children and smoking in apartment buildings

[Rosebud1]

Okay, perhaps this is more of a Health question, but to me it is a Parenting question, social, economic question, the whole gamut.

A friend of mine had to turn down an affordable apartment for her family (in an area with very little housing available) because of the excessive smell of smoke in the apartment. This was in a designated "no smoking indoors" building. She saw lots of cigarette butts on the neighbors' porch, so she thinks the neighbors are secretly smoking indoors as well. I myself recently lived in a building that specifically stated in the lease "no smoking". Our neighbor beneath us smoked indoors and out (and lied when asked about it, saying she didn't). We shared a heating system, and the smoke smell would travel right up into our vents. We have an infant, and this was not acceptable to us. It was a short term rental, so in this case we found another place quickly. But what about people who can't just get up and go? I have also read about high profile lawsuits in the news, where people who brought pricey condos were peeved that their unit was inundated by the smoke from others and are suing.

My family will be moving to a HCOL area very soon, and the reality is that we may have to rent an apartment in a building with many tenants. I guess my question is, what protection do we have in terms of having an expectation for smoke free living indoors? Can people just break the laws of tenancy in terms of smoking indoors with impunity? Do the laws against it have any teeth? If our neighbors are smoking indoors, can we "prove" it? Is it then my family's responsibility to secure new housing and move under these circumstances? How often are smoking practices self-reported honestly?

It just seems to me that people are not honest about their indoor smoking, it has quite the negative impact on children (our daughter got her first ear infection when being exposed to heavy second hand smoke, there is a strong established link). How do I protect my family from this situation?

[VisionaryMom]

I'm not an attorney; nor do I live in your state. These thoughts are based on my experiences as a renter and just my general feeling about these things go.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

I guess my question is, what protection do we have in terms of having an expectation for smoke free living indoors?

I don't think you can have any expectation beyond owning your own place. When you're renting, especially in a large complex, there are going to be things people do that annoy you. I hated that our neighbor left her labs inside to run around all day while I tried to write, but it wasn't illegal. I would advise first finding out the actual laws related to smoking in apartment buildings in your area because they do vary.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

Can people just break the laws of tenancy in terms of smoking indoors with impunity?

Well, are they laws or just the lease? We had a similar issue once, and we talked to a court negotiator. She told us that the lease is a civil contract and that there are no actual laws related to it (beyond fair housing laws and things that are actually illegal - drugs and the like). Although we'd signed a lease with the understanding that a certain behavior wasn't allowed (and it was in fact spelled out in the lease), we had no claim over another tenant not following the lease. If the landlord chose not to do anything about it (and that's what he chose), then we had no recourse.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

Do the laws against it have any teeth?

Again, it depends on if there are laws or just the rental contract.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

If our neighbors are smoking indoors, can we "prove" it?

It depends on how many other people are using the venting system and other factors. My MIL smokes outside when she's at our house, but we can still smell it inside. The smell isn't awful, but it's there. It's entirely possible that they're *not* actually smoking indoors but outdoors next to an intake unit or just in an area where the smoke carries.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

Is it then my family's responsibility to secure new housing and move under these circumstances?

Yep.

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

How often are smoking practices self-reported honestly?

Who knows? I don't think smoking's less self-reported than other offenses of rental contracts, though, TBH. When we rented, we had to say we had 2 cats at most places when we had more because we couldn't find anyone who would rent to us. We did it and hoped for the best. I'd thinking smoking indoors would be pretty much the same.

[elmh23]

Do apartments and condos really have no smoking rules? Really? I've never heard of that and don't see how you would be able to enforce it since the sale of cigarettes is legal.

[littlecityfarmer]

Before we had kids, DH and I rented an apartment next door to a long-term-heavy-smoker. We smelled "cat" when we moved in, despite a no-pet policy, but that was fine with us because we had 2 "secret" cats (many of the neighbors had 2+ cats, too, so they were kind of an open secret.) What we didn't initially smell was the smoke from next door, until I started unpacking the kitchen stuff and opened the cabinets along a wall adjoining the smoker's apartment. The inside of the cabinets reeked of stale smoke, and were all but dripping with nicotine that had seeped through the walls-- I can't imagine what is was like in the apartment next door, or how long the the elderly man who lived there must have been chain smoking to so throughly saturate the walls with tar and residue... There wasn't a "no smoking" clause in the lease, unfortunately, so there wasn't much we could do about it. It was really gross, though, and we probably would have complained had we stayed longer.

Just comiseration, not real advice. In a non-smoking building, though, I would definitly have an expectation that other tenants would not be smoking, and I wouldn't hesitate to report neighbors to the landlord/building manager if their second-hand smoke was having a negative imact on my family's health and quality of life in the apartment (after bringing my concerns to the offending neighbor, of course.)

