Re: mothers who bully - Page 2

[Encinalien]

Oh, trust me I am so sorry for my mom. I . mmm. It's not just her awful childhood. It's her single parent motherhood I wish I could go back in time and save her from. It's that she's 50 + and still alone (except for my sisters who really aren't doing her any good right now-or ever.) It's that she can't have a life of her own even now, even now that her kids are raised, she did her job, this should be her time for herself, if not with a partner to enjoy it with, at least some time for herself.
I just, there's no healthy way I can see to befriend her now. we were starting to form a healthy bond before my sisters moved back in. Now she has reverted to assuming a charachter that I have a bad history with and I liked the "adult mom" I was bonding with before my sisters moved back in. She was just getting to be herself and changing for the better.
Granted, the one sister truly needed help. She is a new single mother by a worthless low-life. That's fine. But that's enough "problems" to solve. and she's enough of a headache (needs thereapy, acts terrible) Did I already put in here how my 25 year old sister treats my mother? My mother has complained so many times to me about my sister being a slob, not cleaning up, having to be told to clean her room at 25. Mom says "I have to go to work all day and come home and fight with her to clean her room." I saw it while I was visiting. I tried to tell my sister "you know, grown ups clean the houses their kids live in. Mom works. You don't. You should cook and clean." Her response? "i'm better than a housewife. I went to college." (ouch) and- wrong. Even when your business gets going Mrs. Smarty Pants- you're still the mother. You still have to cook and clean. Mom got mad at me over this for "picking a fight with my sister" (she scolded me like a child. After she had begged me for months to talk to my sister about it because she wouldn't listen to her. oops. just like when we were kids)

Alright, what I can say she's doing wrong right now, without a shadow of a doubt. She pretty much had to take the 25 year old in, new baby, PPD, single parent, nowhere to go. When I baked off because I tried to make it clear I'm unwilling to revert to our childhood roles. I'm a mother. I'm a wife. Really you should help the 25 year old grow up instead of trying to force me back into the insanity. Alright. when I became too difficult to "suck-in" she flew the 21 year old sister back from Puerto Rico to "help her get on her feet". The 21 year old is not ready to get on her feet yet. She's doing the wild thing. Mom knows she's using her. I just refused to act like a baby so mom brought back one that would. Now mom's losing the few adult friends that she had to make time to "mother" two grown women who want the roles of privelaged, irrational, tantrum throwing when they don't get their way, spoiled teenagers. The 25 year old needs a place to stay, but is there a healthier dynamic that doesn't sound like what I described. And the twenty one year old. She's playing them. They know it. Last time she was home she talked mom (ex-alcoholic) into having a Margarita, then ditched mom at the bar to go home with a group of guys that were hitting on her. Mom finally answered the phone four days later, she had been drunk for four days. I took the twenty-one year old in. she stole $250 and left. In the last two years she's got married. Left the guy. Joined the army. Got discharged. Ran away to puerto rico. That's where mom just flew her back from. Mom says "she probably just used me for a plane ticket for herself and her boyfriend. she probably won't stay long." Adn yet she's praying they'll staty so she can play "mother" dysfunctional "pretend "mother'.. I swear it's a totally different charachter than the woman two years ago with the house to herself and her own life to live. Now if I don't assume the charachter as one of "her girls" which took so much, so much therapy and personal growth to evolve from. She's "mad at me".

[Encinalien]

Shakti, thanks for the (((((HUGE HUGS)))))
if you've already read "toxic parents" could you outline a few of the strategies, tell me a little bit about what topics the book covers? I've heard the title mentioned here. It sounds applicable to the situation.

[SuzyLee]

I kind of do this with my MIL (in person usually- I don't talk on the phone with her). She talks and talks and talks, and I just sit there peacefully and usually knit (something to keep my hands and mind a little busy while still "listening to her") and let her get it all out. Adding in the knitting really helped me- I hated just sitting there and listening but if I am knitting at the same time, I feel like I am making progress on something, and I can remain peaceful instead of being resentful that I have to listen to all this crap.

[Encinalien]

http://www.whakate.com/lead-articles...-to-escape-it/

"the drama triangle" found this page following another link off one of the pages upthread

"By definition, a drama triangle is a model of dysfunctional social interaction between three roles: the victim, the saviour (or rescuer) and the aggressor (or persecutor.)

