Tantruming 8.5-month-old

[ErynneM]

Jacob has recently started throwing tantrums when we do things he doesn't like. Laying him down for a diape change has become almost nightmarish. He'll shriek and cry and kick his legs.

He also gets really upset if I try to remove him fom an object that isn't safe over to somewhere more appropriate (i.e. moving him five inches away from the dog door so I can put a cover over it).

Is this normal for an 8-month-old infant? What can I do to help him understand that it's not a BAD thing that I'm doing?

I try to avoid scooping him up from behind, because that would be distressing to me if someone did the same to me... but there are times it can't be avoided (like when he's an inch away from throwing himself into the dog's water bowl). Is there anything else I can do to help him out?

We're starting to use "No" with him, usually with an explanation. "No, Jacob. That's the doggy's food. We don't eat the doggy's food." I don't know how much is getting through... but USUALLY, if I can 'no' him before he gets ahold of something, he doesn't get as upset. Once he has it in his hands, it gets 200 times harder to deal with. He will get VERY angry if we take it, and offering something different doesn't always work. Sometimes, the dead crumbled leaf is more interesting than a toy or even a non-toy - a DVD in its case, a stirring spoon, keys...

- E

[dulce de leche]

Sounds like you are well in tune with him already I would continue to baby-proof as much as possible. I know that some things just can't be changed, but the more you set up the environment so that he is free to explore, the better it will be for both of you. Even if you can make just one room completely safe for him, that would be a good start.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by ErynneM

Sometimes, the dead crumbled leaf is more interesting than a toy or even a non-toy - a DVD in its case, a stirring spoon, keys...
- E

I know there are differences of opinion on this sort of thing, but what's wrong with playing with the dead crumpled leaf? We've always encouraged our children to play with natural items over toys. Maybe reconsidering what you find acceptable is one option because I, too, would feel angry and frustrated if every time I found something interesting, someone tried to replace it with something else.

As for the other things, re-direction has never worked with DS, even from a very young age. We've had to try other things (and, yes, sometimes give in). Sometimes we actually have to leave the environment, but that still doesn't stop him. At his age, he also needs lots.of.repetition. Sometimes even if he does understand that you've told him not to play in the doggie door, he'll still do it. Yes, it's normal for his age. He's exploring, testing boundaries, & sometimes lacking impulse control. The first few months they're really mobile you do spend a lot of time making sure they're not eating things they shouldn't be and removing them from an area (again!), but it's how they learn.

[Llyra]

I wouldn't label it a tantrum, not at this age. For me, framing it as a "tantrum" makes it into something that needs to be stopped. He's going to get upset and protest. It's not because it's something bad you're doing. It's because it's not what he wants to be doing. That doesn't mean you don't stop him from going stuff, or avoid doing necessary things like diaper changes. Of course you do, (although choosing your battles can help a lot. ) But you can't expect him not to protest. You and he just won't always agree, and he'll express his disagreement by yelling, and later on trying dramatic things like throwing himself on the floor, or similar tactics. (My DD2's current favorite is hitting her own self in the head.)

The only thing to do, I think, is what you're doing. Give comfort and distraction, give simple explanations, and then stick close to him while he yells out his frustration and gets through it. Stick to your decisions when you know you've done the right thing. He'll learn that you care deeply about how he feels and what he wants, but that you're not afraid to be a leader, and set limits on things that are health and safety issues. It won't stick, not for a long time, but it's the long-term gentle repetition that eventually does work.

Thinking ahead can help too-- thinking of neat things that you can use as distractions, or anticipating the difficult things and taking steps to avoid them, or even just making sure you are one step ahead of him babyproofing as he goes.

For example:

Keeping things that are a daily hassle, like the dog food, in the most inaccessible location.

Starting diaper changes by letting him play with something really cool that he normally doesn't see, like a cell phone, or a remote control, or your sunglasses, or something like that. Diaper changes can be awful at that age. Sometimes there really is no choice but to throw a leg over him and get it over with as fast as you can. But I will say that my cell phone totally saved us during that phase. It was totally forbidden the rest of the time, so it was a great treat when they did get to handle it.

Having a few really cool toys (or non-toy stuff) he hasn't seen in a while in your bag, to offer when you have to take something away.

