Re: mothers who bully

[Encinalien]

Umm.. I’m posting this because my dad just sent it to me as an outline of how to quit having to defend myself from my mom constantly if I want to have a relationship with her. I know this method works because I recognize the “formula” here that dh used to “train” me. I didn’t know it was a formula. I know as an ordinary woman I was irate with him for hanging up on me- how dare he?! He really doesn’t do that any more. We don’t argue. I’m proud to say we’re raising ds in a drama-free household.

[Encinalien]

When your mom goes off on a rant on the phone, don't answer - either out loud or in your head.
When she's talking, don't agree. Don't disagree. Don't grunt. Just let her talk her own energy out.

When she stops and asks specific questions, pause. Take a deep breath. Make sure you're clear - mentally, emotionally, spiritually. She'll complain about that, and might start into another rant about your pause or whatever -

- at which point you remain silent (ignore or analyze, whichever works internally for whatever she's dishing.)

Eventually, she'll want a reply. So think clearly, calmly, and answer softly, slowly, lovingly, gracefully. Use short clear sentences about yourself - don't talk about her. If your answer is "I can't let your emotional crap infect me anymore," phrase it something like "I'm working on becoming calm and centered and focused."

[Encinalien]

A series of lines to use - whenever you want or need to:

"I'm sorry, mom, but I can't have this conversation right now. Can we change the subject?"

...then, when she doesn't change the subject...

"I'm sorry, mom, but since we can't change the subject, I'm going to have to hang up the phone now."

...then, when she still won't let it go - speak over her and say:

"I love you, mom, I'll talk to you again in a week when we're able to better communicate - 'bye." and hang up the phone.

If she calls back, and starts right back in, simply say:

"I'm sorry mom, I can't have this conversation, I love you and I'll talk to you later, goodbye." and hang up again.

Repeat as necessary.
And maybe - just maybe - you can teach her peace.

[Encinalien]

Well I hope someone else finds this formula for dealing with unhealthy parents as useful as I think it will be for me. I printed it up. I actually sent a copy to my mom so she knows exactly what I'm planning and what to expect from me. And I'm going to do it.

I've tried so unsuccessfully to keep a relationship with her without negatively impacting my current life and my nuclear family. I'm unwilling to write her off. I'm unwilling to let her poison my new family that I love so much. I was at my wits end with her when my dad sent me this letter.

I split the post up into three posts so it would be easier to read because it was long. I apologize, I forgot to turn off the "siggy" in the middle reply. IDK how to correct it.

[Encinalien]

Is this not even worth talking about? No support or criticism of using this method. Does it sound familiar to anybody?

[MariaMadly]

I've been struggling with graceful detachment for a long time. It's nice to add to my toolbox! Our biggest challenge is maintaining a relationship with someone who just won't loosen the pitbull grip on her topic of choice, will have her complete say no matter who's hurt. So we're making sure that she's not invited to our home: we'll go to hers, and leave when the conversation needs to end. We hoped it wouldn't come to that, but some people just don't respond to a give and take.

[hotmamacita]

Wait your father, her husband, sent that to you?

If so, here would be MY reply.

Dear Dad,

Please deal with your mean wife.

Love,

exhausted daughter

[hotmamacita]

I probably would not send that to my dad. But I sure would not look at him as so innocent. He is backing off from her and letting her get away with all her mean and bullying styles of relating.

What was your childhood like?

[Encinalien]

"pitbull grip on the topic of the week, reguardless of who has to suffer for it". Yeah that's the way to put it.
Well my parents were never togeather. Well obviously they were togeather. But it was a strip poker game when they were teenagers. Mom went to rehab, being pregnant she felt she had to change. Dad didn't know about me until I was twelve. My childhood huh that's a couple different threads. Mom was super religious. Secretly crazy. She raised three of us alone (different dads).
With my life history everyone agrees they don't understand why I'm talking to her at all. She's just so good in so many ways. She's alone. (I mean she's supporting my grown sisters who live with her- but I meant alone as far as a support system). I complain about that too. I'm the one she treats like crap and my sisters ain't gonna take care of her when she's old-watch. It's gonna have to be me.
I'm the oldest child of a single mother with no extended family (her dad raped her repeatedly as a preteen and her mother still swears she's lying). It would kill her to know that I told anyone that, much less posted it online. But this is how heavy the burden she wants to set on my shoulders is. I tried to run away at nine. I didn't make it far. I walked 2 miles before I was caught. When I met my dad I ran away again since I had somewhere to go I thought could protect me. When she called me and said she was comming to get me and my dad couldn't stop me I tried to kill myself and ended up hospitalized and in state custody.
So. I don't really owe her anything. I haven't lived there since 14 and she was abusive. I'm only willing to have a relationship with her because my husband is very strong and very stable and I trust him to protect me and our son while I try to make some happy memories with her.
My problem with her is she even admits she depended on me way too much as a child because she had no one else. And you can guess how a good girl would have stepped up to the plate to help. She needs me now. I can't help her. Besides the fact she's seriously seceretly deranged and won't go near a therapist I have a toddler that I'm staying centered for. I can not go through the ringer with her emotionally. Even if I wanted to. Which I don't.