Victims: Victims see themselves as completely at the mercy of forces beyond their control. They don’t take responsibility for their actions and don’t think they have the power to change themselves or their situations. They may be characterised by complaining, incompetence, and helplessness. A typical victim statement is: “I can’t do anything right. No matter what I try, nothing seems to work.”
Saviours: Saviours see themselves as doing more than their share of work to help out “victims.” They often seek these victims out though, trying to offer them short-term solutions, while neglecting their own problems. They may be characterised by hidden anger, tiredness, resentment and tactical use of guilt. Saviours appear the most positive of the three roles, but their help is not genuine: They want to be needed. This can come out in resentful statements: “I’m always there for you, but I can’t keep doing it. Everyone wants me to take care of them and I’m tired.”
Aggressors: Aggressors blame victims for being weak and saviours for babying and encouraging victims without offering a solution to either of their problems. Aggressors are often over-critical and quick to find fault. They can be characterised by a judgmental or domineering personality, which is often just the way they protect themselves from their own insecurities. They may say something like “Yeah, I’m being a jerk, but that’s how the world is. You need to be tough to survive.”
These roles are not fixed for any person. While someone may find themselves participating more frequently as one or the other, the nature of the triangle requires that the roles cycle through all players in a certain exchange. For example, the saviour pushed too hard by the aggressor may become the victim; the former victim may then come to the rescue of the previous saviour… "

I like KISS answers. I hope this works.

Yeah, I'm bad. I've started holding the phone away from my ear, putting it on my shoulder to muffle it. Just to avoid it. Umm... that's why I'm researching a better soulution than what I've been doing. Because now mom's pushing heavily for complience. she want me and ds to visit her house every four months she calls with another reason we "have to go" or we don't love her. I would if it was mellow. so just letting her "rant" isn't cutting it anymore. but maybe now, thanks to asking for help, I'm starting to see what the "game " is. so i can know how to stop her from doing it to me.

[MariaMadly]

Originally Posted by SuzyLee

I kind of do this with my MIL (in person usually- I don't talk on the phone with her). She talks and talks and talks, and I just sit there peacefully and usually knit (something to keep my hands and mind a little busy while still "listening to her") and let her get it all out. Adding in the knitting really helped me- I hated just sitting there and listening but if I am knitting at the same time, I feel like I am making progress on something, and I can remain peaceful instead of being resentful that I have to listen to all this crap.

Thank you!!! You just saved me the next time I have to listen to MIL!

[Gwendolyn's babies]

Originally Posted by hablame_today

When your mom goes off on a rant on the phone, don't answer - either out loud or in your head.
When she's talking, don't agree. Don't disagree. Don't grunt. Just let her talk her own energy out.

When she stops and asks specific questions, pause. Take a deep breath. Make sure you're clear - mentally, emotionally, spiritually. She'll complain about that, and might start into another rant about your pause or whatever -

- at which point you remain silent (ignore or analyze, whichever works internally for whatever she's dishing.)

Eventually, she'll want a reply. So think clearly, calmly, and answer softly, slowly, lovingly, gracefully. Use short clear sentences about yourself - don't talk about her. If your answer is "I can't let your emotional crap infect me anymore," phrase it something like "I'm working on becoming calm and centered and focused."

This is really good advice.

[Encinalien]

Clearly, calmly, softly, slowly, gracefully

that's how I want to always be.

[hotmamacita]

I have more to add but THE WOUNDED HEART by Dan ALlendar (Navpress) and BOLD LOVE (navpress) have helped me a lot in dealing with situations like yours.

[Encinalien]

Bold Love.

I love the title.
I'll be back tomorrow. Goodnite

[madis81]

Originally Posted by hablame_today

http://www.whakate.com/lead-articles...-to-escape-it/

"the drama triangle" found this page following another link off one of the pages upthread

"By definition, a drama triangle is a model of dysfunctional social interaction between three roles: the victim, the saviour (or rescuer) and the aggressor (or persecutor.)

