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How would you react to this? (4yo "making" a younger child kiss him on the mouth)

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
I have been working for about a month now at a daycare center. I am the teacher for the preschool/pre-k class which has about 20-odd kids. My ds is in the older toddler class. I have his teacher's dd in my class (she is 2 almost three) and she has my ds in hers (he will turn 2 next week). I like her and I want us to have a good rapport since we spend 10 hours a day with each other's kids.

Yesterday during naptime I was just coming from my lunch break, and my assistant was getting ready to go on hers. We were standing by the cubbies about a room's length away from the (mostly) sleeping children. Ds' teacher's dd (I'll call her A) was still awake, which is not unusual for her, and so were a couple other kids, all several cots away from each other, and all pretty much quiet but fidgety. I had my back turned to the children for a moment because the other teacher was handing me some papers that needed to be filed in their cubbies, and showing me which cubbies were left to be organized, etc. At that moment, A's mom happened to come out of her classroom and walk past her dd's cot and I hear her say, "you need to be watching your kids better because I don't like what I just saw." Another little boy, almost 5 years old and much bigger and stronger than her petite dd, was on top of her, kissing her on the mouth. I guess my initial reaction coupled with hers was enough to let him know he had crossed a line because he ran to his cot crying. This little boy has a looooong history of being physically inappropriate, but it has always been aggressive behaviors or invasions of people's space (like knocking over someone's water cup, sitting in their chair). This is the first time anything like this ever happened.

Anyway, I brought it up to my boss, who played it down, telling me that he could have seen it on TV or at home and was just imitating what he saw. To a certain extent I agree with her, but to me (and I could be wrong, that's why I'm posting here!) it seems like this little boy is crying out for attention and help in more and more desperate ways. His behavior has gotten more and more out of control to the point that his screaming and aggression sets the tone for the entire class, all day long. I'm worried that next time perhaps he will do something that could be even more traumatic to someone else's child. I feel like he needs help, but that what he needs may be beyond the capacity of our staff to fulfill. even though he has repeatedly kicked and btiten certain staff members, he has not been suspended or asked to leave the center. I find myself just letting him lay on the floor and scream sometimes, because trying to engage/redirect/encourage him ends up with him getting physically aggressive. The directors are ok with me doing this, because I'm pregnant and lord knows they don't want THAT lawsuit if he hurts my baby, but I feel like if it is to that level, then perhaps he needs to be removed. It also seems to me that a HUGE apology is due to that child's mtoher for letting it happen, whether she is a staff member and knows the child's history or not, her dd was upset by what happened and I know I certainly was. I mean, I apologized like 100 times to her; I felt SO bad, even though realistically with all the things that have to be done during naptime, sometimes I do have to take my eyes momentarily off the group (never out of my line of sight though).

Am I being too harsh? Is that reaction overboard? I would love to hear from you more gentle, patient, tolerant mamas (I am feeling short on those qualities these days, maybe the hormones!) on what your reaction would be if this happened to your child, or if your child was the kisser? How would you want it handled? I'm also thinking about this from a parent perspective. If the directors are going to handle these kinds of incident with such laisse-faire attitude, maybe I don't want my child there either. I would be livid if someone assaulted ds and nothing was done about it. For sure, he would not go back to a place where that was tolerated. But like I said, maybe I am overreacting.
post #2 of 16
I don't think your overreacting but I do think you are in a tough spot. If the director is unwilling to do anything about the problem then you are limited in what you can do. As the teacher in the classroom have you considered contacting his parents and in a non-confrontational manner asking if there is anything going on at home that maybe you should be aware of that may be causing him to exhibit these behaviors? The parents may have information that can be helpful and may even be glad you are trying to help.

Good luck!!!
post #3 of 16
Document everything, in a classroom notebook.

If it were me, I would start sending out incident reports every time another child is hit or bitten or kicked. Or for that matter, a staff person. The child's name should not be on there, by the way. But that gives a written record to what's occuring.

It can be easy for a director to blow things off because most of them aren't in the classroom daily. But if you have 2 - 3 weeks of daily logs of the incidents with this child, and they still ignore it...to be honest, I would be out of there. Of course no director wants to kick a child out, it's uncomfortable all around. It's also probably very uncomfortable to have to tell a child's parents that there are significant problems with their child's behavior.

Are this little boy's parents even aware that it's a constant problem? If it's never been brought up to them until this point, then I can see why the directors are reluctant to bring it up now--because they've been caught being negligent to ALL parties.

If you're this boy's teacher, I think that you really do need to talk to the parents about this latest incident. I don't know that it would be a good idea to carpetbag them with everything else he's done if you've not informed them previously.

