One little Lutheran with a lot of questions

[knittygritty]

Hi, all. I hope this is the right place to put this. I have a lot of questions I'm working through right now, and I feel like this is a safe place to share them and get some feedback.

To begin: I am a 21-year-old college Junior, engaged to a guy I love more than anything. We've been together for 4.5 years and are at the beginning of a long engagement (wedding in 2012). So I know I have a long time to work through this, but it can't hurt to get some ideas now.

I am ELCA Lutheran, and have attended the same church since birth. Actually, this is my family's church--my great-great grandfather helped to found it. So naturally I feel very secure in the Lutheran church and my beliefs fall in line with it. I attend a Lutheran church that feels like home in my college town and feel that it is important to attend each Sunday and festival day, rain or shine.

My fiancee is Catholic, but grew up attending a cult-like fundamental Christian church. Eventually his mother was scared into leaving and joined the Roman Catholic church, which I'm sure was attractive to her because of its stability. Isaac was baptized into Catholicism and enrolled in Catholic schools from grades 1-8, had first communion and was confirmed. After starting at his secular high school, though, he fell off the band wagon and stopped attending. Since then he considers himself Catholic in faith but not practicing.

Now that we are approaching marriage, the religion debate has come up. I like the idea of attending services as a family, the way I did growing up. Isaac does not want to become Lutheran, though, and prefers to be married in the Catholic church. At first I went along with this--"Catholicism and Lutheranism are so similar it shouldn't matter"--but now I'm starting to question my decision.

I disagree with a lot in the Catholic church and the way it differs from mine. I am happy to go to a church with female pastors, I don't believe in confession, I don't like the emphasis on pro-life, and I am ecstatic about the ELCA's recent vote to approve gay ministers.

If I am married in a Catholic service, don't I have to promise to raise my children Catholic? Is it fair for my fiancee to dictate our religion when he doesn't practice and I do? Would it be that difficult for me to become Catholic when my ideals are so liberal?

Sorry for the novel. Anybody else been in this position?

[Bluegoat]

I think there are a few things to concider.

The first is that if your fiance is Catholic, he would need to get permission to get married outside of the Catholic Church. Otherwise, from their point of view the marriage would be invalid. You are not required to become Catholic, but you should understand the Catholic approach to marriage, for example no divorce. You will have to attend the Catholic pre-marriage preparation.

You will not have to promise to raise your kids in the Catholic Church, but your fiance will. IMO, this comes to the same thing, otherwise you are just making life very difficult for him and putting stress on the marriage. THis means your kids are baptized etc in the Catholic Church, and receive religious teaching from the Catholic Church. It does not mean, however, that you are not allowed to tell them about the Lutheran Church, or that they can never accompany you to services there. And of course once they grow up they will be able to make their own decisions.

As far as attending together, I know families who approach this in different ways. Some attend seperatly, some go as a family but one spouse also attends the other groups services, or sometimes they all go to both. Catholics, however, are obliged to go to Sunday (or Saturday night) Mass every week though, so often it is a matter of the family attending the Catholic service most of the time and occasionally the other one. I think the important thing is to talk about it before hand, and respect each other's spiritual traditions.

What may be a bigger difficulty is the CCs teachings on birth control. Entering into marriage with the intent of using artificial contraception can invalidate the marriage from a Catholic perspective.

[knittygritty]

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply.

I think that if I did not convert, my fiancee would continue being a non-practicing Catholic. He only attends mass if I go with him. I feel like he is being hypocritical--If I want our family to attend service as a whole, I am going to have to become Catholic, even though he doesn't attend now!

When I try to talk to him about it he usually brushes me off with "I don't want to have this discussion right now" because it ends up at a brick wall. I feel stuck!

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by knittygritty

I feel like he is being hypocritical--If I want our family to attend service as a whole, I am going to have to become Catholic, even though he doesn't attend now!

You are right that he's being hypocritical. It is not fair for him to dictate your religion when he doesn't even care about religion himself. And you are also right to discuss this now, before you are married and have children.

Given what you say about him, it seems to me that you are going to have to give up your dreams of attending services together as a family. If your fiance doesn't object to the kids being raised Lutheran, I think that's as good as you are going to get - at least for now. (And if that's what turns out to happen, your dh may eventually come around and decide to attend church with you and the kids. Or not.)

It's really not clear from your OP why your fiance is so adamant about being married in a Catholic church when he doesn't attend services anyway. But in any case, I think you should hold your ground. It sounds as though you have really strong ties to your own church, ties you will feel badly about breaking if you give in and marry in a church with principles you don't believe in and one in which you have no intention of raising your kids.

