Natural consequence for physical aggression towards baby bro

[flower01]

We've honestly not done much "disciplining" our 2 1/2 year old DD aside from distraction or just removing her from the situation. But, with new baby brother & the age I guess, we have some new issues. The biggest problem is the way she treats baby brother. She is really sweet most of the time, but she gets too aggressive (even if she's not trying to be mean). She loves giving him hugs and kisses, but that can lead to her smothering him, or squeezing him or smashing her head against his. We try to be really patient with her and calm, but often when we tell her she needs to give him a break or if we remind her to be gentle, she'll immediately get more aggressive. It gets to the point wear we are fighting her off of him. I've been holding the baby and practically screaming for her to get off because she has him pinned against me. DH and I have never over-reacted about her behavior until now, but honestly i think we get scared that she's really going to hurt him. We started doing time-outs, but that's really not working. She gets SO upset and really doesn't seem to be making the connection between her behavior and the timeout. We talk about it, but the "threat" of timeout doesn't seem to have any effect even though she cries hysterically and begs to come out when we make her sit by herself. We never wanted to use timeouts and they usually only last a minute, but we are at a loss.

[Shakti77]

I think she wants to play and enjoy the new baby [like we all do]. I mean, you and your husband take turns holding him and cuddling him and rocking him... maybe this is her way of taking a turn?

Maybe you guys could show her how to be gentle, not telling her, but showing her. Show her how to hold the baby, when sitting, et al and how to tell a story to the baby with a puppet etc..

Timeouts aren't the right thing to get her to understand that she could be a lot more gentle with the baby. But then I don't know what else you could do.

Oh! wait.. Not exactly the same thing, but my DD of 3 yrs was suddenly kissing her cousins and friends aggressively to show her affection. It was hard to make her stop, but then we worked out a solution that she could give one kiss first thing in the morning and before going to bed. Maybe you could work out a solution like that when it is family kissing time and everybody [dad, mom, sister and maybe even a doll?] gets to kiss the baby and the sister and then no more kissing until bed time.

[flower01]

Originally Posted by Shakti77

I think she wants to play and enjoy the new baby [like we all do]. I mean, you and your husband take turns holding him and cuddling him and rocking him... maybe this is her way of taking a turn?

Maybe you guys could show her how to be gentle, not telling her, but showing her. Show her how to hold the baby, when sitting, et al and how to tell a story to the baby with a puppet etc..

Timeouts aren't the right thing to get her to understand that she could be a lot more gentle with the baby. But then I don't know what else you could do.

Oh! wait.. Not exactly the same thing, but my DD of 3 yrs was suddenly kissing her cousins and friends aggressively to show her affection. It was hard to make her stop, but then we worked out a solution that she could give one kiss first thing in the morning and before going to bed. Maybe you could work out a solution like that when it is family kissing time and everybody [dad, mom, sister and maybe even a doll?] gets to kiss the baby and the sister and then no more kissing until bed time.

We definitely "show" her how to be gentle and she gets LOTS of cuddle time with the baby. I know she just loves him - she says it all the time, but it's like she gets so excited and then when we try to gently remove her, she tightens her grip - literally.

I like the idea of what you did with your DD, except we do give the baby kisses and little hugs all day and i'm fine with that. So I don't really want to set specific times for hugs & kisses. I just want her to know that when we say it's time to stop, she needs to stop and not get violent.

[RunnerMommy]

We have been struggling with this a lot too so I know what you are going through! Its so hard because you want the older child to be able to show affection and play with the younger one, but sometimes it's just not something they are capable of at 2.5. What I have been doing as a "natural consequence" is just picking the baby up/taking him to another room calmly (easier said than done when he's just been tackled to the ground by his older brother ). DS1 knows that he can play with his brother, but if things get too rough DS2 needs to leave for his own safety. It seems to work pretty well- much better than yelling, or trying to have a "teaching moment" and talk about it. But it still happens on a daily basis. I've given up trying to stop the behavior and changed the focus to dealing with it in a calm way until this phase is over.

[flower01]

Originally Posted by RunnerMommy

I've given up trying to stop the behavior and changed the focus to dealing with it in a calm way until this phase is over.

Ok, that's fair. Sometimes I need a reminder that DD just isn't mature enough to do what i'm expecting.

[ZeezMom]

NAK
I second the leaving-the-room response. I have a 20-mo & a 7-wk old. sometimes the 20-mo loves a little too hard & sometimes I suspect it's a way for him to get attention, too. I leave the room & close the door behind me (reverse time out, if you will). I wait a minute or two & then open the door, get down to his level, make him look me in the eyes. (I feel this is key for us.) Once he calms down enough to give me eye contact I say: "TOUCH GENTLY. NO HITTING/SQUEEZING/SCRATCHING. TOUCH NICELY." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sometimes I will also make him do it right then & there ("Show me touch nicely.") If I think he can handle it & will listen. It's worse when he's tired so I try to keep that in mind.

[flower01]

Originally Posted by ZeezMom

NAK
I second the leaving-the-room response. I have a 20-mo & a 7-wk old. sometimes the 20-mo loves a little too hard & sometimes I suspect it's a way for him to get attention, too. I leave the room & close the door behind me (reverse time out, if you will). I wait a minute or two & then open the door, get down to his level, make him look me in the eyes. (I feel this is key for us.) Once he calms down enough to give me eye contact I say: "TOUCH GENTLY. NO HITTING/SQUEEZING/SCRATCHING. TOUCH NICELY." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sometimes I will also make him do it right then & there ("Show me touch nicely.") If I think he can handle it & will listen. It's worse when he's tired so I try to keep that in mind.