But talking to the parents about biting, and constant personal space issues IS part of a teacher's responsibility, as unpleasant as it is, it's not all the director. Though I think in this cause you'd probably be right in assuming that the director will throw you under the bus if the parents ask for a conference. In a way, that's why making sure that parents are informed EVERY time their child is bitten or when there are significant problems is the only way a teacher can cover their rear, because otherwise the director can just say, "Huh, well nobody told me" or "I didn't realize it was a problem."

So I would start documenting, documenting, documenting, even if it's only a log in your classroom. Time, date, brief description of the incident/behavior and perhaps the circumstances in which it occured (so that you too have a way to look and see if there's a pattern or change in pattern).

I would say to not work for a director that incapable/uninterested, but realistically I know it's a really tough economy out there.
post #4 of 16
I would be upset if it happened to my child. I would want assurance that a plan was put into place that involved having the other child in constant visual supervision.

If it was my child who was doing the inappropriate behavior, I would probably try to find a daycare that had only children his age or older that he couldn't easily victimize. I would feel terrible that my child was acting out so much and would want him in an environment where he is more likely to be successful. This is assuming there isn't more going on with my child than I am aware of (e.g. a diagnosis). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that my child could not attend that daycare anymore, and would appreciate help in finding a better place.
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Thanks. We have cameras with live web streaming for those who sign up, so the parents are all well aware of what goes on if they choose to be. The mother is aware that her child has some problematic behaviors. They don't like us talking directly to the parents abpout "serious" issues but prefer to handle it themselves, which is OK by me, except that they were actually going to let her walk out of the center without addressing it until I told her, "Miss ____ needs to talk to you before you leave." I feel bad for the mom because she seems so disengaged from her child that I have to wonder if she is just incredibly stressed/overwhelmed or something. She never hugs or greets him at pick up/drop off, asks about his day,etc. He seems, literally, starved for attention.

I just can't neglect all the other kids for him, kwim? the reality is that this mother must by now be aware that her child's problems are beyond the range of what I would call normal, and she is not seeking any help for him, or attempting to find a solution, other than to discipline him harshly (from what I have seen, I don't live with the woman so I can't judge).

And I definitely, absolutely cannot afford to quit this job, for any reason.

The directors are pretty involved with the kids, so they are well aware of the scope of his behavior. I feel like it's a $$ thing although I could be wrong....they hate to lose that tuition.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a difference, like a major step up, in going from hitting and kicking to forcible kissing? I feel like now I'll have to watch him EVERY second in case he tries something even more "shocking" (because I feel that this is all attention-getting behavior, and the kissing thing definitely elicited attention). I'm worried he will try something else equally or more inappropriate, I don't want to call that behavior sexual at 4 years old, but just not appropriate. that is my big worry. I can leave him on the floor kicking and screming if need be, but I can't leave him to potentially go around kissing and touching little girls.
post #6 of 16
:

It's times like this that I wish CPS and such had an anonymous line where you could call in with questions like "here's what I'm seeing, should I report it?"

I'm confused why your center is grouping 2 year olds and 5 year olds though. They don't play at the same level at all. It's begging for trouble no matter how okay the kids are.
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
:

It's times like this that I wish CPS and such had an anonymous line where you could call in with questions like "here's what I'm seeing, should I report it?"

I'm confused why your center is grouping 2 year olds and 5 year olds though. They don't play at the same level at all. It's begging for trouble no matter how okay the kids are.
you know, the thought did occure to me, but I'm not sure what constitutes "assault," and do I really want to label a 4 yo a predator? KWIM? I don't dislike this child, I just want him to get the help he needs.

The 2 yo's are very close to being 3 (like within the next month) and are being "transitioned" to my room. In actuality they are pretty much with me all day and only go back to toddlers once in a while. I have asked to separate them at least into two groups, but it rarely happens. I do write separate lesson plans each night, though, so at least their "work" and play activities are more age-appropriate.
post #8 of 16
Make a note of it.

And act before it gets out of hand..
post #9 of 16
If there was a four year old who kissed another child, even on the mouth, that would not be alarming to me in and of itself. Kids experiment. That's considered in the range of normal child behavior.

The age difference does bring up some concerns, but not every four year old truly "gets" that they are older than a younger child.

A red flag does go up if this was truly one child "making" the other child do it. In that case, there may be a larger issue. But you didn't see what happened, correct? Did the mom actually see or hear the conversation the kids had beforehand? Just because he was on top of her, and is larger, doesn't *necessarily* mean he is forcing her. She could have asked him to kiss her (not saying that happened, just that it *could* have happened) and he was like, "okay" and climbed on top of her to kiss her.

All that said, you have given us a lot of context here, and with the other issues going on with this child, there are not just red flags, but alarm bells ringing. Also, there does seem to be a higher probability that he "made" the younger child kiss him than that there is some other explanation.

