"Oh, oh now it's ON..."

[HoneyTree]

My 4 y.o. doesn't actually say that, but I can see it flash before his eyes when I react to a behavior.

An example:

He reaches for a third cookie off of the cooling rack. I say no, give my reasons short and sweet, he reaches again, laughing. I block him with my body, repeat the reasons, offer a different choice. Then the flash--now it's on. His goal over the next ten minutes will be utterly focused on consuming as many cookies as possible and smashing the rest.

Do you know what I'm describing? What IS this? How do I deal with it? I need help, because I'll tell ya, my "WHY would you DO that?" isn't helping--me or him!!!

Thanks.

[sgmom]

What a cheeky little monkey! haha!

I don't really have any suggestions on why, but I would probably use a playful parenting technique to help figure it out (and stop the behavior). If you haven't read the book (playful parenting), I just finished it and for the most part, I enjoyed it.

[Nillarilla]

Yeah I see this in my son too. I think it's just about singlemindedly achieving a goal. It seems to be developmental. I just remove the temptation after the limit has been reached because I know he cant control himself and I find the battles very tiring.

[sapphire_chan]

Really looking forward to seeing responses about this, because that behavior from older people makes me very angry. It's like when I ask my dh to slow down a bit and he would slam on the brakes instead (which he has stopped doing, but that got solved by me threatening to scream at him for being a jerk every time he did it .
Maybe dealing with it as two separate issues? Deal with the not listening as one thing, and the destruction as another thing?

Or maybe deal with the not listening by removing him from the kitchen so that the cookies aren't right there to tempt him? Like instead of explaining why he can't have another while you two are standing right there, you carry him into another room and to another activity? It is a very toddler sort of thing to do, so using redirection and distraction like you would with a toddler, instead of reasoning?

If you can do so calmly, I would tell him that it isn't okay to destroy things when he doesn't get his own way. Maybe set up stuff he can destroy, e.g. tearing up paper from the recycling bin?

Anyway, sorry not to be more helpful, that behavior is one I cannot stand so it's really hard to think of reasonable responses.

[ssh]

Maybe there are too many rules or maybe you are letting too many things become issues. It sounds like your DS is used to things becoming a conflict and maybe the relationship is becoming adversarial, sort of a contest of wills. It seems like he sees your blocking him with your body as a challenge. He's treating it like a game.
Our only rules are about safety and treating others gently/respectfully. The only thing I'd physically try to block my DD from doing would be very dangerous or harmful to another person. Foods never been a discipline or behavior issue because we let DD self regulate with food. So when we make cookies she can eat cookies. I only bake 2 or 3 cookies each and put the dough back in the refrigerator because we like them warm. The few times I've baked more at a time, she's still eaten 3 or less, maybe because what she eats has always been her choice. My DD just turned 4 and she is competitive occasionally, sort of an 'I can do it first' kind of thing, but never in an adversarial way about something we've said no about.

[Straggletag]

I'd put the cooling rack out of reach the first time he reached for them, even if it meant opening a cupboard and setting the rack on the dishes, and say when the next cookie would be available (ie after dinner). If he threw a protest tantrum, so be it, but the cookies would be intact. I'd probably handle the tantrum with a time out together for four minutes, then offer to talk it over when the time out was over and get some refueling hugs in.

Not that it ever goes that smoothly. I almost always scramble for SOMETHING to redirect the tot to, as well.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by sgmom

What a cheeky little monkey! haha!

I don't really have any suggestions on why, but I would probably use a playful parenting technique to help figure it out (and stop the behavior). If you haven't read the book (playful parenting), I just finished it and for the most part, I enjoyed it.

totally! My son's the same way. He is 3.5 and loves going through the boundaries. He really responds to playfulness in the middle of limit-setting. It really seems like he uses these times to connect with us. So if I tell him "no" he gets that gleam in his eye and that is our cue to tickle or play-fight. It takes less energy than "no,no.no" and it is fun for both of us, and it usually results in him being able to handle the firmer"no" at the end or he forgets all about his want.

