Tell me about the Divine Liturgy - Eastern Catholic/Orthodox

[xekomaya]

I'm going to be going to a Byzantine Catholic Church this Sunday for the first time. Can anyone give me some pointers? Honestly I'm completely ignorant on all things Eastern either Catholic or Orthodox and don't know what variations may be between them.

Can you tell me what to do when entering an Eastern Rite Church? I know veneration of the Icons is customary, but how specifically?

Kneeling is not allowed right? How do you properly acknowledge entering/leaving the Church? Is there anything to know about having a rowdy toddler?

I won't be receiving Communion this week, but I did read the description on their website. We may end up attending this Church long term so hopefully I'll get my butt to Confession and receive there next week..

Any help, videos, websites at all would be appreciated

[Tradd]

No kneeling on Sundays, although in some Orthodox parishes, you will find some people kneeling briefly (actually doing a prostration) during the Epiclesis.

This article by Frederica Mathewes-Green (an Antiochian Orthodox priest's wife - they're converts) might help:
http://www.frederica.com/12-things/

To venerate an icon: cross yourself, bow, kiss the icon. Don't kiss the face! Best to kiss a hand or the scroll the saint is holding or feet. If you're really not sure, just kiss a bottom corner, lol! To get more exact, cross yourself, while bowing low twice, kiss icon, step back a bit, bow and cross yourself again.

Wearing lipstick to church is not a good idea to all the kissing (of icons) going on!

When you do take Communion, do NOT cross yourself right before or after receiving while at the chalice. I've seen people almost accidentally knock the chalice out of the priest's hands! Wait to cross yourself until you're well away from the chalice!

When you come into church, at least in my Orthodox parish (OCA), you cross yourself. When leaving, face the altar, cross yourself again, then turn to go.

If you have to cross in front of the altar, you don't genuflect like in a Latin Rite Catholic parish (at least that's how they did it when I was growing up). You stop briefly, and bow towards the altar while crossing yourself.

It's just fine to take a rowdy kidlet out, but it's considered rude for anyone to enter the church while the priest is outside the altar censing around the church and/or the iconostasis, while the Gospel/Epistle are being read, or during the Anaphora (Eucharistic prayer). Coming in and standing at the very back of the nave seems to be OK, but marching up to the front of the church is not.

And don't forget the sign of the Cross is made differently! The article I linked to explains it.

This also has a good, basic explanation of the Divine Liturgy (some small things may be different where you attend) - scroll down to see the linked sections (has lots of photos, too!):

http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?S...vine%20Liturgy

Enjoy! Let us know how it goes.

[Tradd]

Actually, leaving the church at the points I mentioned is also not considered good church etiquette, but I'd consider taking a rowdy kid out to be OK.

If you anticipate having to go in and out a lot with your lo, you might consider sitting at the back.

Oh, and the Divine Liturgy tends to last longer than your average Latin Rite Mass. Every regular Orthodox Divine Liturgy I've attended goes at least 1:30, maybe even 1:45 if there are a lot of communicants. The average Latin Rite Mass is 60 minutes.

ETA: Everything I've described is the Orthodox manner of doing things. Byzantine Rite Catholics could well do them differently. Your best bet is to just pay attention to what those around you are doing.

[xekomaya]

Thank you so much. That is all incredibly helpful. I will definitely keep an eye and do what others do but it will be easier having an idea to look for.

I will report back tomorrow, maybe even have some more questions. Looks like my husband and rowdy toddler might not be coming with me which is an issue for a whole 'nother thread. I'm still trying to decide whether to put my foot down.

Oh and our Traditinal Latin Mass is an hour and a half actually. It is only the new Mass that is shorter

thanks!

[Tradd]

XM, I didn't know you've been attending TLM. I only put in the caveat about th length of the Divine Liturgy because many NO Catholics I know (friends, coworkers, family) complain very bitterly when Mass goes a second over one hour. One person even said the amount of time I'm in church weekly makes her ill to even contemplate doing that herself - and this is someone who goes to Mass weekly!

