please overwhelm me with statistics and studies...

[lisavark]

I need statistics on why it's not helpful/effective to say "Good job" and "Good girl" to kids all the time.

DH is very GD and an absolutely brilliant dad, but he constantly tells DD "good job," and ever since I read Unconditional Parenting, it's started to grate on me. He is very easily persuaded by information--scientific data and studies--but I don't have a lot of those right now...UP had a few, but I'd love a long list, you know? I don't have a lot of time to research it so I'm hoping you mamas can help me.

This morning he was asking DD, "Are you going to be a good girl today? Are you going to do what mommy tells you?" Aaaaack...! I said, "She's always good!" But I hate the concept of "good" = "do what mommy tells you." Seeing as when she's a teenager, I will NOT want her doing what the most important people in her life (at that point, her peers) tell her to do all the time. However, DH comes from a very traditional background, discipline-wise, and although he has really changed his thinking a LOT since DD was born, UP is still a big stretch for him. I know I can convince him to do it if I can get some strong scientific information on the subject. Help me out?

Thanks so much!

[sapphire_chan]

I don't know of studies beyond the ones Kohn did. You might find more help in his book "punished by rewards".

I'm reading "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" and it offers up scripts for observing rather than judging. "Good job" or "good girl" is a judgment and doesn't give any real feedback to the child as to why it's "good". The author, whose name escapes me, suggests that if you must wean yourself from an excessive use of "good job" you use it as a tag line. Like "You picked up the blocks! (observation) That helps us know where they are. (why it's good) Good job! (optional tag that you gradually stop using all the time)."

If you can't take a picture of it, you're judging.

Ask your dh to explain what he means by "Are you going to be a good girl today? Are you going to do what mommy tells you?". Does he mean that she is only a good girl if she only does what you tell her to do? Does he mean that she is a bad girl if she tries to do what you tell her to do but has an accident or makes a mistake? Does he mean that as long as she has done what you specifically request she's under no obligation to take further positive action?

And the reason it matters for our young toddlers is that we're building our own speech habits. If we're used to saying "good job" "good girl" now when they're really taking our words to heart we'll have a heck of a time changing.

[Wild Lupine]

Have a look at this. New York Magazine, The Power and Peril of Praising your Kids.

[sapphire_chan]

Oh, and you don't need a ton of studies, you just need more studies showing that "good job" is bad than he has studies showing that it's good.

[puffingirl]

The first chapter in Nurtureshock, by Po Bronson, addresses this very well.

[lisavark]

Yeah...I read Nurtureshock (loved it) and told DH about that chapter...he immediately switched from telling DD she's smart and that she did a good job on tasks to saying, "you worked hard at such-and-such!" because I told him about that chapter. But it doesn't address saying "good girl" to encourage behavior; it's more about praising intrinsic ability (smartness) vs. effort. So I'm looking for something more specific about that...

thanks for all the responses so far!

[PreggieUBA2C]

Another vote for Punished by Rewards. The book is devoted to this study and deals with the behaviouristic models that brought about the social acceptance of the carrot on the stick. It's fairly comprehensive, but not too heady, although far less anecdotal than Unconditional parenting, which I also loved.

[sgmom]

As a dog trainer, I find it to be a continuous conscious effort to not say "good girl" to my kid. The less I say it though, the easier I find it to be to say something else instead.

Instead of asking if they're going to be good today, just ask what they're going to do today. Asking if they're planning on being good is sort of like putting a condition on the day. "If you're not going to be good, then I need to prepare myself for your punishment" (or whatever). No child is capable of saying "I'll be good today!" and then following through. So just let the day happen, and work things through as they do.

I'm sorry I don't have any stats for you. I'm having the same problem with the word "Can't", and sometimes "Don't". It drives me CRAZY, EVERY TIME I SAY IT!! ARGH!! "You can't climb on that", "Don't throw your food on the floor".

&#@^%!! Seriously... lol

[Jackies Ladybug]

i'm interested too as this seems to be the only thing ever out of my husbands mouth! i know he means well but it just kills me to hear it constantly. he got it from his mom unfortunately and i just have not been able to get him to quit... yet. i'll get these books and hope there is something in there that will help.

[moonmom08]

Great to see this thread...my DH is constantly telling DD "you are so smart!" I bristle when I hear it, as I really identify. I was told I was smart for years and years, only to find later that I actually had to work at some things (and thus feeling devastated that I wasn't "smart" after all, and moreover, and having to struggle to learn how to work harder!).

[LVale]

I am probably going to get into trouble or flamed or d**** to heck for this, but why do parents keep reading these new age parents books? Every single one of them is going to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It is like following a checklist. Then when you find out the so called experts say oh don't say this or that, and they say you are wrong, you feel guilty, and your parenting comes into question. Why torment yourself so? Children do not come with a set of instructions. You are the parent, use your instinct, believe in yourself, just be kind and loving, and you can't go wrong.

[EzzysMom]

Originally Posted by LVale

I am probably going to get into trouble or flamed or d**** to heck for this, but why do parents keep reading these new age parents books? Every single one of them is going to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It is like following a checklist. Then when you find out the so called experts say oh don't say this or that, and they say you are wrong, you feel guilty, and your parenting comes into question. Why torment yourself so? Children do not come with a set of instructions. You are the parent, use your instinct, believe in yourself, just be kind and loving, and you can't go wrong.