[elmh23]

Any time my kids have done that, I send them out of the kitchen and let them know that it's unacceptable. They eventually catch on and just mentioning that they will be told to leave the kitchen is enough to get them back in line.

[HoneyTree]

I love the idea of responding with playfulness, and we use that a lot. Boy, does it WORK!! My challenge with that tactic comes when the playfulness increases the unacceptable behavior by feeding the "manic" energy rather than redirecting it. (Like when getting the cookies becomes a game.) But the Playful Parenting book has been on my must-read list for a long time, so I think it's time I gave it a good look!

Dandelion, I think you're dead-on that the "gleam in the eye" moment is one where there's a desire for a connection, or maybe a validation that the desire/teptation is STRONG, or a demonstration for a willingness to work with him. Maybe all three. I can *feel* all that, but the trick has been communicating with him fast and effective enough to forestall his pattern response of taking a "no" as a challenge to be met.

Thanks, all, for your helpful and practical advice!

[heartmama]

I would not spend 10 minutes blocking him or playing keep-away. The first time I saw him getting adversarial--the cookies would be put completely out of reach. If he kept upping the ante I would carry him out of the kitchen. When he calmed down, I'd talk about what I expected, and he could try again to ask for a cookie politely.

[Morri]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Really looking forward to seeing responses about this, because that behavior from older people makes me very angry. It's like when I ask my dh to slow down a bit and he would slam on the brakes instead (which he has stopped doing, but that got solved by me threatening to scream at him for being a jerk every time he did it .

This really made things click with me. I now realize that DD is just like DH and they both overreact to a lot of things (I just call DH a drama queen )

With DD I just take away what's causing the issue. So, in the OP's situation I would put the cookies somewhere DC can't reach them and explain why and then try to get DC interested in something else.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by HoneyTree

My 4 y.o. doesn't actually say that, but I can see it flash before his eyes when I react to a behavior.

An example:

He reaches for a third cookie off of the cooling rack. I say no, give my reasons short and sweet, he reaches again, laughing. I block him with my body, repeat the reasons, offer a different choice. Then the flash--now it's on. His goal over the next ten minutes will be utterly focused on consuming as many cookies as possible and smashing the rest.

Do you know what I'm describing? What IS this? How do I deal with it? I need help, because I'll tell ya, my "WHY would you DO that?" isn't helping--me or him!!!

Thanks.

In my house it looks like this - Child reaches for 3rd cookie, I say no. Child goes to reach again. I say I already told you no and that's your only warning. Child starts trying to grab and smash cookies. I say okay that's it, you will not be having any more cookies for the rest of the day, and then child goes in time out. Probably isn't gentle enough for most here but I'm not about having a mini dictator in my house.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by ssh

Maybe there are too many rules or maybe you are letting too many things become issues. It sounds like your DS is used to things becoming a conflict and maybe the relationship is becoming adversarial, sort of a contest of wills. It seems like he sees your blocking him with your body as a challenge. He's treating it like a game.
Our only rules are about safety and treating others gently/respectfully. The only thing I'd physically try to block my DD from doing would be very dangerous or harmful to another person. Foods never been a discipline or behavior issue because we let DD self regulate with food. So when we make cookies she can eat cookies. I only bake 2 or 3 cookies each and put the dough back in the refrigerator because we like them warm. The few times I've baked more at a time, she's still eaten 3 or less, maybe because what she eats has always been her choice. My DD just turned 4 and she is competitive occasionally, sort of an 'I can do it first' kind of thing, but never in an adversarial way about something we've said no about.

Seriously?

[savithny]

The "gleam in the eye" moment is often a spark of "lets see how this will work."

If you can find a copy, "the Scientist in the Crib" is an interesting read (and takes the discussion far beyond infants). It's a book about how babies learn about the world around them -- both the physical world and the social world.