My dad gave me this formula which he says he used successfully to define his boundries and create a very healthy adult relationship with his mother. And I recognized the steps as something my own dh did to me to "tame" me. Everybody we know comments on how we're the most drama-free couple in town. Well that's how we got this way. Dh puts his foot down when he says " drop it". Gently. The very way my dad outlined for me to "re-direct" my mom. Even down to the word for word phrases.

Some problems with my mom include my uncle died and she wanted me at the funeral with her (see above). I couldn't. Not with a toddler. I would have to take him with me. I had to tell her. She doesn't talk to her family. She blamed me scathingly for "making her see her family.". I tried to tell her "your grief's too heavy for me. Please talk to your preacher. I can not heal you. It's too heavy.". (there's no recommending a secular therapist with her). It really is too heavy. Her hatred, anger, and grief for her family, she was dumping it on me because she has no one else. During one call I felt literrally light-headed and woozy and I can't remember now if the pain was in my throat or chest, but it was physical over the toxic feelings she was dumping in my ear.
I'm the only one who got out and got therapy. But I have a peaceful household. I have done a lot of personal growth since I left. I don't want my son seeing this.
She wants me to fly my son out there for any little thing. Her birthday. My nephews birthday. A family photo. I wouldn't mind if it was mellow to the standards ds and I are accustom. It's not. There's a fight a week between them. We already went once this year and once last year. Last year we stayed at their house. There was two minor incidents. Dh said never again. He said I'm not gonna stop you from seeing your mother, but I can't help you 1500 miles away. He explained to my mom ds and I will only be visiting her when we can afford a motel and rental car so we can have peace and enjoy our visit.
She said she understood, the specific events were mentioned. But every four months there's another reason with the "pitbull grip". On another guilt trip that last at least every day for a week "but I really want it. It really means a lot to me."

I was literally homeless as a teenager, hitch-hiking. Living out of a back pack. Sleeping under bushes. I really don't owe her this. I've made it clear I only want a happy superficial relationship with her. She refuses. She wants me to help her "fix" my sisters. Help her against her family (which I'm also cultivating a superficial relationship with)

my point- it's my turn at a normal life.

[Encinalien]

I'm just pretty impressed with the outline of of how to deflect rather than block. Isn't this an ap method for "gently disciplining mothers". You let them talk themselves "dry" while basically going away to your "happy place". And letting it flow past you. Not answering the quiestions immediately because they don't want to hear your answer as much as they want to draw you back into the line of fire. And after a thoughtful silence you give them a simple answer. If they don't validate your right to make your own choices you say "I'm not going to argue about this . I love you. I'll talk to you later.

It sounds like such a grown up response to me. So healthy.

[hotmamacita]

Originally Posted by hablame_today

Well my parents were never togeather. Well obviously they were togeather. But it was a strip poker game when they were teenagers. Mom went to rehab, being pregnant she felt she had to change. Dad didn't know about me until I was twelve. My childhood huh that's a couple different threads. Mom was super religious. Secretly crazy. She raised three of us alone (different dads). ...
I'm the oldest child of a single mother with no extended family (her dad raped her repeatedly as a preteen and her mother still swears she's lying). It would kill her to know that I told anyone that, much less posted it online. But this is how heavy the burden she wants to set on my shoulders is. I tried to run away at nine. I didn't make it far. I walked 2 miles before I was caught. When I met my dad I ran away again since I had somewhere to go I thought could protect me. When she called me and said she was comming to get me and my dad couldn't stop me I tried to kill myself and ended up hospitalized and in state custody.......I was literally homeless as a teenager, hitch-hiking. Living out of a back pack. Sleeping under bushes. I really don't owe her this. I've made it clear I only want a happy superficial relationship with her. She refuses. She wants me to help her "fix" my sisters. Help her against her family (which I'm also cultivating a superficial relationship with)

my point- it's my turn at a normal life.

What a hard relationship! I am so sorry you had to endure all you have...her abuse, her rage, her games. So your dad does not live with her?! This is just his way of interacting with her, etc.

