DH and I have different perspectives on Christmas

[shanniesue2]

I don't know whether this goes in parenting or spirituality, but I'm going to post it here and if the mods thinks it needs to be moved that's fine.

Last night, we went to a lights exhibit at a local mega church (not where we attend... we only went for the lights). Anyway, we were walking around and DH started talking about what Jesus would say about it. Mainly because there weren't any particularly Christian parts of the exhibit... it had Santas and peguins and polar bears, and candy canes and things like that... but no nativities or any other Christian Christmas symbols. So he was speculating that Jesus would be wondering why there weren't more Christian symbols since Christmas is a celebration of his birthday.

My response is basically that I don't believe that "Jesus is the reason for the season." (and as someone who was raised in a very devout Christian family, I feel a little heretical for saying that out loud, but it's how I feel). The reason for the season goes back to winter solstice and people needing a reason to celebrate and bring light to the darkest part of the year. Call it solstice, Christmas, Haunakkah, Diwali, or whatever... I think the reason for the season is that human beings have a need for light and for celebration. I believe that calling it Christmas and celebrating the birth of Jesus is a perfectly valid form of celebration, and I feel the same way for any other religious variation on the season.

So here's my question. When I told my DH that Jesus isn't the reason for the season... he got pretty quiet. Didn't say much of anything else. I need to talk to him more about it, but I think that he wants to teach DS and future children about Christmas as the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. I would rather have a more.... um... anthropological (?) approach to the season. I have no problem calling it Christmas, since the term has become so secular in America culture. I guess I'm just looking for a good way to find a middle path in our family. (as far as holidays and religious matters in general go)

We are between churches at the moment, but DH feels very strongly about attending an Episcopal Church. I feel strongly about attending somewhere as a family. I would prefer a UU church, but I feel it's more important to go together... so I've conceded to continuing with the Episcopal church. I just don't know how to create a good middle ground for our son. I want DS to have the opportunity to explore spiritual ideas as he grows up and not be dictated to believe one thing or another.

[meandk0610]

maybe your could go with the Christ birthday for now, since your ds is so young, and add in history lessons as he gets older (like how anthropoligists think that Jesus was actually born in the spring because the shephards were out at night due to lambing season). then again, maybe your husband would be interested in exploring the historical basis of it with you. not to change his mind or attack him, but to better understand WHY that time of year was chosen since it doesn't actually coincide with his birth. (time of year information was from a show on the History channel about 4 days ago that i can't remember the name of - it was about the Dead Sea Scrolls.)

[lilyka]

hmmmm

there are so many issues at play here. MOst of the ways we celebrate the winter holidays (thanksgiving, the feast of St. Nicholas, the feast if St. lucia, the feast of the nativity, new years) has nothing to do with the Nativity and that is fine. The religous and secular holidays have become inter mingled, different religous holidays have been secularized, protestants suddenly embrace the liturgucal cycle of celebrations for reasons I do not understand..... and lets face it even the most religous person is not likely piously considering the incarnation of Christ in the flesh while they are snatching up good deals on toys and socks and undies. Honestly I feel better when the gaudy, money grabbing, comercialization things do not contain religous themes. light shows and winter wonderlands are fun but they are not what the celebration of the nativity is about. Both are fun and great and all that but there is nothing holy or dignified about giant light up Saints and Saviors. I am down with a good time be it secualr or church related. I don't need to put the Jesus stamp on everything just to make it fun. I am not saying celebrating church feasts should not be fun. Our feasts are true feasts and our celebrations are truely joyous occaisions. I am just saying, have some fun with winter and lights and animated twinkeling penguines without worrying if the ratio between religous symbols and non-religous symbols is approipriate. I think if Jesus had been at that event he probably would have been thinking "oooo pretty lights, i made that possible....anyone got any good wine?..."

I do not think this is the yearly anniversary of the actual day of his birth. maybe it is maybe it is isn't, completely irrelevant. its not a freaking birthday party. it is part of the liturgical year. Pick a day, any day, is there ever a bad day to celebrate and remember the facts and events of the day God took on flesh and dwelt amoung us?!!!. but the liturgucal churchs still follow a liturgucal cycle. "on this day every year we will remember this great thing the Lord has done for us". We go through the Bible and celebrate the events contained in there and in church tradition every day, on the same day, every year. Some days according to the date in the calander, some according to other markers. I really do not understand why people make such a big deal as to weather or not Christ was born in spring or summer or winter....it doesn't matter.

I don't really agree with either of you on the whole Jesus is the reason or not. For some things he is. for some thing he isn't. Jesus can be the reason we get together with friends and look at pretty lights and get through the winter without going crazy even if there are not any cheesy (some so bad they are insulting) token religous symbols. but i think the foundation of your issues is that you don't agree on religon. I think you need to address this head on. you sound surpised by the fact that you two are on such different pages.

[lilmom]

I have to agree with pp that you and DH have a major difference of religious views. If my DH had said to me that Jesus was not reason for the season, I would most likely be upset too and may have gotten quiet just like your DH. However, it wouldn't be because I think Christmas is Jesus actual birthday or anything remotely like that. It would be because I think God/Jesus is the reason for absolutely everything good. So, perhaps your DH feels this way too?