Socially, 3-4 is a big age for trying to figure out social connections, social roles, where they fit into the larger human hierarchy, and just how far they can push the people around them. They will purposely test limits and try to push the buttons of adults around them, precisely because for baby primates it is absolutely imperative that they know their place in the primate troop and where their limits lie. They will experiment to gain that information about where they stand in the order of their world.

I don't even say this as a "ooh, kids all need strict limits!" thing. Just that is is natural for little kids to reach out and feel the edges of what is allowed them -- where they can go, how high they can climb. The order of each family or each community's world may be different. THeir limits can be wherever you put them - tight, loose, whatever -- but I don't necessarily think all limit testing is some kind of quest for hugs. Sometimes that "quest for connection" really is that the child wants you to connect to let them know their place in the world -- and that place is that you love them lots but you didn't make those cookies to be all eaten in 5 minutes!!

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by HoneyTree

My 4 y.o. doesn't actually say that, but I can see it flash before his eyes when I react to a behavior.

An example:

He reaches for a third cookie off of the cooling rack. I say no, give my reasons short and sweet, he reaches again, laughing. I block him with my body, repeat the reasons, offer a different choice. Then the flash--now it's on. His goal over the next ten minutes will be utterly focused on consuming as many cookies as possible and smashing the rest.

Do you know what I'm describing? What IS this? How do I deal with it? I need help, because I'll tell ya, my "WHY would you DO that?" isn't helping--me or him!!!

Thanks.

I haven't read the replies but my suggestion is this. The next time you make cookies you say (nicely, calmly) "Honey, I'd love for you to have one, but last time you smashed them and I want to share them with people who enjoy them. Maybe next time!" Then put the entire batch out of reach.

Yes, he'll throw a fit. But he'll learn that when he treats other people's projects with disrespect, he isn't included in the future. At four he's definitely old enough for that concept.

Remember that gentle discipline is just that...disciplining (teaching) gently. Good luck!

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

I haven't read the replies but my suggestion is this. The next time you make cookies you say (nicely, calmly) "Honey, I'd love for you to have one, but last time you smashed them and I want to share them with people who enjoy them. Maybe next time!" Then put the entire batch out of reach.

Yes, he'll throw a fit. But he'll learn that when he treats other people's projects with disrespect, he isn't included in the future. At four he's definitely old enough for that concept.

Remember that gentle discipline is just that...disciplining (teaching) gently. Good luck!

I don't mean to be disrespectful to your method, but I actually find taunting with fresh baked cookies then not offering any kind of cruel. "Hey look what I made! But you can't have any." I would rather offer him his own plate of cookies (to eat or destroy however he wishes) before explaining that the remaining cookies are not for him and will be put away.

[Theoretica]

I don't think it's taunting at all if it's handled respectfully. It'd be the same if he ripped a book because I couldn't drop everything and read it that instant (next time he asks I'd say nope, not this time, try again later), or if he destroyed the crayons because I asked him to put them away (sorry honey, crayons aren't coming out right now because when we cleaned up last time you smashed them). I'm not saying wave them in front of the kid and mock his soul, I'm saying to kindly and lovingly point out that he can't treat people/things that way and expect them to continue to be offered. And there's always another opportunity to handle it better next time. Then distract, move on, and let go. It should be at MOST a 30 second conversation, kept positive and pleasant, and then moved on to something else (I'd love you have you help me with dinner though!).

Hope that clarifies

[HoneyTree]

Wow. I had NO IDEA that gentle discipline represented such a wide swath of parenting styles. I am seriously in awe of the diversity of responses here.