Victims: Victims see themselves as completely at the mercy of forces beyond their control. They don’t take responsibility for their actions and don’t think they have the power to change themselves or their situations. They may be characterised by complaining, incompetence, and helplessness. A typical victim statement is: “I can’t do anything right. No matter what I try, nothing seems to work.”
Saviours: Saviours see themselves as doing more than their share of work to help out “victims.” They often seek these victims out though, trying to offer them short-term solutions, while neglecting their own problems. They may be characterised by hidden anger, tiredness, resentment and tactical use of guilt. Saviours appear the most positive of the three roles, but their help is not genuine: They want to be needed. This can come out in resentful statements: “I’m always there for you, but I can’t keep doing it. Everyone wants me to take care of them and I’m tired.”
Aggressors: Aggressors blame victims for being weak and saviours for babying and encouraging victims without offering a solution to either of their problems. Aggressors are often over-critical and quick to find fault. They can be characterised by a judgmental or domineering personality, which is often just the way they protect themselves from their own insecurities. They may say something like “Yeah, I’m being a jerk, but that’s how the world is. You need to be tough to survive.”
These roles are not fixed for any person. While someone may find themselves participating more frequently as one or the other, the nature of the triangle requires that the roles cycle through all players in a certain exchange. For example, the saviour pushed too hard by the aggressor may become the victim; the former victim may then come to the rescue of the previous saviour… "

Wow, this really hit home. Sounds just like my family. Good news is, that using the method (didn't know it existed, but dh encourages it) your dad sent you, my family doesn't really call me anymore. We have a happy, superficial relationship. We get together now and then. For the most part, they know I won't listen to their crap.

It sounds like you have a DH that is very loving and supportive. What a difference that support makes!

[Encinalien]

Honestly, that's kind of what I want. Well. It's not that I don't want them to call at all. But I think once a year visits makes you a pretty close family still. But I'm not willing for once every four months.

I kind of want us to all have our own lives and share them a little with each other. But mom's pushing for an unhealthy (to me) undesirable "forced" closeness. That my sisters are humoring her because they're using her. They're not doing her any real favors.

I still want the phone calls. I think. I've been reading other threads here that it's unproductive "wishful thinking" to think that other people (parents) will change just because we've turned a corner in our lives and have found a better life.

Still I wander if I can grasp the understanding, research the dynamics... If I can find a way to have a healthy relationship. Like I said, copying the sophicated vibe of my yoga teacher and other suave adults I've met in my life I was doing so good involving my mom in my life and presenting myself as a cool, centered, collected grown woman.

With both of my sisters in the house it's like the equilbrium shifted. I think this "games people play" went a long way twords explaining what just happened, what went wrong. (if you ask them it's because I'm being stubborn and jealous and I just don't want to be a part of "their" family). If you read what I've wrote here you'll know that in my head that is so far from the truth.

They say that everytime I don't want to participate in a particular dynamic. I couldn't put my finger on it before. But when they start acting a certain way I beg them to leave me out of it. That it's crazy. That I need to stay "shallow". That it makes me sick. (at least the therapy defined for me what "sick" looks like). But I guess you could see if that was the best I could explain it to them why they didn't understand.

Now I know it's a mind game- victim, savior, persecutor- the drama triangle.

Hey I have used the word "drama" so many times to describe what I was avoiding. Which, of course, they take as an insult. And another good reason not to take me seriously about this.
Even just knowing more about it like this should help me stay objective. I'm sure there's a long way to go and a lot more work to do. But I really feel like we're going the right way.

LoL. What have they said at MDC! Disciplining our kids gently involves a whole lot more disciplining of ourselves than them. Guess the same thing goes for healing our mother's craziness.

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by hablame_today

Now I know it's a mind game- victim, savior, persecutor- the drama triangle.

Hey I have used the word "drama" so many times to describe what I was avoiding. Which, of course, they take as an insult. And another good reason not to take me seriously about this.
Even just knowing more about it like this should help me stay objective. I'm sure there's a long way to go and a lot more work to do. But I really feel like we're going the right way.

LoL. What have they said at MDC! Disciplining our kids gently involves a whole lot more disciplining of ourselves than them. Guess the same thing goes for healing our mother's craziness.

And of course, since you won't fit into the drama anymore, you are being hassled for your lack of cooperation.

It gets easier over time and you remain consistent with your goals.