I could never do this with my daughter. Leaving the room and closing the door is the surest way to get my daughter into a screaming fit. That would be WAY worse than a timeout.

[Kikelet]

Originally Posted by flower01

I could never do this with my daughter. Leaving the room and closing the door is the surest way to get my daughter into a screaming fit. That would be WAY worse than a timeout.

I don't mean to sound rude in any way whatsoever, but maybe in this situation she really does need to learn that hurting the baby is not ok at all, and if you are totally calm and don't provide an alternative for her behavior, she might not be getting it? Maybe give her two choices, either you are gentle with baby, or you don't get to touch baby. If she persists, then she doesn't get to sit with you. Or if your DD is starting to come near you and the baby you can tell her each time, remember baby likes it when you are gentle, and sort of cue her in to the appropriate behavior before she does something that might hurt the baby. She might just get so excited she forgets, and if you can remind her beforehand it might help. I did this with my friend's children, infant and 2.5 year old and it worked really well. The older one definitely got upset when he couldn't love on the baby, but I told him that what he was doing was hurting the baby and he had to stop until he could be gentle again. I never had to raise my voice or be harsh to get the message across, just consistent.

I think in the case of not wanting to use time outs, that's really hard to do if it's just you and the little ones at home *and* in a specific situation where you can't leave the baby to distract DD.. I understand that time outs aren't appealing if you use them for every single thing your child does wrong, but in some situations they are helpful. I'm still learning about these things myself, and I don't plan on doing the time out thing very often.. I do believe, however, that not all situations are the same and some require different parenting techniques. I hope you can figure out something that works and feels comfortable for you.

[Ellien C]

I think this calls for what someone once described as "Get-off-your-butt" parenting. You just pick her up or pick the baby up and remove them. Baby goes in the high chair, basinet - whatever. And you tell 2-year old it's time for a new activity.

I think what you are also looking for are some imposed consequences, rather than natural consequences. Natural consequences are what happens when you don't do anything.

Other ideas I've heard are the "one-finger" touch rule/reminder for fragiles.

[abharrington]

in our home it IS the natural consequence that if someone (ANYONE) is hurting my new baby they will have no choice but to stop. i would pick the baby up and walk away...down the hall or to another room. if closing the door is especially painful, i see no need to do that. but i would make sure dd knows her behavior is unacceptable, tantrum - ensuing or not. thankfully we never really this issue with dd. she was 20 mo when ds was born. she really did/does enjoy modeling with her baby dolls. she often feeds them when i feed ds, etc.

[abharrington]

Originally Posted by flower01

I've been holding the baby and practically screaming for her to get off because she has him pinned against me. DH and I have never over-reacted about her behavior until now, but honestly i think we get scared that she's really going to hurt him.

i would not call that overreacting...i would call that protecting a newborn.

[sapphire_chan]

Also talk to her about how to tell what the baby is feeling. At 21/2 she might not even realize that crying means he's sad or that turning red means he can't breathe.

And definitely demonstrate touch gently and ask her to show you "touch gently" on a doll. Give her a chance to learn and to show that she's learned.

Read "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline". It's got a great set of analogies about giving instructions to kids. Like just saying "touch gently" to a kid is like having a boss who tells you "fill this form out correctly next time" and next time just says "fill this form out correctly next time" and again and again until you're fired with no idea what was wrong with how you were completing the form.

[Mountaingirl79]

Originally Posted by Ellien C

I think this calls for what someone once described as "Get-off-your-butt" parenting. You just pick her up or pick the baby up and remove them. Baby goes in the high chair, basinet - whatever. And you tell 2-year old it's time for a new activity.

I think what you are also looking for are some imposed consequences, rather than natural consequences. Natural consequences are what happens when you don't do anything.

Other ideas I've heard are the "one-finger" touch rule/reminder for fragiles.

I completely agree.

[Mountaingirl79]

Originally Posted by flower01

I could never do this with my daughter. Leaving the room and closing the door is the surest way to get my daughter into a screaming fit. That would be WAY worse than a timeout.

You dont have to close the door but if you just calmly stand up and walk away with the baby and change the situation, so what if she cries for a minute or two? She will learn that hitting baby=no play/mommy ends the activity..

I promise you, that will work way better than time out..

[sgmom]

It sounds like she might be competing for attention, by being overly affectionate to the baby. Being asked (or told) to stop only makes her want to squeeze harder. It could also be that although she loves her new baby brother, she's feeling kind of jealous that he gets so much attention, so she's trying to make herself be included.

Have you tried asking her for help with baby duties (pass me the diaper, baby needs a blanket, etc), and spending one on one time with her when baby is sleeping?

Discipline or punishment is definitely not the way to handle this, in my opinion.

[One_Girl]

Are you saying you punish her for giving her brother hugs and kisses by isolating her and ignoring her when she cries for you? I want to clarify because that is what I got from your post but that doesn't seem like it could be right. What happens before she hugs the baby? Does she seem to need a hug? Could you side track her by suggesting that she get a book to read or by putting the baby down and cuddling with her for a while?