[lilyka]

We kneel every sunday except after Pascha. I don't know why (i know, terrible) but we do. I think if we did not have pews it would be a protration....I still just do what what priests wife does....

wear comfortable shoes, go easy on lipstick and perfume (kissing and people want to smell the inscence), but bring your best.

talk to the priest before recieving communion, but if someone hands you a chunck of bread don't be alarmed. its ok.

feel free to participate as much or as little as you want except for communion.

rowdey toddlers vary by parish. in ours a lot os tolerated so long as you are trying to teach them. if you are letting them run amuk not so much tolerance. if you are willing to let someone scoop them up and start teaching them then you are excused but if you let the run around and then get ticked off when someone interferes better to take them out. So, there is a lot of patience for children who are learning to participate, or parents who are at least working on getting them through the service but if your kids is just running around being a disturbance for no good reasons or because you are checked out or feel they should have free range and people just need to be more tolerant of children, you will be asked to take them out. someone might be willing to take them out for you but if you are the type to get offended by this better to stay on top of it. squirrly toddlers get passed all over the place. Even my children don't think twice of grabbing up a toddler who wanders by them or fishing them out from under the pew and handing them back to their mother.

the general rule I taught my children is that they must stand anytime the alter boys come out and any time we must stand is a time we may not enter or leave the nave (they have allergies and this is an old building. they leave often to blow their nose. they also go up to sing in the choir once their godmothers get there) as well as any time they hear the censor bells. Other than that there are plenty of ways to help your baby participate. Start by lighting candles and praying. let him take a good hard look, help him cross himself, say a prayer etc. the let the veneration commence we have about a thousand icons around our parish, parents are free (anyone is really) to walk up and down the side isles venerating icons and letting their children do the same. hold still during any times the alterboys are out and the bells are jingeling, you need not be in your seat, just face the priest and pay attention. then you can go back to your prayers and veneration. help your child learn the hymns, cross himself (my friends dd could do this by herself more or less by the time she was 14 months or so). Some parents have put together toddler prayer books etc. print off some icons from the internet and slip them into a cheap photo album. you can also print of coloring sheets with the days saints. quiet toys are also fine. make sure they are actually quiet though. a wooden toy might not make much sound at home but when dropped on the wooden floor of a building with good accustics its a different story. Check with the church about things like snacks and sippy cups. I could not imagine nursing my baby inside my church nave but I also couldn't imagine giving her a bottle there either. its not about immodestly it is just not a place for eating IMO regardless of where that food comes from, how old you are or how natrual it is. anytime my kids need anything we go out to the narthex. But check with the parish you are attending as this really varies by parish.

also keep in mind most people have been fasting since the night before. If you are not taking communion there is no point in fasting but try not to walk in smelling like bacon and eggs. just not cool.

also I don't know if this is a rule or not but at our church and I know others it is frowned upon to walk up and down the center isle short of emergancies (screaming kids who need to leave right then, anything involving a medical need). We sit right by the center isle but enter and exit fromthe side isle. this of course is a non issue I think if you do not have pews......but just something to be aware of.

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by Tradd

XM, I didn't know you've been attending TLM. I only put in the caveat about th length of the Divine Liturgy because many NO Catholics I know (friends, coworkers, family) complain very bitterly when Mass goes a second over one hour. One person even said the amount of time I'm in church weekly makes her ill to even contemplate doing that herself - and this is someone who goes to Mass weekly!

I never understood the in-and-out-bare-minimum mentality. I love Sundays with our longer liturgy and then coffee and snacks and relaxing. Holy Week is the highlight of my year and from posts in this forum I think we spend similar (although not quite the same) amounts of time in the various activities.

lilyka - Such a helpful post! Very interesting about not nursing - I had to read what you wrote twice. Even in the most conservative, old Catholic Church nursing is basically a right. I actually love the idea of making a prayer book out of a photo album. I haven't wanted to give ds any real (or even children's) prayer books because he is so rough when he gets frustrated at having to sit still.

So the verdict: We completely LOVED it. Everyone was so very kind and welcoming. An older gentleman came over in the beginning and got us set up with the missal (do you call it something else?) and all the bulletins. We have a huge informational packet lol. The woman in front of us kept turning around to make sure we were on the right page. We sang right along the entire time. It seemed like everyone else was singing so I was hoping it was okay. DS was even singing and loving it. He loves music and it kept his interest much better than the loooong silence of a TLM. Even in a Missa Cantata there is so much silence. We did sit a fair amount which I was glad for - lots of up and down. Lots of bowing and crossing (which of course you know). DH had an easy time following along. He doesn't know any latin and must have some sort of mental block because he still has trouble with the Mass. This he really liked.