If this child is being aggressive toward other children, that is a concern. I am actually equally worried about him harming another child and about him in general. Something is making life very hard for this kid...be it some special need, neglect or abuse in his home, difficult family circumstances, or something else entirely. What good would a serious heart to heart with the mom do? Do you have the authority to do that?
post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post
you know, the thought did occure to me, but I'm not sure what constitutes "assault," and do I really want to label a 4 yo a predator? KWIM? I don't dislike this child, I just want him to get the help he needs.
Interesting. When the pp mentioned CPS, I thought pp was referring to concern that this might be a family issue or home-learned behavior...not that the CHILD needed to be reported (!!!).
post #11 of 16
I don't know, the kiss alone just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Seems like a "keep your mouth to yourself" would be all it warranted. However, given the whole story, maybe the kid is crying out for attention. Or maybe the kid just hasn't gotten "self control" yet. I would probably talk to the director again and really stress the behavior as a whole and how it interupts the classroom.

I just don't see how this could possibly be a CPS issue but I may be wrong.
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauletoy View Post
I don't know, the kiss alone just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Seems like a "keep your mouth to yourself" would be all it warranted. However, given the whole story, maybe the kid is crying out for attention.
This is my feeling, as well. I have a very aggressive 4 year old. He's actually in preschool right now, precisely because he is so disruptive at home that I can't get anything done. He has forced kisses on me, his sisters (even the 5 month old), his dad and his big brother. It's not a forced affection thing, and it's not a sign of sexual abuse. He just doesn't get that when someone doesn't want to kiss you, you don't kiss them. He's too rough, and it extends to his attempts to show affection, as well.

This is something we're working on constantly, but we're fortunate enough that this behaviour doesn't manifest much at all when he's out (eg. we have hitting incidents almost daily - sometimes several times a day - at home, but there have only been two at preschool, which he started in September - and there haven't been any at the homelearning meetup we've been going to every couple weeks for about a year). I honestly don't know what I'd do if this were also going on at preschool. He's slowly getting the idea that grabbing someone's face and kissing them when they don't want to be kissed or climbing on the baby to hug her or whatever is not okay - but it's very, very slow. He has very bad impulse control for his age, has almost no ability to delay gratification and is very easily frustrated. So...he hits when someone does something he doesn't like, and if he wants to kiss you now, he's going to do it. It's incredibly difficult to deal with...but he is improving.

The little boy in the OP seems to be getting worse, and it does sound like he needs help, but I'm not sure what kind of help.
post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
Interesting. When the pp mentioned CPS, I thought pp was referring to concern that this might be a family issue or home-learned behavior...not that the CHILD needed to be reported (!!!).
Eeep! Yes. That is what I meant. That the older child might be being abused.
post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post
The 2 yo's are very close to being 3 (like within the next month) and are being "transitioned" to my room. In actuality they are pretty much with me all day and only go back to toddlers once in a while. I have asked to separate them at least into two groups, but it rarely happens. I do write separate lesson plans each night, though, so at least their "work" and play activities are more age-appropriate.
That's a bit better and makes more sense.

I am going here though. I assumed you'd already talked with him about respecting people's personal space when he'd done stuff before. Have you? And how did that go over?

The actual question of dealing with him might be more of a GD forum question.
post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
Ds is in the bath so I will post mroe later.....I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to call CPS on the child for BEING a predator, but rather on the center for repeatedly allowing other children to be put in danger because he is so violent and out of control. I was afraid that dioing this might get him a "label" that could potentially follow him to elementary school, and become a self-fulfilling prohecy. Does that sort of make sense? I don't think anyone is sexually abusing him, I jsut think that he is figuring out which buttons to push to get teh attention that he needs so badly.

I am really, really against "labeling" children, especially boys, and especially minority boys. It is a huge problem in this country that we tend to write children off as "unteachable" or incorrigible so to speak by using labels like ADD, ODD etc. I'm NOT saying those are not real conditions (I have ADD myself) but that they are not excuses to essentially decide a child's future is bleak and he will never learn to "act right". Little boys of color in partciular seem to be constantly labeled as out of control/hopeless and it seems like every time you involve an agency like CPS that is what happens. That was what I meant about calling CPS or licensing.

I hope that made sense....my attention is divided right now...
post #16 of 16
has the center had a series of meetings with the parents?

how is his homelife? parents splitting up or going thru it? new sibling? any ideas? yes absolutely the ps should be researching to find out what's going on or if they didnt want to trouble themselves then ask the parents to remove the child.

the kissing is not the big thing here. as you say its one more thing against the boy. it is the lack of supervision (even momentarily) is the key. or rather the laying down of the rules. in my dd's dc no one was allowed to move from their mats without permission.

yes there is something definitely going on. perhaps he is brought up v. strict and needs a place to vent? could be so many things.
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