Ever.

[2boyzmama]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

So, the woman and her husband arguing with the security guards about whether or not breastfeeding is illegal constitutes reason for the store to remove them? If the woman was crying because her rights were being violated, because she was being accused of breaking the law, because she has hormones, because she was doing her best to feed her child, or because she suddenly had to deal with the prospect of being hauled off to jail and being separated from her baby - then it would have been appropriate for the store to remove her? I have to disagree.

From the article:

Law enforcement was called because the situation escalated to a point where they were concerned for the safety of their guests. So, either the parents were becoming violent towards the store employees, or the store employees wanted to further harass the parents because they were arguing for their rights. Crying and arguing are not reasons to call the police, or to be concerned for the safety of the other customers. I have to wonder if racism was an issue in this case. I'd love to know more details about the situation.

See, this gets touchy...if any customer is making a scene AT ALL, the store is within their right to do what they can to minimize the impact to other guests. In this case, it could have been as simple as moving everyone involved to a private location and sorting it out. The reason a store does this is because other shoppers may notice the disturbance and choose to leave the store, which of course means the store loses money. So their policy probably states that all efforts should be made to settle the situation in private.

In this case, the scene of course wouldn't have happened at all if security hadn't been wrong to begin with. BUT, once it escalates to the point that other shoppers may witness it (yelling, crying, arguing) then it IS appropriate to ask that those involved move somewhere else to settle it. Should they be evicted from the store? No. Again this is where the article's lack of details is frustrating. Maybe security did ask that the family move somewhere so they could discuss it, and maybe the family was very vocal about their refusal. If that occurred, and if their "vocalness" was extreme, then I can see where the store would be concerned that it could escalate more.

Do I think that all nursing moms should hide to nurse? Of couse not! Do I think the store handled this appropriately? No! But once things got out of hand, should the store have tried to minimize it? YES. Because at that point, the issue is no longer the woman breastfeeding; the issue becomes the public disturbance caused by the argument.

Again, please don't think that I'm advocating anything other than full acceptance of a woman breastfeeding in public. I do it, I've been approached about it, I encourage other women to do it.

[rivkah]

I really don't think we should be blaming the parents here, unless we find evidence of truly egregious behavior. We would all like to think that we'd handle the situation calmly, but how about a little empathy? Can you imagine how angry, startled, and embarrassed you'd be? I may have completely freaked out. The chances that anyone's safety was truly threatened are very slim. Likely, Dad got angry because his wife and baby were being mistreated and perhaps raised his voice. I would also agree that the couple's race was very likely part of the "safety" fear. I have unfortunately seen Latinos treated unfairly on more tan one occasion in public places.

[2boyzmama]

I'm obviously having trouble getting my point across, and I apologize for that.

Yes, I have empathy for the family. I CAN imagine what it felt like, as it HAS happened to me.

I am NOT meaning to come across as placing blame on the family, I have said numerous times that Target was initially in the wrong. However, if the response from the family was indeed extreme, then Target was correct in attempting to minimize the situation. If Target somehow interpreted the family's reaction with racial tendencies, then they are even more in the wrong. But the fact still remains, asking any person to kindly take a disagreement to a more private place for it to be settled IS appropriate for any store. Regardless of how legal or illegal the argument is; also regardless of who "started" the argument in the first place.

I do not mean to defend Target, as it was their response that created this problem in the first place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the end result (the couple being escorted from the store) likely had little to do with her breastfeeding, and more to do with the escalation. Target was wrong for starting it, but "IF" it truly spiraled, then Target was right for trying to minimize its impact on other shoppers.

I'm a lactivist guys!! But I also think that politeness and civility--on both sides--can make all the difference in situations like this. It's just something to try to remember in any situation. Yelling/arguing creates problems, calmly stating the law and responding with civility alleviates problems. Or at least can alleviate problems.

[Marsupialmom]

Originally Posted by GoldmanBaby09

I don't think that was the issue here. She was in the electronics department. I doubt they told her to stop nursing for her safety.

I can't say I wouldn't get in arms if someone at the Target told me to stop nursing my baby, and I would certainly be taking up my treatment with Target headquarters. I'm sure if this mom had whipped out a bottle no one would have batted an eyelash. And maybe I'm weird, but hearing stuff like this makes me want to NIP more! I will not cover my baby's head nor will I go to a bathroom to nurse. Ever.

What I am gettign at is diplomacy gets you a lot further than yelling and cursing. If they would have calmly stated it is with in my legal rights, then asked him to get the manager involved -- without cuss words or yelling, if that didn't work then leaving and taking it up the chain. The security gaurd acted out in ignorance and maybe racially motivated. That does not give the person a right to respond with more ignornace. With how this esculated, this might have been the situation.

True story - Once I was nursing in Best Buy, another customer goes to the sales guy and points out I was nursing. What does the sales guy do? He offers me a better chair to make me more comfortable. This customer irrately ask for his manager. The manager came and ask about the problem. The manager looked at me and asked me if I was comfortable. Calmly tells them nursing doesn't take that long and offers them to show them other products. Both Best Buy agents responded calmly and were able to defuse the customers emotions because they realize they were not going sway Best Buy.

My first NIP experience was when my son was 3 or 4 days old. I was not comfortable with nursing yet. I had only seen a woman nurse until I watch myself nurse. So I went to the bathroom. I had this old bat tell me I should give him a bottle and not do that. I was a lot of things at this point, angry was one of them. As much as I wanted to yelling, cussing, et would not have been the way to handle it. It would have illicate a more negative responce from her. I actually just ignored her and vowed never to nurse in the bathroom again because I realized no matter were I nursed someone would have issues and they could get over it. I did learn when you run into these situations being the bigger person and showing manners leaves a better impression.

[Equuskia]

"Concerned for the safety of their customers" could have been as simple as she didn't leave when told to, and other customers would have been exposed to her breast.