In any case, I think a heart to heart about it is definitely in order.

As far as the kids go, I think they certainly can be raised Christian, in an Episcopal church, and still come to their own decisions about beliefs. My parents raised me in Christian churches but also encouraged me to come to Christianity on my own, and know why I believed things. I did go through a period of questioning and searching for answers, and I came back to Christ. Just because you raise your child in one faith does not mean you are preventing questioning or thought on that child's part. Hope this helps, and good luck with the discussion with DH.

[jenneology]

I think I may understand where you are coming from. I'm frustrated with the Christmas season because its well documented that Christ was not born on Dec. 25, (LDS scripture reveals he was born on April 6, which is supported by the estimates of historians that put his birthday in early spring), and because Christmas originates from a period where religious oppression usurped the pagan holidays.

Mainly my dissatisfaction comes from knowing that we're not really celebrating Christ's birthday on his birthday. Because I recognize the historical origins of Christmas, I am beginning to learn more about the earth based religious traditions at the season, especially by celebrating Solstice.

This year I'm coming to a realization however that I can be accepting of celebrating Christ's birthday in December instead of April. I can accept that the date isn't important, but the fact that the event is honored at some point, and it is an event that is worthy to honor. I love the Christmas season for the celebration of light in the darkness of which Christ is a fitting symbol.

I'll always know its not his birthday, and I'll teach my children that its not his birthday, but I'm getting to the point that I can celebrate his birth with everyone else (and then have a little birthday celebration in April as a family).

[philomom]

The early xtians choose the Dec 25 thing because the Romans of the time had a huge Saturnalia fest and festivities the previous evening. With everyone having a big hangover and sleeping in... the early xtians were able to celebrate in relative peace.

There's always been winter solstice and midwinter festivals in human times. Part of it was reassure themselves that the bitterness of winter wouldn't last forever. The sun would come back and crops would grow again.

Not to be harsh, but you and your dh should have explored the faith thing a little better before having kids. I don't like xtianity... it's too absolute for me. I like to honor the seasons with my children and keep heaven and hell out of the equation.

[LynnS6]

This is what my mom told me: When the days got darker every winter, there was some concern among early peoples that the world would end. By the 25th of December, it was clear that the days were lengthening again, and so a celebration of light and life was in order. The church then co-opted that celebration. We don't know exactly when Jesus was born, but the early church chose Dec 25th because there was already a major festival at that time. This was the church's way of making the festival their own. So, that's why there are both pagan and Christian symbols at Christmas. The Christian dimension celebrates the birth of Jesus. The pagan symbols are those of light and evergreen.

Culturally and historically accurate. The fact that the holiday has pagan roots doesn't prevent us from using it to celebrate the birth of Jesus. And it didn't prevent me from growing up in my faith.

I agree, though, that you and your dh may need to work out what you feel about religion.

[Dreamy]

I'm in a similar place, trying to work out new traditions for our family. DH and I were both raised Catholic, but have come away from that as we've investigated the pagan roots of Christianity and in this case, Christmas. I'm doing a lot of research into the origins of the Christmas tree, evergreens and mistletoe, the Yule log, Christmas lights and Santa Claus, and particularly Winter solstice celebrations around the world. I'd say do a lot of reading on the subject so that when you do discuss it, you will have lots of information to back up your point of view. My approach to the nativity story will be related to Jesus representing the rebirth of the sun, which is a part of many solstice traditions.

Have a look at this "Christmas around the world" page for some inspiration on starting your research: http://www.history.com/content/chris...ound-the-world

ETA: I found "Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth" to be a very interesting site as well: http://www.pocm.info/

[Dreamy]

You might also be interested in the book The Pagan Christ, as well as the related CBC documentary. Parts of it talk about how the birth of Christ was transposed on top of Winter solstice in order to placate the majority pagan population.

[Stephenie]

For many, Jesus IS the reason they celebrate, historical reasoning for the date aside. They're celebrating THAT Jesus was born, not when. It's remembrance, not a birthday party. It was 2000 plus years ago, the specific date isn't the point, it's the belief related to that birth and what it means for those who celebrate it. Yes, the date chosen to celebrate was chosen because the world needs light in the midst of the dark of winter, however today people celebrate Dec 25th out of tradition. So I could see why your husband would go quiet- church politics aside, his "reason for the season" is Jesus. It's a personal thing.

You could tell your kids that the reason Christians celebrate is Jesus, the reasons Pagens celebrate is Solstice, the reason Jews celebrate is Hanukkah and so on, and explain that these dates were chosen because of the darkness of the time etc. Let them know dad is celebrating during the dark time of the winter because he believes in Jesus. You can tell them about history without saying Christmas itself is not about Jesus. Traditions, the date etc not so much, but the celebration when done by Christians is about Jesus.


Reading back on that it may sound kind of like I'm scolding and I surely don't mean to do that- I am just trying to explain that a person celebrates for their own reasons and they can logically know about the history etc- but they choose to use that time for their own celebrations of Jesus. Hopefully that makes sense and I don't sound like a jerk.