[Adele_Mommy]

My dh was raised Roman Catholic. He is not Catholic now, not even non-practicing. The thing I have observed though is the idea of "the one true church" is such an integral part of Roman Catholicism that for him it is Catholic or nothing. He does not believe any Catholic doctrine anymore, but he has said that if he attended any church (which he won't) it would be the Catholic church. That does not make a whole lot of sense to many people, but I can sort of see what he is getting at. My husband does not believe there is "one true church", but if there were, as far as he is concerned it would be the RC church.

What I am trying to say is I don't think your fiance is being hypocritical. I don't think he is saying you must convert to Catholicism. He simply does not want to become a Lutheran. And that is perfectly understandable. I would think most people would not convert unless they feel a strong pull to the religion they are joining. Your fiance does not feel a pull to become a Lutheran. He is not a particularly devout Catholic, but I don't think that means he must become a Lutheran because you are a devout Lutheran. I don't think that is "fair".

As far as where to get married, if you get married in a Lutheran church, will your fiance have to promise to raise the kids Lutheran? Will he have to take classes on a "Lutheran marriage"? I suspect your fiance wants to get married in a Catholic church because then the marriage will be recognized by his family and it will make things easier for him. My dh mentioned at one time that he would like our children baptized Catholic even though he doesn't believe. I later found out that he only wanted this because he knew it would make his mother happy.

It sounds like for both of you your ties to religion are as much or more familial and cultural than they are theological. As long as you respect each others feelings and neither of you tries to impose a set of beliefs on the other I'm sure you can work out a wedding plan that will satisfy both of you. I do think you need to give up on the idea of attending church as a family though. I doubt your fiance is going to attend regularly no matter which church it is, though he might attend slightly more often if you go to a Catholic church.

Congratulations on your engagement!

[knittygritty]

Your husband sounds very similar to my fiancee. I can sort of see what you mean by the "one true church" idea. It's not something I had thought of before.

Perhaps you are right--that he has his beliefs and I have mine, and I should respect that and not try to make one of us conform to the other. It frustrates me, though, that Isaac's moral, religious, and ethical beliefs are the same as mine (one of the reasons we are so compatible)--and they fall neatly into what ELCA Lutherans believe. But he won't even entertain the idea of being Lutheran.

If we were to be married in the Lutheran church, he would not have to convert and there is no agreement to raise our children Lutheran. Heck, depending on the church neither person has to be Lutheran--you just have to consult the pastor first.

I suppose I should stop pushing, but the idea of loading up the kids and going to church every Sunday while their father sleeps in does not sit well with me. It is important to me to set an example for our kids and make going to church a pleasure and comforting ritual, not a chore. Furthermore, do I have a choice? Isaac is only okay with being married by a priest, so I will be agreeing to raise our children in his faith.

[JenBuckyfan]

I have been a part of the ELCA since birth. Your statements about the ELCA could've come right out of my mouth! Same as you, I found a great church where I went to school and I definitely still connect with the ELCA theology. When I met my DH in college, he was a non-practicing Catholic (MIL comes from a very Catholic family, FIL grew up in the ELCA church but turned agnostic). As we all have criteria that we are looking for in a future DH, finding someone who had faith as a part of his life was very important to me. Enter DH, only went to church when he went home because of his mom. However, DH knew how important believing and going to church meant to me, he actually started to go with me and thanks to a pastor who gave wonderful sermans, my DH enjoyed going with me. He moved out to the NW the year before me and ended up finding the church we currently belong to. When we were dating I had told him there was no way I was going to raise my kids in the Catholic Church (no offense to anyone, my beliefs on female pastors, open communion, gay pastors, etc. are just very important to me; I wouldn't raise them in a WELS or LCMS church for the same reasons) and if we were to get married it would be in a Lutheran church and our kids would be raised in the ELCA church. He was actually totally on board because he also agreed with the theology of the ELCA over what he grew up with. We joined our current church together and he is no longer affiliated with the Catholic church and doesn't plan on rejoining since he doesn't feel a connection with the theology and some of the stances of the Catholic church (especially on the issues mentioned above). I'm not sure what I would have done had he not liked the Lutheran church though, especially since I knew we were meant to be together from the first 5 days I knew him (we've been together since we met). I think we both feel that it's important to attend church as a family so that would greatly have complicated things - I don't envy the shoes you are in.