[ErynneM]

Well, tantrums are, by definition, a fit of rage or an outburst of bad temper... so he surely is a tantrummy little boy! Not necessarily a Little Nero tantrum, trying to control me, but definitely a tantrum.

Since I let him play with my cell phone any time he likes, as long as he doesn't chew on it, I may have to try and find something else... but that might work. I am getting awfully tired of him throwing a hissy when I lay him down to change him.

And I have five dogs to feed, so they all get fed at the same time twice daily (i do not free feed - as a retired dog trainer, i cannot say how bad free feeding is for a dog). I might try delaying them until his nap, but that's an awful long wait for small dogs. I suppose I might also just work on "no" with him a bit more. He hesitates when I say it. Perhaps if I give him a toy after hesitation to distract him?

Thanks for the reply!

- E

[shanniesue2]

Originally Posted by Llyra

I wouldn't label it a tantrum, not at this age. For me, framing it as a "tantrum" makes it into something that needs to be stopped. He's going to get upset and protest. It's not because it's something bad you're doing. It's because it's not what he wants to be doing. That doesn't mean you don't stop him from going stuff, or avoid doing necessary things like diaper changes. Of course you do, (although choosing your battles can help a lot. ) But you can't expect him not to protest. You and he just won't always agree, and he'll express his disagreement by yelling, and later on trying dramatic things like throwing himself on the floor, or similar tactics. (My DD1's current favorite is hitting her own self in the head.)

The only thing to do, I think, is what you're doing. Give comfort and distraction, give simple explanations, and then stick close to him while he yells out his frustration and gets through it. Stick to your decisions when you know you've done the right thing. He'll learn that you care deeply about how he feels and what he wants, but that you're not afraid to be a leader, and set limits on things that are health and safety issues. It won't stick, not for a long time, but it's the long-term gentle repetition that eventually does work.

Thinking ahead can help too-- thinking of neat things that you can use as distractions, or anticipating the difficult things and taking steps to avoid them, or even just making sure you are one step ahead of him babyproofing as he goes.

For example:

Keeping things that are a daily hassle, like the dog food, in the most inaccessible location.

Starting diaper changes by letting him play with something really cool that he normally doesn't see, like a cell phone, or a remote control, or your sunglasses, or something like that. Diaper changes can be awful at that age. Sometimes there really is no choice but to throw a leg over him and get it over with as fast as you can. But I will say that my cell phone totally saved us during that phase. It was totally forbidden the rest of the time, so it was a great treat when they did get to handle it.

Having a few really cool toys (or non-toy stuff) he hasn't seen in a while in your bag, to offer when you have to take something away.

ITA

Even if the definition of tantrum is "an angry outburst" I think I would still try to think about your DS's outbursts in a different way. At 8.5 months, most babies don't know any other way to express displeasure than to cry or yell. I guess what I would do is think about his responses in a different way. For example, when he's protesting a diaper change (completely normal), I wouldn't think about it as a tantrum. Think about it in terms of "he's really upset that he had to stop playing and lie still for a few minutes." Then you can empathize with him and say something like, "oh you're mad. You don't want to lie here right now. But you can get up in a second when I'm done." You don't have to be soft on the rules, but I do think it's helpful for us mamas to try and look at what our children are really saying through their behvior. I think it makes it easier for us to cope with their behavior. ykim?

[_betsy_]

For diaper changes, try a change of location, a diaper-changing-time-only really cool toy, songs, a message first, etc. Just because it's time for YOU to change his diaper doesn't necessarily mean it's time for him to WANT to have his diaper changed. And really, even if there's poop in there, or a ton of pee and he DOES want it changed, diaper changes are just hard a this age. He's protesting with the only voice he has - squirming and squawking. Narrate what you're doing, so he's listening to your calm, calming voice. It's not a tantrum, it's that he's having trouble switching gears between playing and exploring his world and doing something as mundane as getting his diaper changed. It'll get better soon. Then worse again. Then better.

When redirecting, I usually say something like "Oops! That's not for babies!" in a silly, cheerful voice. I'll remove the item or the child, while redirecting the child to something else.

In the case of the dog's water dish, I'd be using baby gates or moving the food and water to an enclosed area - the dogs deserve to be able to eat and drink in peace without worrying about the baby.

