has anyone ever thought about this?

[twead]

I have been thinking about how humans are born so immature in comparison to other mammals due to the size of our heads. I've read this in a number of places and it makes sense to me. But then I wonder if you compared to humans to another mammal ( a dog for instance) how old would a baby need to be in order for it to be full term if it was a puppy. OK. let me rephrase. How old is a puppy, in human terms, when it is born. Then knowing that most puppies are weaned at 6-8 weeks (by breeders) what age does that translate to in humans. What age does a mamma dog wean her pups if left to do it on her own. And then, what age does that translate to in human terms.

I don't think many people would wean a puppy at say 4 days old and expect it to eat puppy food, but are completely ok with asking something similar of their own children. I think putting it in a different context might make some people realize how unreasonable early weaning is and how unnatural their breastfeeding ideals are.

[MommyBecky]

They estimate that we reach the age that other mammals are born at 6 mos, which is the time our head and body ration evens out. At this age, you also see newborn reflexes disappear. So, the theory is, if our bodies could handle it, we would have a 15 month gestation.
As for the breastfeeding, I've heard their weaning times are comparable to a human weaning between 2-8 years. Very interesting. I think you make a good point.

[crunchy_mommy]

I was just thinking about this earlier today when weaning puppies was mentioned... I wonder how long puppies would go before naturally weaning?

You do have a good point & maybe this analogy would help some people understand but I think most people would just hear that dogs wean at 6-8 weeks & not "get" that dog gestation & human gestation are very different.

[twead]

not just gestation but also differences in aging and life span. A dog doesn't live to be 70years old.....

[2lilsweetfoxes]

Also, longer-lived animals tend to have fewer babies at a time. Well, mammals and animals that actually take care of their young rather than leaving them/the eggs to fend for themselves. It isn't uncommon for a dog to be born in a litter of, say, six, whereas most humans are born singly.

And, yeah, humans are born extremely immature. But, as I look at my daughter's nugget (she's 8 months), I'd dread having to birth that...

[nia82]

Our cat had kittens once and they stopped nursing around 4-5 months.

I once read about apes and monkeys, I forget the exact numbers but they nurse for longer, and they usually have singleton births as well.

[mammal_mama]

From what I've read, when our ancestors made the transition to walking upright, this resulted in pelvic changes that necessitated us giving birth about 9 months earlier, because if our babies stayed in for their full 18 months of gestation, their heads would be too large to pass through.

And I'm sure the brain growth is also a factor in human babies' heads being so large, and them therefore needing to be born sooner than other primates.

From my understanding, Attachment Parenting is based on the idea that our newborns are still in gestation for about 9 months after birth (9 months pregnancy in the womb, and another 9 months pregnancy out of the womb -- also called exo-gestation).

Which is why AP considers it ideal to wear our babies and keep them snugly-nestled against our warm bodies.

A gestating baby doesn't get cold and never experiences hunger, so by keeping Baby in continuous skin-to-skin contact and nursing on-cue (giving the breast the moment Baby starts to root for it rather than even waiting for Baby to cry), we're essentially extending the pregnancy rather than forcing our babes to adjust to cold, pain, and hunger before they are ready.

Of course, we can only do our best and most babies experience some moments of discomfort no matter how hard we try: this is just the AP-goal, which is pretty much the opposite of the "school of hard knocks"-idea that babies need to start learning, from day 1, that the world doesn't revolve around them and it's not the end of the world if they're unhappy.

[proudmomof4]

In case you don't know this article yet you should find some more related information there:
www.kathydettwyler.org

[sapphire_chan]

More specifically:
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

[stiss]

Originally Posted by twead

I don't think many people would wean a puppy at say 4 days old and expect it to eat puppy food, but are completely ok with asking something similar of their own children. I think putting it in a different context might make some people realize how unreasonable early weaning is and how unnatural their breastfeeding ideals are.

Are you talking about going from breastfeeding to baby food? Most babies don't start eating food until 6 months. If you're simply referring to weaning from the breast (period), while I totally agree that nursing is the ideal, the variability from individual experience to experience is much greater than it is for another mammal, like a dog. There are more factors to consider when looking at why our society works the way it does.