My family shed a lot of their drama. As we got into our late 30s and early 40s, and health issues have started to crop up for my siblings and I, we fight a whole lot less than when we were younger and felt more invincible. It doesn't always work out like that, but after spending a good 35+ years being dysfunctional and having kids of our own who needed us more than we needed to participate in the family drama, we stopped the games we played.

I swear, some people cause trouble because they are simply BORED and can't think of better uses for their time. No, I know it's more complex than that, but sometimes I wonder that people just don't fall into those roles because they feel comfy - like an old worn sweater.

I also think, perhaps, the dysfunctional mind gets used to the (negative) stimulation, and it causes a reaction similar to addicts - they get an adrenaline rush from the stress drama causes. And even in the absence of drama, some "stress addicts" try to create it in other areas of their lives, or actually re-creating the original stress (by moving in back home and continuing the old patterns of childhood). It's a thrill/conflict seeking behavior they crave.

Keep yourself centered and removed from it. Yes, if 4 times a year is too much, then make it once a year.

You have your own family now to take care of, you don't need to continue to fix your mother's problems, if you try, you will be hurt and disappointed.

[lorelei]

I think I have a lot in common with both you and your mother, so I'm going to offer what's been working for me.


I have spent over a year of not talking to my mom at all, no contact whatsoever. I kept stating to her my boundaries, and she kept trampling them. She would TALK over me to reprimand my children when I was already dealing with them. She would show up unannounced at my house whenever she felt like and expect to be invited in, even if it was my kid's nap time or whatever. She has no respect for me, or the parenting relationship I have with my kids. I told her that if she couldn't respect my rules, that I would have to take a time out from our relationship.

This continued for nearly 2 years. I finally called her one day because I found out I was expecting our 3rd child, and felt it would be cruel for her to hear from other family rather than me.

She continues to try her dysfunction and guilt tripping and all that toxic garbage. But we've since moved across the country, and I return her (many!) calls and emails when I feel like it. Generally she's only actually calling so she can talk to my kids. Which is pretty messed up to my mind- she cares more for her grandkids than her own daughter. But whatever- that's her problem.

I keep calls short, and when she starts guilt tripping, nagging, or bragging, I cut her off and end the call. She left me multiple messages over 1 week and emailed "concerned that we were ok, since she didn't hear from us!" to brag that her 70+ new husband is taking her for a month to Europe. Did I want her to email me the itinerary. Um.. why!? She sees me and my kids only as an accessory to be put upon and showed around when she likes.

So I keep contact to a minimum, and on my terms. Oh, and she's moved in with us on 3 separate occasions, after she and my dirtbag dad got divorced. And I'm the kid who never got anything but always gave. My siblings only called her when they needed money! They didn't want to deal with her dysfunction or try to help her grow as a person, just keep the checks coming, thank you very much.

So for the sake of your sanity, and the mental well-being of your family, I would say that you should try to put yourself and your family ahead of your mom's needs. She's a grown up woman, and needs to start being responsible for herself. It sounds like a very codependent relationship you two have, and I know you are working to fix that.

My guess is that she is lonely, doesn't know how to be happy on her own, and is nagging haranguing you on the phone because she doesn't know how to relate to you on a healthy level. That's all she knows, so that's the pattern she continues. And my guess is that she will likely continue to do so, until she is forced to come to the realization that that's just not going to work with you, anymore. Eventually, if every time she starts trampling your boundaries, and you firmly but gently disallow it, she will get the picture. She's been trained in dysfunctional ways to relate- and now you need to teach her some new tricks in the interpersonal relationships department.

You can do it. Stay strong, speak gently, but stand firm by your decisions. When negative things try to interfere with your happiness and well-being and that of your family, then it is your duty to yourself and your family to deflect those negative things.

She's a grown up, and actually CAN take care of herself. My guess is that once she gains some self-sufficiency and the sense of self worth which will accompany that, she will be able to find more productive ways to spend her time than nagging and berating you! Maybe you could suggest some group activities or hobbies for her to get involved with. Does her church have any sort of social events? How about volunteering? It might do her good to stop feeling like a victim and lashing out at people over the hard time's she's had- and instead focus her energy on helping someone else- be it a person or animal.

Good luck mama, and keep your chin up. You'll get there eventually!

[lorelei]

Sorry, that was really long, not trying to divert your thread!