I skipped some of the veneration of the icons. There were so few people there (I guess the big St. Nick's party was last night) I couldn't really follow along. We did participate as much as we could otherwise. What is it called at the end when the Priest blesses you with oil? We liked that part too (Sorry, I feel like a little kid with the novelty).

Overall, I felt like it was a wonderful and appropriate way to worship the Lord. We're definitely going to go back. I only have access to TLM once a month anymore so we'll be going to the Byzantine church the rest of the time.

[Tradd]

XM, so this was in English? May I ask which Byzantine Catholic Church (Ukrainian, Ruthenian (sp?), etc.)?

You must try to get to Vespers occasionally. It's a lovely service on Saturday evening, that's the preparation for Liturgy on Sunday/feasts. The liturgical day in the ER begins at sunset, so Saturday Vespers is part of Sunday. In Orthodox practice, Vespers is about 45-60 minutes. The texts specific to the day (Sunday or feast) are great teaching material.

We don't call it the Missal - it's just the Liturgy book.

Holy Week and Pascha are the center of my year, too. I love Great Lent, although it starts so early this year (Feb. 15th!).

I don't know about the among of singing in the TLM, but *everything* is sung or chanted in the Byzantine Rite. Well, almost everything (there are some small differences like Antiochians/Greeks reciting - normal voice - the Creed and Lord's Prayer, while the Slav tradition even sings that). Was the music four-part harmony stuff? I'm curious (I'm a choir member and general church music geek!).

I'm not sure about the blessing at the end with oil. Maybe because it was St. Nicholas Day? We only do that at the end of Great Vespers with Lityia on great feasts.

If you're going to be going on a regular basis, I'd suggest getting your hands on a copy of the prayer book for this BCC. The parish might have a little book table where they sell them or maybe the parish office, or they can at least tell you which one to get so you can search it out online. The Byzantine Rite (Orthodox/Eastern Catholic) devotional life is a lot different than than of the Latin Rite. Get a copy of the Liturgy book, too, although the text might be in the prayer book.

Here's a Russian Orthodox prayer book online (English)http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/, so you get some idea of the daily prayer life:


Here's a nice children's prayer book, used by many Orthodox I know (actually put together by a Ukrainian Catholic priest): thick (although not a board book) pages, nice pictures. You can find it at other Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic booksellers online. Meant for toddlers.

http://www.archangelsbooks.com/prodd...od=SDUGUARDANG

I've also put together a book for my goddaughter (when she was younger) of holy cards in a small photo album, taping the page opening shut so the holy cards couldn't fall out. Nice way for her to learn the saints. She would also kiss the pages. Good book to keep for church.

Nice blog by a Melkite Catholic priest:
http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com/

[Fay]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

What is it called at the end when the Priest blesses you with oil? We liked that part too

Um, I think it's called a blessing! LOL

Xekomaya, I'm a Byzantine Catholic. I was raised RC, but received permission from the bishop to change rites a few years back, and my kids are Byzantine. My kids also love to sing along with the chants, and it's really easy to learn the chants because everything gets repeated 3x. Byzantine parishes are usually very small, only 100 families in our parish. Very child-friendly, too. I think our priest and deacon are simply ecstatic whenever a family with children shows up, and they'll even embrace my DS1's hyperactive autistic behavior. I've often received Communion while breastfeeding, and I breastfed my younger son during most of his baptism/chrismation.

Some people in my parish like to kneel, it's not forbidden. Not everyone venerates the icons. Some kiss the icons, some just touch the icon reverently with their fingertips (I find it difficult to bend over to kiss the icon when I'm holding a squirmy toddler). My kids are CRAZY about the icons, such a wonderful way to learn about the history of our Church and her saints.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the DL. Many Roman Catholics are unaware that the Eastern Catholic Churches are in full communion with the RC Church. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions about the Byzantine Catholic Church. I live in an area with lots of Eastern Rite churches - Melkite, Chaldean, etc., and I have to say that if you get a chance to attend DL at one of these churches, go for it! It's an amazing way to experience Catholicism.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

lilyka - Such a helpful post! Very interesting about not nursing - I had to read what you wrote twice. Even in the most conservative, old Catholic Church nursing is basically a righ.