[ErynneM]

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

I know there are differences of opinion on this sort of thing, but what's wrong with playing with the dead crumpled leaf? We've always encouraged our children to play with natural items over toys.

If he were only playing, I wouldn't mind. But I dislike scooping leaf out of the back of his throat when he chokes himself on it. If he'll just hold it and play with it and investigate it with his fingers, it wouldn't bother me. It's the trying-to-eat-and-choking that bothers me. :P

And for the most part, nothing is off limits except wires/cords, dog chews, and dog food/water. Everything else is fair game. He has only a few toys - for the most part we prefer him to play with kitchen utensils, pots and pans, my cell phone (under observation), Daddy's wallet... anything he discovers and finds interesting that doesn't pose a safety hazard.

- E

[ErynneM]

Originally Posted by shanniesue2

You don't have to be soft on the rules, but I do think it's helpful for us mamas to try and look at what our children are really saying through their behvior. I think it makes it easier for us to cope with their behavior. ykim?

I have noticed that he is much calmer if we sign to him that we're doing a diaper change (we do ASL with him). Half the time, if we can remember to just sign "I'm going to change your diaper" then he calms right down and lays back, lets us get on with it.

I just worry for him when he throws these fits of temper.

- E

[ErynneM]

Originally Posted by _betsy_

Narrate what you're doing, so he's listening to your calm, calming voice. It's not a tantrum, it's that he's having trouble switching gears between playing and exploring his world and doing something as mundane as getting his diaper changed.

That makes sense. I know that they can often deal with things easier if you tell them beforehand, but he doesn't seem to get the words "I'm going to change your diaper" unless I combine sign language with it, and it's quite hard to sign while holding a baby in my hands.

Originally Posted by _betsy_

In the case of the dog's water dish, I'd be using baby gates or moving the food and water to an enclosed area - the dogs deserve to be able to eat and drink in peace without worrying about the baby.

Unfortunately, we have a very small house and nowhere to put the dog dish but the kitchen... which is the main room for him to wander and explore. So, I keep it at the far end of the kitchen and he and I generally hang out at the front half, occasionally venturing into the living room. I have ears like a fox, and generally give him 95% of my attention, so as soon as his little hands splash into the water, I'm over there and getting him up and away.

But our dogs roam the house freely and so does the baby. Closing either off into a single room would be terribly detrimental to me being able to do everything, and would probably end up with pee and poo all over the new carpeting. I just try and redirect any time he goes for the bowl. :P

- E

[RiverSky]

That is a totally normal and age appropriate behavior. What I did with my children was to totally and completely baby proof. Nothing was off limits, pretty much. For dog feeding time, I would put up baby gates when it was supper for the dogs, to block my child from getting into the very interesting treats. It sounds like this only happens twice a day in your house, so I can't imagine it will be too hard to get into that routine.

For diaper changes, I had special toys that could only be played with at that time, plus some music. I had one of those cloth/toy centers with a plastic mirror on it, the kind you attach to the wall and fold down half of it, so the little toys hang over baby on the changing table, set up, plus a hook next to the table, with one of those pull down plush musical toys. I would play the music, pull down the play toy and perhaps hand a special rattle to baby, and then change the diaper. I also made up silly, sweet songs to go with the different types of musical pull toys and music boxes I had there, all of which revolved around my baby's name and that became a sweet, special time. Baby wanted to listen to me sing and though there was still some struggling, it wasn't as bad as it was without it. Eventually, most children grow out of that, too.

I did a google search for "diaper change toy" to try to find an example and found tons of different posts from all over with moms asking about their babies of similar ages and why they squirm so much during diaper changes. Totally normal and common, therefore not wrong, ya know?

Perhaps instead of saying, "Let's go have a diaper change!", you can say, "Let's go play with the special mirror toy!" or "come with me, my sweet little baby!".

[Freud]

I agree with the others who say try not to label it as a tantrum. It's actually good that your baby boy feels that he can express his feelings like that. He's at the developmental stage where it's important for him to assert himself. It's totally normal, age-appropriate behavior for a child that age. It's okay for him to get angry when you do things he doesn't like, and it's good for him to know that you can tolerate his feelings. He'll eventually become okay with the diapering and other things he doesn't like at this time, maybe just try to make it more fun for him.