Ssh, I know what you mean, and I'm struggling with the food limits thing. I have noticed that the things I have historically put limits on are the "precious," the coveted item that is most likely going to be scarfed down. And maybe I don't let ds self-regulate enough, because he sure bee-lines for the sugary treats, and while we do debrief during the stomache ache cuddles afterward about the consequences of too many sweets, he still goes for them. But I love to bake. I love to bake and share. And I use the body block for 1) harm to others, 2) harm to self, and 3) utter destruction of property (in this case, cookies). So I need to ponder that one a little more.

Savithny, duly noted. I have to remember the primates learning limits thing, and the book sounds fascinating.

Theoretica, yes. We use that method often--respectful, quick, reasonable "no," and then move on. I'm just not really convinced that the concept IS within his grasp at 4. I mean, he GETS that the cookies are for everyone, that if you rip a book it's no longer readable, broken crayons aren't fun, etc., he just doesn't reliably act in accordance with that in the "challenge" moment. Sometimes I feel like if I did the "we'll try _____ again later," we'd end up alone in a padded room; at some time or another, he has acted out against a "no" with any number of things that I really don't want to remove from his life entirely. Or maybe I just want to still be able to bake my damn cookies!!!

Again, thanks for the responses.

[sapphire_chan]

I wasn't limited with any sort of food as a kid and I have to use a ton of willpower to stop eating cookies and such as an adult. So don't assume that kids will always just eat until they've had enough and move on.

That said, if you've got a kid who has trouble self-regulating, having protein-rich snacks available and helping the kid get into the habit of having one of those after every two sugary snacks could help matters. It'd break up the taste in their mouth and help even out the insulin response. It's what I've found helps me stop eating the sweet things.

Also, in the book "mindless eating" by Wansink, it talks about ending cues. We eat more out of a big package because we'll tend to eat until the package looks a certain way rather than based on how much we want to eat. And kids are worse about that:

"Children tend to think that a serving size is open-ended and up for negotiation--it is pretty much whatever food is available...we gave 5 year olds six mini-size cookies in either a Ziploc bag or on a plate...given cookies on a plate believed that there were more left in the kitchen--and they wanted them. Children who had been given baggies were more likely to believe the cookies were all gone and that snack time was over."

So that suggests that unless you've got a kid who naturally self-regulates and will probably continue to do so through life, you're going to be better off tucking the cookies out of sight.

[Llyra]

To me, it seems very simple. He's testing exactly where the limit is. Does mama really mean it when she says I can't have one more? How far can I push her, before she draws the line? Can I get a huge reaction by resorting to outrageous behavior (and yeah, 4 years old is plenty old enough for a neurotypical kid to get that this kind of behavior is outrageous)? Can I manage to get what I want (more cookies) by escalating this situation? Where is this going to land me?

Preschoolers are like little scientists.

The behavior gets more and more outrageous, until you put a stop to it, and then the child finds where the limits are, and now he knows. So the next time, he's going to push until he hits that same limit again, to reassure himself that that's where the limit in fact is. This is how kids learn about the world. That's how they learn about not picking their nose in public, for example. When they do it, you tolerate it up to a certain age, and then you start stopping it. Every time you see it, you stop it. You don't start a power struggle about it. You just say clearly, that's nasty, don't let me see you do it. Once the child is interacting with others besides you, they see the same-- their friend at preschool picks her nose, and the teacher stops it. If the child picks his nose in second grade, the other kids give him a negative reaction. Eventually, the limit gets internalized-- picking your nose is something people consider gross, so you shouldn't do it where people can see.

To me, the solution is simple, too. Draw the line sooner in the interaction. Stop the situation before it has a chance to escalate. Say, no, that's enough. Put the cookies out of reach, carry the child to another room, and gate the kitchen. Be sympathetic to the child's frustration, but calm and unmoved. Expect him to yell for awhile, and then go find something else to do.

Now you've put the limit in a comfortable place for you, and he knows where it is. The next time, do it again, exactly the same. And repeat the interaction until he's learned that the limit will consistently lie right there in that moment where you say no more. Then he can stop testing, because he knows now.