Look I do not feel I have wise advice for you. You have good instincts and I think your husband is clear when he says he cannot protect your when you are 1500 miles away. There is a good book entitled BOLD LOVE by Dan Allendar that describes boundaries similar to those you are wanting. I really learned a lot from that book many years ago.

I am sad your mom was raped repeatedly. I wish she would get therapy for her pain. She had put a lot onto you. I hope you hear her tender and sorrowful words of regret and hope one day.

[hotmamacita]

Originally Posted by hablame_today

I'm just pretty impressed with the outline of of how to deflect rather than block. Isn't this an ap method for "gently disciplining mothers". You let them talk themselves "dry" while basically going away to your "happy place". And letting it flow past you. Not answering the quiestions immediately because they don't want to hear your answer as much as they want to draw you back into the line of fire. And after a thoughtful silence you give them a simple answer. If they don't validate your right to make your own choices you say "I'm not going to argue about this . I love you. I'll talk to you later.

It sounds like such a grown up response to me. So healthy.

I see your point. I wish you did not have to even listen to the tirades to begin with. Is it out of line to gently say "Mom I am experiencing you as angry but taking out that anger on me. If you continue in this direction, I will have to say goodbye and hang up the phone."

I wish I could help more. I care and admire that you have been so transparent here and want to gently deal with her. I personally think it is okay if you need to distance yourself from her for a while.

[Encinalien]

Thank you hotmamacita for helping me talk my way through this and for the hugs, and thank you Maria Madly for the extra tips and perspective. I really kinda want to work through this, not just “ignore her for a while” but I will if I have to. Balancing gratitude for our parents efforts raising us and responsibility fro raising our own. A woman’s work is never done. Hey, you know what I noticed? There’s a lot more “my mother… my MIL.. Threads now with the start of the holiday season?

[Encinalien]

My own childhood was pretty normal, given the circumstance. Actually, I had a pretty great childhood overall. Mom worked, she kept a job, she spent the rest of her time with us. We played board games, went to the beach often (or a river or pond, whatever we lived in.) We were at church every time the doors were open. We volunteered in the community. We had an abundance of quality toys even though were poor. We took care of our stuff and had nice stuff.
Actually, I always thought the emotional roller coaster that a woman living alone with her three daughters really had more to do with her lack of having a husband. I always thought growing up that two parents would keep each other from going crazy.
I guess the BIG problem that I’m having right now is that when I was younger I was the “hero” child. My whole maidenhood I was a “rescuer” to anyone and everyone and really anything I saw that needed rescuing. I worked tirelessly on everybody else’s problems.
She seems to think she’s “bent over backwards” to accommodate my new beliefs by not sending ds the religious toys and books as presents. But refuses to acknowledge the things I’ve explained in depth to her that I *do* believe in now. I believe in Peace. I believe in shallowness. I believe in avoiding problems. It has worked well for me. What does Dr. Phil say, “how’s that working out for you?” Well it’s working for me.

My problem is she wants to dictate how she thinks I should jump up and fight some of her battles for her, the one’s she points to and “scripts out my role” for. I mean I would, in the past. I was a hardcore Christiana. I would “fight the good fight” I lived for it.
But now I’m the mother. It’s my turn to make my own decisions. And my decisions aren’t based on what “god” wants, or what’s best for my mom and sisters, or really even my neighbors and country anymore. My decisions are based on a toddler who’s the center of my life and just on day to day life.
I’ve got the depth, that’s why she wants to count on me. But I want my baby to feel like a baby while he can. I read that human babies are funny. That a baby deer can hear a rustle in the grass and it will spook them. A human mother can nurse her baby in the middle of a sawmill, and if the mother’s calm the baby won’t notice a thing.
I want to stay “shallow” at this stage of my motherhood. Ds is 2. He’s a mellow fellow.

I also don’t want the narrow existence of cutting off family members just because they’re bugging me. I have a long distance cell-phone relationship with her. When she puts me through the emotional wringer then for a short period of time (hours at least) my personality changes from the inner turmoil she’s digging at relentlessly. I lose my patience with my family, ds & dh. It’s not fair.
I wish I was evolved enough to be able to “snap” back and forth between meeting mom on her level for a good heartfelt healing, then back to ds level to be his “mom”. I can’t. The only way this will work is if my mom respects my right to shallow relationship with her for now.

I’m going to post another excerpt from what my dad wrote in his letter. It’s a powerful tool IMO. He’s telling me that working out our adult relationship with our parents is difficult work, it takes intentional effort and work. But he say’s it’s worth it. The letter is stuff he learned while fighting for a healthy adult relationship with his parents. He made the letter for me as “wisdom”. Trying to help me heal my relationship with my mom.