[ErynneM]

RiverSky: Interesting suggestions! The changing table is currently in a state of flux as we try to figure out where to put his clothes and diapers and etc now that he's getting older and the things aren't so tiny anymore... so our diaper changes actually tend to be an activity on the floor. I suppose I can see why that would be upsetting, since the floor is his playground currently (he's crawling like a madman).

I must confess, it's only when I do a wet/dry mix of dogfood that it becomes problematic. Otherwise, he seems to get that my tone of voice indicates something Not For Jacob. But when I'm dishing food onto little white plates, he just can't resist touching. The dogs don't mind one bit - I've trained them all to be cucumbers about hands in their food. But I don't much like wiping squishy canned food off his fingers after, you know? I might just try giving him a little white plate of his own to mess about with when I feed them. He's been interested in them ever since he was able to notice the world around him.

Freud: Thank you for the reply. I know it's normal... I just worry if it's good, you know? A lot of 'normal' behaviors aren't ones I particularly want replicated, if that makes sense? I'll see what's available to entertain him during diaper changes... surely there's something babysafe in this house that he's yet to explore. *L*

- E

[Llyra]

Originally Posted by ErynneM

Freud: Thank you for the reply. I know it's normal... I just worry if it's good, you know? A lot of 'normal' behaviors aren't ones I particularly want replicated, if that makes sense?

I'll be honest with you-- I find this comment unsettling. It worries me, because it sounds like you regard him having opinions and expressing them as "misbehavior." That doesn't sit right with me. I'll be honest with you-- if you can't find a way to frame this whole thing differently, the toddler years may turn out to be very difficult for your LO. He needs to know that it's okay for him to disagree with you, and to get angry with you, and to own his own feelings and express them. He needs to know that you can handle his feelings. He needs to know that you can and will set limits and enforce them, of course. But I'm having a hard time understanding what you expect from him, though-- that he will go along with everything you want quietly, that somehow there's a trick that makes it easy and the crying goes away. There really isn't. Of course you set the limits, but he's not going to learn, in his first year of life, to respect them and control his impulses. That takes years and years and years of reinforcement, and repetition, and you gently insisting on the correct behaviors, and you calmly and gently commiserating with his frustration and holding him through his emotional outbursts. There's no magic substitute for that process.

FWIW, I think what you're doing currently is just exactly right. The second he touches the water bowl, or whatever, you take him away from there, show him what he can touch, and repeat as many times as you need to. That's exactly what I would do. What worries me is that you expect him not to yell or cry about it. I think that's unrealistic.

[ErynneM]

Originally Posted by Llyra

I'll be honest with you-- I find this comment unsettling. It worries me, because it sounds like you regard him having opinions and expressing them as "misbehavior."

I think you completely misconstrued what I was saying, which is pretty common considering the forum we're using to communicate - written words, while wonderful, tend to lack the intonation of conversation.

Behaviors that are 'normal' that I have no desire to replicate are things like obsessive TV-watching, obsessive "I-want"s, telling lies because that's just what children do, throwing fits in public for truly avoidable things (wanting a toy, or being overtired or overly hungry). These are all things our society take for granted in toddlers and young children, but not things I have any desire to replicate in my child. That's why I'm reading everything I can get my hands on about proper parenting rather than the slap-dash modern style. We babywear, cosleep, breastfeed, practice EC, read Sears, plan to go Montessori with a dash of Waldorf, and always always always try to communicate clearly with our son and try to understand what exactly it is he is trying to communicate to us.

Make more sense now?

- E

[MamaKickyPants]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your child WILL throw a tanrtrum in public over a completely avoidable thing, he'll probably do it more than once! It's something that toddlers do. You can try your darndest to avoid (keeping him well fed, not overtire, are obviously the very best way to avoid tantrums, you're SO right!) but it's gonna happen, and all the AP'ing in the world isn't going to keep it from happening. All the things you are doing (especially the clear communication, and being in tune with your son and what he's trying to say) are right on, but they will not erase toddler tantrums!

My son was a high needs baby as an infant, and then he mellowed out so much - he hit a year and there was no hitting, he was easily distracted away from dangerous things, such a happy kid. I thought I was such a better parent compared to some of my friends whose kids were biting and hitting (not saying you think that -that's just what I was feeling at the time)

Yeah. Thinking something like that has a way of coming back to bite you! He's now in a serious tantrum stage at 18 mos and had his first 'store' tantrum last week. He wanted to hit/destroy the displays with a roll of wrapping paper and FREAKED out when I explained calmly and clearly that he couldn't do that and I was taking it away from him I just held him and rode the tantrum out, and tried to ignore people staring - actually, most people were pretty sympathetic. He asked to nurse once he calmed down a bit, and it was okay after that.