It sounds to me like you really love what the ELCA has to offer and its theology, while your husband doesn't currently have an active faith life in the Catholic church. Personally, I wouldn't agree to marry in the Catholic church or raise my children in any denomination unless I agreed with the theology. However, I if you wanted to compromise, you could get married in the Catholic church and then turn around and join an ELCA church again and baptize and raise your kids in the Lutheran church if you so choose. I also do know of a couple who was married in the Catholic church by the groom's priest and the bride's pastor. The couple attends a Lutheran church now, but the groom grew up in a very Catholic family and they incorporated a bit of both traditions in the wedding. Have you (together) spoken with the priest of DH's church or to your pastor about your options? You might have to do your premarital counseling in the Catholic church versus Lutheran, but there might not be much of a difference between the two in that manner. I do think that you need to have the conversation of how you will foster the faith journies of your future children - to me it's right up there with the 'how we'll handle money' or the 'expectation of how many kids does each of us want' conversations when planning to get married. Duke it out now - not that your opinions can't change, but if there are polar opposite views you may want to have at least addressed them. Heck, make an appt to see the priest or your pastor or both to allow both of you to share your feelings in a 'safe' place where neither one of you would feel like you can't state your peace.

Does your fiance know how much it would mean to you to be married in and attend the church you connect with? Is there a reason why your DH doesn't want to go to church with you? Is it the ELCA he has issues with or possibly the church you attend? Why does he feel 'stuck' when you want to talk about your faith? Another option is to work together to find a new ELCA church to belong to where you both like what is offered. Or, you agree to disagree and you continue to attend an ELCA church and you both compromise and on holidays - one year you attend mass as a family and the next year you attend your church. And remember, just because he doesn't want to become a member of the Lutheran church doesn't mean he won't support you raising your kids in it or that if he wants to remain a Catholic that he doesn't agree with you on allowing women to be pastors, priests to marry, etc. I know many Catholics who have stayed with the church because of their upbringing and tradition even though they are more liberal on certain issues of faith. I would feel as you do, that it would be tough to not attend church as a family - though is the answer for you to give in and sit in mass every week? Will going to church with him make you feel as though you're there as a family anyway when your fiance is a bit disconnected from the church and you are missing some of the values of the ELCA with with you strongly identify?

I think when you care deeply about your belief system and the theology of a particular denomination, and if it is what is in your heart and is a part of who you are, you should honor that part of you. It sounds like you care greatly about your faith journey in the ELCA and if that's how your spirit is fed then you shouldn't remove it from your life. You and your fiance can have a wonderful marriage even though you don't share the same faith denomination. If you both respect each other's decision and can be at peace with it, then all can be totally great (as is the case with my inlaws)!

[javilu]

Maybe there is a church in the middle? I don't know much about Lutheranism, but it sounds pretty liberal. I think Episcopalians might be pretty liberal, too. But they have similar rituals to Catholicism. Perhaps you two could check out a couple Episcopal churches/services and see if that might be a good middle-ground for your new family?

[knittygritty]

Well, I talked to fiancee tonight. I had made a facebook status that referenced my religious frustration and he asked about it. So we talked about it and came to the following decisions:

1) He doesn't expect me to convert.
2) I don't expect him to convert.
3) He is okay with raising our kids Lutheran.
4) He will attend Lutheran services as a family, as long as he doesn't have to officially become "Lutheran".
5) He still wants to be married by his childhood priest.

I can't say I understand it all, but seems like everything will work out.

[javilu]

isn't facebook helpful (sometimes)? yay! i'm glad you talked.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by knittygritty

Well, I talked to fiancee tonight. I had made a facebook status that referenced my religious frustration and he asked about it. So we talked about it and came to the following decisions:

1) He doesn't expect me to convert.
2) I don't expect him to convert.
3) He is okay with raising our kids Lutheran.
4) He will attend Lutheran services as a family, as long as he doesn't have to officially become "Lutheran".
5) He still wants to be married by his childhood priest.

I can't say I understand it all, but seems like everything will work out.

I think your next step will be to send him to the childhood priest. You should likely go too. Honestly, the priest may well refuse under the circumstances you describe.

[JenBuckyfan]

I'm glad the two of you had a conversation about it! I would also recommend going and seeing the priest to make sure you are all on the same page. It's hard to move forward with planning if you are only guessing if the priest will work with you. As I mentioned in my way too long of a post above, I do know a couple in my hometown who was married in the Catholic Church with both a priest and pastor present and the couple today attends the Lutheran church the bride grew up in. All parties involved were ok with it (I grew up in a town of 8000 people so the small community aspect may have helped in their case). So there's a good chance it'll all work out as you'd like, though be prepared in case the priest says no since you aren't planning to be a part of that church once married.

Good luck and happy wedding planning!

[Fay]

You need to make an appointment with your fiance's priest ASAP. Your fiance does not seem to understand the process of getting married in the Catholic church. The priest will not consent to marry you under the conditions you describe. I think it will be better for everyone involved if you are married in your Lutheran church.

I am a lifelong practicing Catholic married to an atheist. My DH consented to be married in the Catholic church and to raise our children as Catholics, but he now regrets it (and resents me for it). If I had understood his ambivalence back then, I would not have married him. You need to straighten everything out before your wedding day...and even if you *think* everything is straightened out now, be aware that his feelings or your feelings on the subject could be completely different 10 years from now!