In the end, I think that breastfeeding is very important and needs to be encouraged, and we need more education and support for new moms...and I also think that it should be done as long as possible. However, for me, "possible" means so long as it's working for mom and baby, as long as they have all the resources they need. I think trying to point out how "unatural" weaning is might just serve to polarize and isolate people, since there are so many areas of grey when it comes to nursing. Placing purely biological constraints on a human parenting activity doesn't reflect the complexity of our species, in my opinion.

[Catherine12]

I breed dogs, so I can answer some of the canine questions.

Newborn pups are actually less mature than newborn humans in some ways - their eyes are closed (until about two weeks) and their ears are somewhat closed as well. They are even more sensitive to cold than human babies (at least the breed I have is) as well as needing very frequent feedings (newborn pups never sleep through the night; if they went that long without nursing their blood sugar would get dangerously low). However, they can crawl and are much better at finding and latching on to their mother's teats. So I don't know if you can really compare the maturity level of a newborn pup and newborn human.

Puppies will usually start nibbling at solid food around five weeks (sometimes earlier) and usually start eating significant amounts of solid food at 6 weeks. By 7 weeks, they are usually all but weaned, but will nurse occasionally (out of habit or for comfort rather than nutrition) if the mother allows it. I've never seen a pup older than 12 weeks nurse even if it is still with its mother at that point. A 12 week old pup is probably something like the equivalent of an 8 year old human, but again it is hard to compare between species.

It might surprise people, but mother dogs are as variable when it comes to weaning as humans. Some will try to wean the pups as soon as they are ready, running away or even snapping at older pups if they try to nurse. Others will happily let the pups nurse as long they are interested. I've even seen dogs let pups who are not their own "nurse" from them, even if they are not lactating at the time.

[kriket]

This subject does get brought up every now and again. I asked it a while back myself!

We breed horses and I always thought about how CLW is encouraged yet I'm watching this horse kick her foal in the face because she is done nursing him!

There are a lot of variables to consider here. In western culture breastfeeding isn't the norm. You have obligations that take you away from your baby. You have well meaning family members and bad advice. You have judgmental people in the grocery store (on both sides) It is unreasonable to expect a baby to wean on their first or second or maybe even third birthday. It's also unreasonable to expect a mother to breastfeed for 2 3 or 4 years. Maybe if there was no PPD, no WOH, no other pregnancies, no sexual abuse, no medical conditions etc.

I'm getting wordy. I guess I mean to say, there is no right answer. There is only education and support. My SIL is a PFF and where I wish that she would have BFed it's not my place to say. I will be there to support her and encourage her to breastfeed her other children, but it's no use to beat a dead horse and make her feel bad about it. Now, it would be a totally different story if she would have been a boitch about me breastfeeding. We were able to happily sit on the couch together breast and bottle and have a nice chat about how husbands don't like spitup.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by stiss

In the end, I think that breastfeeding is very important and needs to be encouraged, and we need more education and support for new moms...and I also think that it should be done as long as possible. However, for me, "possible" means so long as it's working for mom and baby, as long as they have all the resources they need. I think trying to point out how "unatural" weaning is might just serve to polarize and isolate people, since there are so many areas of grey when it comes to nursing. Placing purely biological constraints on a human parenting activity doesn't reflect the complexity of our species, in my opinion.

OTOH, biological arguments are a great response to people who make BS claims like "nursing past age 1 is Unnatural and Wrong." If we look at it as the default expected by our very DNA is to nurse for at least 2 years, it eliminates a lot of the doubts about whether it's the right thing for kids to nurse for that long. It changes it from needing reasons to nurse past age two to needing reasons to stop early.

[Macnamara]

Originally Posted by nia82

Our cat had kittens once and they stopped nursing around 4-5 months.

I once read about apes and monkeys, I forget the exact numbers but they nurse for longer, and they usually have singleton births as well.

I just bought a baby animal book for DS today and was reading it. Chimps will nurse for 30-50 months before weaning.