So you can see whereAP can make tantrums easier to handle (the nursing afterwards, my willingness to just let him have his strong feelings, etc) but the tantrums still happen sometimes.

You've gotten some really good advice here - one thing I found worked for diaper change at that ages is if he can stand up at ta stool or coffee table and play with a cool toy and you do a standing diaper change. I've even done a crawling diaper change, as long as its not a poopy one! All the best!

[Llyra]

Originally Posted by ErynneM

I think you completely misconstrued what I was saying, which is pretty common considering the forum we're using to communicate - written words, while wonderful, tend to lack the intonation of conversation.

Yeah, we're bound to misunderstand. Thank you for clarifying.

Behaviors that are 'normal' that I have no desire to replicate are things like obsessive TV-watching, obsessive "I-want"s, telling lies because that's just what children do, throwing fits in public for truly avoidable things (wanting a toy, or being overtired or overly hungry). These are all things our society take for granted in toddlers and young children, but not things I have any desire to replicate in my child.

I do understand what you mean. I still maintain that your expectations are unreasonable. It's one thing to TRY to minimize these behaviors through good parenting. But ultimately a child is his own individual person, and you only have so much control. He's going to tantrum. I don't think God Himself could prevent two and three year olds from occasionally losing their minds in public. I would love to meet a parent who's never had it happen. It's built into the nature of toddlers. And as far as the I-wants and the telling lies-- you can do whatever's possible to minimize it again, but not giving in to the I-wants, for example. You can help prevent the need to lie by being open to hearing the truth even if it's unpleasant, and by gently confronting a child who lies. But I think that to think that natural parenting is going to prevent all these behaviors entirely is a pipe dream. Kids are going to be kids, and thus mess up, make mistakes, have big unpleasant explosions of emotion, try out unsavory behaviors, refuse to listen to logic or even refuse to listen at all, etc.

[ErynneM]

Originally Posted by MamaKickyPants

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your child WILL throw a tanrtrum in public over a completely avoidable thing, he'll probably do it more than once! It's something that toddlers do.

Oh, I know there's no way to completely avoid them... but I'd like to minimize them as much as possible. And I always want to know I have the option of just leaving when the baby is having a meltdown. I don't want to be the mom who ignores her kid completely in a public forum while the poor thing shrieks and kicks and freaks out. That's definitely not my style.

And I am actually learning how to put a diaper on when I can't see what I'm doing, haha :P If he'll hang out long enough for me to give him a few swipes with a wipe, then I'm all right with chasing after him and trying to fasten him in while he crawls or explores. It's all about being flexible, yeah?

- E

[Llyra]

Once baby is pulling up to stand, and cruising, it can help a lot to learn how to change a diaper while baby is standing. Once they get into the toddler years, I change all the diapers except the really messy ones this way. They're much happier that way.

[PikkuMyy]

Originally Posted by ErynneM

He has only a few toys - for the most part we prefer him to play with kitchen utensils, pots and pans, my cell phone (under observation), Daddy's wallet... anything he discovers and finds interesting that doesn't pose a safety hazard.

- E

I'm going to suggest that this is part of the problem.

I'm a special education teacher, who specializes in early childhood developmental delays/autism, etc. and I've also been a babysitter and nanny for typically-developing infants and toddlers for many years.

My experience has been that having few toys in the house = behavior issues.

Kids get bored easily.

I currently do part-time nannying for an 8.5 month old girl and I can't imagine how hard it would be if she didn't have a good variety of toys. She's very active and interested in everything and without toys, I'd be constantly taking her away from things she shouldn't have.

With a good selection of toys, I can full up a small bin and she'll spend a long time taking everything out, playing with them, put some back in, etc.

I do a lot of interactive play with her but even still, I can't imagine doing it with only a few household objects. We've got a nice set of animals, wooden blocks, baby books, shape sorter, cups that fit into each other, that sort of thing. You can have a nice set of toys without having the awful ones that light up and make noises.