As for the direction of this thread, well. I trust the ap mothers to help me refine my understanding of this issue, point out any weak spots in the method. Add supplementary techniques to use in my effort to “normalize” my adult relationship with my psychotic loveable mom. Also I’m sure I’m not the only one with these issues. So, who knows? Talking it out in public like this could help a lot of families.

[Encinalien]

*letter excerpt*
"Like I said, it's hard to set those limits - it's hard to keep those limits - and it's hard to communicate those limits. We survived, you and I; I'll pray you and your mom and sisters can, too!

It's like raising ds in a lot of ways... if you're hoping for healing in your relationship with your mom, it will take a lot of patience and a lot of gentle correction of her misunderstandings.

Also, you need to stay intentional about your own internal work. You need to keep searching your heart and your mind to disconnect all the triggers that you and she have set up over the years. One of the things I had to work through with my parents was the realization that the "mom and dad in my head" were not the same people as the mom and dad who live in Tampa - the head-parents are gross and unfair distortions of the real-parents, and it's not fair of me to blame the real folk for the chatter of the head folk.

Obviously, the real folk are a problem in and of themselves, but it's still a distinction that needs to be paid attention to."

[Miss Information]

I think it's a complicated mix you have of love, loyalty, responsibility you might feel knowing she suffers, a vision of "what ought to be" but isn't.

I could never sit idly by while my mother wrecked her life, my siblings' lives, by making dumb choices, or saying terrible things to others, even though she hurt me and I should have walked away from the family long ago.

I spent many years being the scapegoat, and then afterwards being a rescuer. But the last year or so has been relatively uneventful. My mom gave up a lot of her crap.

I think the approach your dad used has the elements of "transactional analysis" in it. I can't seem to find the email I was looking for where I discussed this with someone recently, but it did talk about how to use phrases that don't escalate the fights. I mean, of course, people could try, but based on the responses you give, it doesn't go anywhere.

I will keep looking to show you exactly what I mean.

[Miss Information]

Oh, wait, here it is, the Karpman Drama Triangle - where two people in an argument takes on any one of three positions - the victim, the persecutor and the rescuer. And they can change positions within the same argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

It has it's foundation in transactional analysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

[Encinalien]

according to the Transactional wiki link I'm afraid I'm being guilty of "redefining" and she's "discounting". like my dad said the "mom" who lives in my head is an ugly and unfair distortion of my mom who lives in Florida.
And that's really what's hurting me so much. the "Discounting means to take something as worth less than it is. " part. I mean I want to talk to her on the phone every day. Tell her what my son's doing, asking her what my nephew's doing. Tell her how dh is, ask her how work is... but she wants me to have to treat her and my sisters as a "package deal" I want to talk to my sister as my sister, to my mother as my mother, to my grandmother as my grandmother. she wants to dictate the script for these other relationships for me. I'm just like can we leave everybody else out of our relationship togeather and just me and you worry about our relationship with each other. and can we please keep it light and happy.
When I talk to my sister I want to make a relationship with her, just me and her. Not as "mom's daughters" like mom's pushing for. Mom was so much nicer before the girls moved back in, now she's over stressed. over-worked. underappreciated. losing her free-time. girls night out, really losing all her single friends that were making her a better person to be around and reverting to a ugly personality i just can't deal with. I don't want to dump her. I don't know how to help her. She won't accept help outside of the help she "needs" according to her script she wrote in her head.

I know I'm not the first grown woman to go through this in developing a healthy adult relationship with my mother. Obviously not, because my dad, Miss Information, and Maria Madly came through with some good reasearch and BTDT advice. It is an endevor worthy of the effort IMO. not quite as worthy as mothering, but close to it probably.

[Encinalien]

oops sorry, wanted to clarify. She's discounting that I'm even willing and trying to make her a place in my life and even want a relationship with her, just because i'm not willing to let her define the perameters of the relationship because she has repeatedly abused the priveledge and doesn't use her power over me wisely.

editing to add:
more wisdom from Mrs. Information's link:
"Let's You and Him Fight" (staging a love triangle)
What a phrase ! let's you and him fight ROFL

i might look for that book they referenced "Games People Play" by Eric Berne

"The only antidote or escape from the Drama Triangle publicly endorsed by Stephen Karpman is TED* (*The Empowerment Dynamic), created by David Emerald. The Empowerment Dynamic has corresponding roles to each of those played out in the Drama Triangle. In TED* Victim shifts to Creator, Persecutor shifts to Challenger, and Rescuer shifts to Coach."

Really?! I have GOT to learn how to do that. Sounds like it might work.

[Shakti77]

I'm sorry, you have to deal with all these and I'm sorry your mom had a very difficult childhood.

Hugs (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hablame_today)))) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The book 'Toxic parents' might be a good read too.