[angelpie545]

They can enforce it because the person who is renting is doesn't *own* the property-rather, that's the apartment owners. In the interests of their property, smoking is one thing they can choose to allow or not allow. Just like, say, you rented your home to someone and told them either they could or could not smoke. Laws vary from state to state, so it really depends on your particular state. If you had asthma, for example, I could see one being able to successfully argue that someone smoking in a non-smoking apartment would interfere with your right to peaceful living, since you could argue that having asthma is a disability, which the landlord is obligated by law to make reasonable accommodations for. Again, it would depend on your state's particular laws and your lease. If it's a situation where smoking is allowed and is explicitly stated so on the lease, there's really no dice, since whoever owns the property gets to decide if smoking is allowed there, as long as his/her decision complies with local law.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by Rosebud1

How often are smoking practices self-reported honestly?

I'm not too sure what you mean by this. How often do smokers admit they smoke? I don't know many who try to "hide" it as it is still a legal practice. Also, a person can be a smoker and not be one that smokes inside, so why should they "self-report" that to a landlord that allows smoking outside? I'm confused.

Originally Posted by elmh23

Do apartments and condos really have no smoking rules? Really? I've never heard of that and don't see how you would be able to enforce it since the sale of cigarettes is legal.

Our lease had it in it. We were *not* happy about it. For one thing DH and I do smoke, though it's not something that's ever done in the house if the kids are here. What annoyed us was that we didn't get the lease until about 5 days before we moved when the landlord had had a month to send it to us. For someone like my stepdad that would've been an instant dealbreaker. For another, about once a month we like to host gaming while the kids are out for a few hours and some of the gamers are smokers. Our landlord is also president of a local personal injury attorney, so I'd assume it's legal.

[boobybunny]

I own a duplex and have removed a leasee for breaking the non smoking lease. Property owners get a small but valid discount for having non smoking clauses on the insurance. To knowing turn a blind eye could cost an owner in an insurance claim.

[Rosebud1]

OP responds

Thank you for the replies! I am learning a lot, thank you for sharing your insights.

In clarification to some of the points made --

I guess I think this goes beyond "people doing things that annoy you". Research has proven that second hand smoke damages the health of other people. In my mind, people's rights extend as far out as possible -- as far as they do not overlap the rights of others. The lady downstairs chain smoking in her living room while her smoke drifts into my daughter's bedroom and crib - just no. (okay maybe I am being a bit melodramatic! but this was how it was) In some states, smoking parents cannot even legally smoke in their own cars if children are in the vehicle.

In terms of my rental, my downstairs neighbor was for sure smoking indoors --even though we asked her and she did not admit it, we could smell it wafting up the vent at certain times of the day that she was not outside. The strong immediate smell waned when she was out of town. I wouldn't be that bothered about smoking outside, and know that that can drift in too, but when you share vents and someone smokes indoors throughout the day it can really affect the quality of your neighbor's indoor air space.

In terms of self-reporting, I mean honestly admitting when asked that you smoke inside when it is not allowed in the building. I guess I am being a bit surly about it -- I shouldn't make assumptions based on one person being dishonest! I know some smokers who are very courteous about shared air. I also know that it is a "legal practice" to smoke, but I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed in the two non-smoking buildings I referred to in my letter -- and it was done anyway.

I may have to adjust my attitude about this! I just want to protect my little girl from the second hand smoke, particularly in the first years of life. Plus there is annoying, and there is "you are directly affecting my health".

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by elmh23

Do apartments and condos really have no smoking rules? Really? I've never heard of that and don't see how you would be able to enforce it since the sale of cigarettes is legal.

So are the sales of cats and dogs, but they'll have no pet rules. And for much the same reason. Only thing is, a cat/dog only messes up their own apartment and then the renter can be fined for the damages. Whereas cigarettes can stink up the neighbors place too.

[Super_mommy]

If it is a rule set by the LL then everybody should stick to it.

Infant in a house then you have all the right to object.

[choli]

Originally Posted by Super_mommy

If it is a rule set by the LL then everybody should stick to it.

Infant in a house then you have all the right to object.

I don't think that having an infant in the house makes any difference whether the OP has or has not the right legally to object.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by choli

I don't think that having an infant in the house makes any difference whether the OP has or has not the right legally to object.

No, it doesn't. Plus objecting doesn't mean the landlord will do anything. OP, what about asking about the procedure when you're looking at places to rent? I honestly do think you're being a bit melodramatic, but I know plenty of people are that way about smoking. I'm not, but I have other issues that bother me intensely. If it's that much of a concern, find out the policies beforehand for making a complaint, though do be careful that you're not anticipating it so much that you're over-zealous.

[GoestoShow]

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Edited by GoestoShow - 1/4/11 at 8:51am