Oh I doubt anyone would make a fuss. kids eat and drink in our nave all the time. I just wouldn't do it. but it has nothing to do with breasts or nursing or anything. like I said I wouldn't even give my child a bottle inside the nave. I would go into the narthex to feed my child. I wouldn't bother hiding in the cry room or anything but just out of the nave.....I probably wouldn't let my kids play with toys in church either just because I want them to know we are not here to play (or eat) ....

but then my kids were obnoxiously noisy, sloppy eaters, yes, even while nursing.....especially while nursing....

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by Tradd

XM, so this was in English? May I ask which Byzantine Catholic Church (Ukrainian, Ruthenian (sp?), etc.)?

Yes all English. I have no idea... maybe you can tell from the website? ETA: Oops found it, Byzantine-Ruthenian.

Was the music four-part harmony stuff? I'm curious (I'm a choir member and general church music geek!).

It was just plain old sung/chanted. They said it was "tone 2".

I'm not sure about the blessing at the end with oil. Maybe because it was St. Nicholas Day? We only do that at the end of Great Vespers with Lityia on great feasts.

The church is actually called St. Nicholas so perhaps because it is their patron? I know in the Latin Rite your namesake is a solemn feast.

Here's a Russian Orthodox prayer book online (English)http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/, so you get some idea of the daily prayer life:


Here's a nice children's prayer book, used by many Orthodox I know (actually put together by a Ukrainian Catholic priest): thick (although not a board book) pages, nice pictures. You can find it at other Orthodox/Byzantine Catholic booksellers online. Meant for toddlers.

http://www.archangelsbooks.com/prodd...od=SDUGUARDANG

I've also put together a book for my goddaughter (when she was younger) of holy cards in a small photo album, taping the page opening shut so the holy cards couldn't fall out. Nice way for her to learn the saints. She would also kiss the pages. Good book to keep for church.

Nice blog by a Melkite Catholic priest:
http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com/

It is so interesting to learn about the variations in practice and theology. We'll have to pick up some books to check it out. Just to be clear, I'm not intending to change my Rite, although I think we're really going to enjoy our stay here.

Originally Posted by Fay

Um, I think it's called a blessing! LOL

lol thanks! I met a couple people today who had changed their Rite. They said in fact it was more common to change from RC to Byzantine than to become or convert directly. I would love to chat sometime about your experience.

Originally Posted by lilyka

Oh I doubt anyone would make a fuss. kids eat and drink in our nave all the time. I just wouldn't do it. but it has nothing to do with breasts or nursing or anything. like I said I wouldn't even give my child a bottle inside the nave. I would go into the narthex to feed my child. I wouldn't bother hiding in the cry room or anything but just out of the nave.....I probably wouldn't let my kids play with toys in church either just because I want them to know we are not here to play (or eat) ....

but then my kids were obnoxiously noisy, sloppy eaters, yes, even while nursing.....especially while nursing....

Too funny! I completely understand making decisions to make sure you're teaching the right thing. I would never let ds eat snacks or sippies in Church, but a lot of people do. I actually never let him put his feet down because I know once he does he'll try and run around.

[Tradd]

Ruthenian (looked at the link for the Eparchy). Eastern European (Slavic).

You're probably hearing something similar to the Carpatho-Russian chant some Orthodox parishes use. In Gregorian chant, there is a system of 8 modes. It's the same thing in the ER, just called "tones" instead. System of 8 groups of melodies that rotate throughout the year.

I've never seen the anointing with the oil happen at the end of Liturgy, that's what threw me. I've only seen it at the end of Vespers/Vigil for a great feast. Yes, that has something to do with the parish's patron being St. Nicholas.

[xekomaya]

Tradd - that makes sense. Thanks

Is it rude not to take the blessed bread? I'm gluten intolerant and can't come in contact with any extra gluten. I could always take some, give it to hubby and then wash my hands if necessary, but I did smile politely and keep walking today

[Fay]

St. Nicholas is the patron saint of the Ruthenian Catholic Church, so his feast day is a big deal. In the USA, I think most Ruthenian parishes have the liturgy in English with a few Old Slavonic chants thrown in occasionally. I think this is one of the reasons so many RC folks are attracted to the Ruthenian Church in the USA -- they can understand the liturgy better than a Ukrainian or Maronite liturgy. They use the traditional Slavic tones, which I love because that's similar to the style of chanting used in the earliest days of Christianity in the eastern Roman Empire. The newest translation was just published last year, I like it because it's very close to the original Greek (though as a Greek teacher I would prefer the Greek!).

You don't have to take the extra bread, that's totally optional.