[cagnew]

You're problem might solve itself. If his childhood priest is in line with Catholic teaching, and if you guys are honest about the life you intend to lead, that priest will not marry you. The Catholic Church views marriage as a sacred sacrament, and you cannot receive a sacrament in the state of mortal (serious) sin. In the Church's eyes, not attending Mass every Sunday, not raising your kids Catholic, and using birth control (as well as other things) are mortal sins. Your fiance would have to firmly promise to change these things and go to confession before he could be married in the Catholic Church.

However, if the priest is liberal, or if your fiance is not honest, or if your fiance is willing to shop around for another priest, you are bound to find one that will perfrom the wedding. As a Catholic, that disgusts me, but it's true.

It annoys the heck out of me when "Catholics" insist on claiming to be Catholic but do not practice their faith. Your fiance is not being fair to you or the Church he claims membership to.

I hope your problem does solve itself. I hope the priest is a good, solid priest and talks some sense into your fiance and makes him realize how stupid he is being in regards to this.

Good luck.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by knittygritty

Well, I talked to fiancee tonight. I had made a facebook status that referenced my religious frustration and he asked about it. So we talked about it and came to the following decisions:

1) He doesn't expect me to convert.
2) I don't expect him to convert.
3) He is okay with raising our kids Lutheran.
4) He will attend Lutheran services as a family, as long as he doesn't have to officially become "Lutheran".
5) He still wants to be married by his childhood priest.

I can't say I understand it all, but seems like everything will work out.

That is great news. I'm very happy for you.

I would like to say that I think those who are posting hoping that the childhood priest will not accomodate you are being rather intolerant and, well, cruel. Since your fiance knows this priest he probably has a reasonable expectation that the priest will be willing to do this. If the priest is not willing to marry you, I would expect that will pretty much eliminate your fiance's desire to be married by him. It would for me anyway. Why on earth would I want to be married by someone who believes my marriage is invalid in some way?

I agree that the two of you should talk with your fiance's priest so you can begin making plans with some security.

Good luck!

[cagnew]

Adele_Mommy: I am not being cruel. You might not agree with the Catholic faith or beliefs, and that's ok. You, on the other hand, insult my beliefs and my faith by calling me cruel. I forgive you, however, because you obviously are ignorant of Catholic teachings, and that is not your fault. Perhaps, in your desire to be so tolerant, you should not speak about things you know nothing about (meaning, in this case, Catholic teaching). Your reply in itself reeks of intolerance toward Catholic beliefs.

I'm sorry if this seems rude and harsh and cruel, but I get SICK of people running their mouth about the faith I hold dear. Funny how tolerance seems to stop when it comes to those who adhere to the truths of the Catholic Church.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

That is great news. I'm very happy for you.

I would like to say that I think those who are posting hoping that the childhood priest will not accomodate you are being rather intolerant and, well, cruel. Since your fiance knows this priest he probably has a reasonable expectation that the priest will be willing to do this. If the priest is not willing to marry you, I would expect that will pretty much eliminate your fiance's desire to be married by him. It would for me anyway. Why on earth would I want to be married by someone who believes my marriage is invalid in some way?

I agree that the two of you should talk with your fiance's priest so you can begin making plans with some security.

Good luck!

You know, I don't see why it would be odd for the priest to not marry someone who doesn't agree with the Catholic understanding of marriage. A more sensible question would be, why would such a person want to get married in a Catholic Church? Would he be expecting to avoid the requirements since he doesn't actually believe in their doctrine of marriage?

It does sound like the young man in question really doesn't know what the CC teaches about marriage, and it is more a kind of nostalgia that is behind his desire. For him to come to a clearer understanding of where he stands with regard to the actual CC's doctrines would be a good thing in general - he might either decide to really embrace them, or to reject them. Either way, it would be a bit easier for the OP to understand where she stands.

Now, if you think people want the priest to say no just to "teach him a lesson" or prove something, you are right that it is very uncharitable. But I think this comes more from a frustration with the widespread idea that a religious group should marry someone (or baptize or whatever really) just for reasons of family custom, without any intention of believing or doing what that religious group teaches.

We had a request for a marriage at a church I attended by a non-parishoner. It turned out, she wanted to be married there not because she understood or cared about the Anglican view of marriage, but because it was prettier than her own church. This kind of thing is very common and I think makes people angry.

[knittygritty]

Yikes, ladies, I don't want this thread to take a sour turn. All of your input means a lot to me. It is good to hear a perspective from a devout Catholic so that I can know what my plans may need to accomodate. It is also helpful for me making the decision to remain Lutheran.

Thank you all for your responses!