Hey, I think often because our own parenting 'instincts' often come from the set patterns from our parents and we may want to change them because we didn't like how we felt. Trying to find a another way to do it can be tough from observation, the book is a quicker way to learn! Plus it's hard to know the long term results of some of our habits till we get to the end, obviously you need to use your own sense combined with the ideas in the book, some I accept and some I reject

[moonmom08]

Originally Posted by LVale

I am probably going to get into trouble or flamed or d**** to heck for this, but why do parents keep reading these new age parents books? Every single one of them is going to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It is like following a checklist. Then when you find out the so called experts say oh don't say this or that, and they say you are wrong, you feel guilty, and your parenting comes into question. Why torment yourself so? Children do not come with a set of instructions. You are the parent, use your instinct, believe in yourself, just be kind and loving, and you can't go wrong.

I think about this a lot because it seems like you should be right, but many of us are not raised with a tradition of child-rearing (meaning, where you are taking care of siblings and cousins from a young age, or watching extended family raising kids in a somewhat communal setting, etc.). Part of the game is indeed instinct, but much of it is cultural knowledge too, and has been over the course of our evolution. And a lot of us sadly just do not have that these days, but we do have resources such as books. And as was said before, some of use would like to change the cultural knowledge that we DO have. At least, that is my take on it.

[sapphire_chan]

LVale, have you read a parenting book? I say Babywise is an evil book and Twilight reads like a teenage fanfic, but I've actually read sections of both.

I did find that the "what to expect" books are very checklist-like.

[octobermom]

I actually have a quite diffrent POV I don;t like the label good when there is an implied "bad" if its not done. Good job making your bed.. If your family dymamics implies that not making the bed is a bad thing then the compliment becomes icky repeated often down right mean... I also in most cases would rather choose better words. WOW super bed making that really helps the house look clean! rather than just 'good job" good girl ect... However I did grow up in the house where good job good girl ect was NEVER said it was avoided at all costs we got the wow look at those colors or well how did that make you feel compliments and we grew up with an overall postive parental role model but it drove me absoultly batty and I grew up not being able to take ANY complment seriously because frankly sometimes I did need that blunt and simple good job. Not all the time kids aren't dumb and if those words even in a positive hoem are spouted off like running water they learn to go ohh whatever and of course in a negitive punitive they can learn not doing implies they are bad. So well I'm totally off on some weird tangant now but for me I will sometimes offer a simple and genuine good (job girl ect) but its mixed in with a family dynamics of non punishment with lots of open talking and exploring and plenty of other ways of expressing sastification.

Deanna

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Did you get a copy of a "what to expect" book and now you think that's how all parenting books are?

I borrowed this book because I was told it was the best parenting book to have if you had questions (before I had kids) and to say I was disappointed is a really nice way of putting it.

Originally Posted by LVale

I am probably going to get into trouble or flamed or d**** to heck for this, but why do parents keep reading these new age parents books? Every single one of them is going to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It is like following a checklist. Then when you find out the so called experts say oh don't say this or that, and they say you are wrong, you feel guilty, and your parenting comes into question. Why torment yourself so? Children do not come with a set of instructions. You are the parent, use your instinct, believe in yourself, just be kind and loving, and you can't go wrong.

I don't know which books you're reading, but none of the ones I've read (and I've read several) have made me feel like I've done something wrong, or I should be doing something I'm not. That said, I certainly don't need a book to tell me how I should raise my child. I read them because I find the subject matter interesting. Right now I'm reading The Science of Parenting, and even though it almost reads like a high school science book, I can't put it down. How a child's brain reacts to the way we treat them fascinates me as a UP parent.

Alfie Kohn has some EXCELLENT articles on his website that have nothing to do with parenting, and some relate to it like the school system and homework. It's a shame that you're not interested in checking them out.

[tiffani]

While the overuse of "good job" (or "good sliding!" "good building!" "good jumping!" etc) and any use at all of "good girl/boy" drives me crazy, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying "hey good job!" if your kid has just accomplished something that was difficult or time consuming, or whatever. It naturally falls from our lips for a reason, and it's a really valuable way to connect with a child over something that they're proud of. I avoided using it at all after reading Kohn, and found my interactions kind of stilted and not as genuine. kids love to share their joys with us, and saying "good job" occasionally is just fine, imo. If you naturally phrase your compliments and joyousness in a more creative, involved way, then that's great too, but for me, sometimes "hey good job, you worked really hard on that!" is about the best I can muster!

I'd definitely ask dh to phrase his well-meaning "are you going to be a good girl today?" as something more like "you and mom have a busy day today, can you try your best to be helpful and cooperative?" or something like that. I'm always trying to get my son to say he won't do something ever again (like hit his sister or whatever) and he ALWAYS, without fail, says something like "I'll try, but I can't promise I'll NEVER do it again."

[sapphire_chan]

A big part of it for me is that it's so easy to give an automatic "good job" response that's meaningless. If I work at not using that phrase, I'm more likely to only use it when I'm sincerely enthusiastic, and thus it'll have more weight and worth.

[Mommy2Liz]

[dogretro]

Originally Posted by LVale

I am probably going to get into trouble or flamed or d**** to heck for this, but why do parents keep reading these new age parents books? Every single one of them is going to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It is like following a checklist. Then when you find out the so called experts say oh don't say this or that, and they say you are wrong, you feel guilty, and your parenting comes into question. Why torment yourself so? Children do not come with a set of instructions. You are the parent, use your instinct, believe in yourself, just be kind and loving, and you can't go wrong.

Because my instinct tells me to smack my kid when she is naughty. My parents were by no means abusive, but they (almost entirely my mother) said and did things that I absolutely do not agree with when it comes to how we should treat children and adolescents. I am also extremely interested in the topic, as I was a child development major I do not feel guilty or beat myself up when it comes to raising my child (I think I am great!), but again, if I were following my true, deep instincts, she would get smacked every day Thru learning and practice on my part, she never does