Originally Posted by loraxc
I have two kids. One of them (she has always been quirky) did not pick up social graces till at least 4 1/2 (and even now she is shaky) and had to be reminded and reminded over and over again. The other is not even 2 and has picked up all of your examples effortlessly.
Kids vary. Just reminding folks that a child who doesn't immediately pipe up with "thank you" does not have good manners modeled at home.
Yep - DS1, picked all that up by 2 with modeling. DD is 3-1/2 and still needs reminded at least 50% of the time, even though it's modeled the same way for her as it was for him.
Originally Posted by paxye
What I meant is that some parents put their whole life on hold because of nap-time, or bedtime etc... they can't go out, they can't make plans at a certain hour, they can't have the phone ring, they can't do things around the house etc...
Life stops because of a sleep schedule...
I have to disagree with this, in and of itself, being a negative thing. Depending on the child, sometimes they don't just adapt and sleep wherever, and it's nothing the parent did or didn't do. It's just the way they are, and the kindest thing for everyone involved (including the people out in public who won't have to deal with a sleep deprived, melting down toddler or preschooler) was to be home for naptime and bedtime, and make sure it happened every time. Sure it was a drag for a while, but naps last what, a few years? Seems like a small price to pay for an overall improved quality of life. If you have a kid who can drop off and sleep wherever they are, great, have at it and go out as much as you want...but if you have a kid who needs a specific, familiar environment to get the sleep their body *needs*, I don't find that to be any more "child centered" (in a negative way) than feeding them when they're hungry.
Originally Posted by flapjack
I'm shocked by this thread because society as a whole is (or can be) so actively hostile towards children. The norm in most families is NOT to have a parent at home with the child every day, and when it is, there's sacrifices involved. Most families lives consist, still, of one or more parental jobs to pay the bills and finding someone to nurture the children in their absence, with a varying degree of formal experience, supervision and qualification. Our employers have a range of attitudes towards offering the flexibility needed to deal with family life, some STILL (despite everything) expecting their employees to do unpaid overtime and working 60-70 hours a week. We send them to school, which is chronically underfunded, to libraries to support their education which are frequently underfunded, and community facilities struggling to cope. We keep them in for fear of harm from traffic and strangers, and then when our children are old enough to leave the house by themselves they're treated with fear and suspicion by the other adults around them and judged harshly, because everyone knows that teenagers are criminals waiting to happen. Society is polarised into Disney crap and sophisticated adult life, especially for those on smaller incomes (look at the debate about children in restaurants), and now on top of all that parents get criticised for focussing time and attention on their children in their own homes?
: It's ridiculous. Not enough time is spent moulding our society to benefit ALL members of it, including children and the elderly, and the world would be a better place if it was.
I have to kind of agree with this. There is a "kid world" (movies, music, food, activities), and an "adult world", which occasionally come together on "family game night" - instead of there being a *family world* with offshoots of interest designed for kids and adults based on their developmental stages. This is not to say that I don't believe that both kids and adults shouldn't have things that they just do on their own, because I think they should - I just don't think that there should be so much of a divide between the two worlds.
I think one place where our society misses the mark is in developmental appropriateness and expectations in the first couple years of life - but then, it seems there is a bizarre backwards swing and expectations after preschool drop. Mainstream society goes from expecting infants to be "independent" and "self soothe" to expecting young toddlers to control their impulses, to expecting (or at least applaud the pushing towards) preschoolers to read and spell....and yet, I often see very little in the way of expectations (at least in personal responsibility) of children from 5-10 yrs old, in the way of helping around the house, being responsible for their actions, and gaining independence outside of the home. It seems like mainstream society pushes away babies when they need closeness most, and then freaks out when those babies do the expected pulling away after being pushed for years, and tries to pull them back in, instead of nuturing them when they're tiny and letting them spread their wings as they get older. I see a lot of making excuses for why kids act in negative ways, but not a lot of taking responsibility for it (by the parents or kid themselves) or doing anything about it (like getting to the core reasons). I'm not suggesting harsh punishments, or for kids acting like robots or being seen and not heard, I'm just for people admitting when they did something they shouldn't have, and trying to make amends instead of blaming something or someone else.
Another observation of an (IMO) negative aspect of "child centered" society is the 'preshus angel snowflake' syndrome. There is a significant portion of the population that believes that everything their child does is precious and precocious and deserving of attention and praise, and that striving to set yourself apart as the best at something/everything is a goal. It's a sense of entitlement that seems to be increasing, and it bugs the crap out of me. That's the part of child centered society that bothers me - pushing, driving, focusing so much on kids "doing something" that entire industries are built out of it, be it athletic, artistic, or academic. Traveling sports teams for young children, toddler beauty pageants, small kids training for dance competition groups, "your baby can read" - it's insanity IMO...Doing classes because they are a fun way to get out during the day, and your kid enjoys them, that's great - doing classes to get your kid ready for the next step in being the awesomest X ever? Meh. I think THAT kind of child centeredness can be problematic. There's nothing wrong with striving and wanting to achieve YOUR personal best, and doing activities that you enjoy - that's an admirable goal and will lead to a lot of long term life satisfaction, IMO...but always wanting to be THE best, well, that's a setup for disappointment for the actual, real world that most of us live in IMO (reality show dance/singing auditions, anyone?). I don't think people should be complacent, or settle, but the focus on everything being super special and awesome is just a little wearing on me sometimes. I don't remember where I heard it originally, but I love the saying: Sometimes "good enough" is good enough.
So those are some negative "child centered" aspects of society I see. I'd love to see society become more *people* centered, and less stuff
centered....I think a lot
of the adult/child dichotomy would go away if that started to happen.
I don't yearn for the good old days because they really weren't so good in many ways....but we seem to have dropped some pretty good things about those days while moving forward in other important