Ways to deal with persistent problem behaviors - help!

[SeekingJoy]

There are a handful of things DS (4) does that make our family life miserable. They sound small, but cause such discord.

He piles bed pillows on the floor. Despite a daily discussion about how dog fur, dirt and sand is on the floor (despite me sweeping 2x daily) DS wants to pull the couch pillows and DD's bed pillows and and blankets on the floor. DD initially goes along with this, but then freaks.

I can't keep washing everything! I have tried giving him large floor pillows and blanket/sarongs specifically for this. No go. I have tried redirecting him to his own bed coverings. Every time, DD has a tantrum about about it and I find myself very frustrated that I now have to completely remake 2-3 beds.

We have other similarly persistent problems: the kids take off all their clothes 5+ times during the day, meaning I have to fight with both of them to redress 5+ times a day in order to run errands, take out the trash, work in the garden, etc. I really don't care if they are naked inside or in the backyard, but it isn't ok out front. Plus, he constantly complains about being cold. Put on clothes!

Also, the screaming and moaning. At the drop of a hat. About everything. (My food it too hot! I am cold! She grabbed my toy! I want chewing gum! Uhhh. I don't liiikkkkeeee dinner. )

And he climbs all over on my bed. Sounds innocent, right? Drives me up the wall for my clean, freshly made bed to be totally undone and dirty shoes to be on my pillow. It isn't like they make it back up after they jump off.

And DS walks up to me and hits me to greet me. He isn't angry. He is just crazy rough.

And he he constantly has his hands down his pants or a finger up his nose.

How are these related? These are persistent behaviors that I can't seem to modify -- much less extinguish -- despite redirection, removing him or myself, reminders, logical consequences or ignoring the behaviors.

I need some fresh ideas to help me enjoy DS again.

[coffeegirl]

I don't have any experience with this but I'll bump up your question so someone else can possibly help you.

[SeekingJoy]

I think it is a bust. Messy posts are always so hard to respond to, and this is certainly a messy one.

[Dukey25]

Sorry I have no sage advice. If you can try to let it go. This will pass I promise. My DS fav. game was garbage truck. He piled all his toys in a pile (or many piles) and of course never put them away again. I almost lost my mind and then in time he moved on. Maybe it you can keep them out of your room and at least your bed will stay nice? Sorry I wish there was a magic solution. Good Luck.

[lonegirl]

Sounds like normal, typical kid behaviour paired with a bit of OCD on the need for clean.
Good luck is all I can say....as I look at my cat hair, food crumb covered floor that I swept just last night before bed. As I see it the hair and dirt will build a strong immune system. In his 3 years of life I can count on one hand the number of times he has been sick and only once was it for more than 48hours.

[swd12422]

Mine's only 2, so thanks for showing me what I have to look forward to! ;-)
I've adapted lonegirl's mantra of the dirt building his immune system. I only hope it's true. The dog hair is a constant battle that I am losing. I just keep lint brushes everywhere and brush everyone off before we leave the house/car so we're at least somewhat presentable.

As for the pillows, either remove them completely (and lock your bedroom door) or maybe try slipcovers? I've known people who keep their bed linens and pillows in the closet, and make the bed after the kids are asleep for this reason. (They cover the fitted sheet with the bedspread so it looks made, but no top sheet or blankets underneath.) I always thought they were insane, but you have to do what works for you. Now that I have a kid, I get it a bit more...

[violet]

It does all sound like it could be normal. It's hard because for every kid behavior there is also the adult reaction that interacts and shapes the picture as well. But-- what you describe reminds me of my ds. What strikes me is the intensity you describe and the persistence...he keeps doing it despite all attempts to explain and distract? Like he Needs to do it?
My ds has some mild sensory processing issues -- he pursues sensory stimulation. like piling blankets and pillows on top of himself, going naked or underdressed, climbing to high places, jumping on beds, food texture sensitivities... So, all this is so normal -- all kids do it, there's no magic remedy to convince them to stop. But as a mom, you often know when normal stuff isn't so normal. For me, the marker was the intensity and he wasn't growing out of the behaviors over time-- more gaining intensity.

The other thing that struck me is how frustrated I sometimes feel when my DS does these things. And how I've been learning to mellow my responses. Instead of an audible sigh and me in a tight voice telling my kids to do this, that or the other I've been learning to be as matter-of-fact and neutral to the annoyances that get out of hand. Something like "I'm going out front to weed the garden in 5 minutes. I have your tiny shovels and some balls ready for you. You can get dressed or bring your clothes to the front door for some help." Neutral and non negotiable. It helps them see the path of least resistance is agreeable action on mom's plan and it helps me stay calm.

best wishes

[lotus.blossom]

Your post does sound quite familiar!! My ds does all these things and I find that I have to adjust my attitude towards it. They aren't terrible things to do (well the hitting, yes) so instead of making the bed in the morning, I make it towards the end of the day (my dh likes to slip into a made bed, or I wouldn't do it at all! )
My ds LOVES to run around in his undies. Its insanely cold right now and this morning he just had undies and slippers on. I make sure that I have a pair of clothes hanging around the entryway so that I can throw them on him if we have to go somewhere. I also do the "I'm leaving without you if you don't get dressed" thing. Works like a charm!

Maybe if you relaxed he would relent on the behaviors. Kids love to get a rise outta you!!

[GoBecGo]

My DD does some of these things. Thankfully i am not too bothered about cleanliness, so i take the immune-system-is-stronger view with most things like dragging her bedding downstairs and so on - i'm in the UK we all have a pillow and a duvet, so "making the bed" is one or two quick actions, not a whole lot of spreading and tucking - worth looking into? It's also super-easy to squish the duvets up and stuff them in a cupboard if she's driving me mental with persistence.

My DD has sensory processing problems too - she has real problems with certain sounds, and in addition she too loves to be nekid! - it's SO cold here and yet she is barely ever dressed. To the extent where i say "DD get DRESSED" and she says "why, where are we going?". TBH i let it pass unless i need her to be dressed, in which case i tell her whatever i need to do (making it sound really fun, even when it's depressingly mundane - "hey, it's so sad! I am going to put this laundry in the drier in tha garage and you can't come because you're not dressed!" - she gets dressed - i don't insist on proper outdoor clothes unless we're going Out, just leggings and a tee and some slippers is fine.

TBH it sounds to me like he is rather enjoying the negative attention he gets from these behaviours (annoying you, annoying his sister, etc.) so i'd try to keep my reactions to a minimum - leave the bed until you need to get in it, if DD is freaking out about her bed say "i know he's annoying isn't he, never mind, let's go cook/paint/do something fun which he can't join in with if he stays to continue wrecking the beds", if he hits you don't acknowledge him, except maybe a mild "i REALLY don't like to be hit" and then walk off. Try to engage him in positive ways before these things happen and not to let him have too much time to be thinking about the next way he's going to get noticed.

It's tiring i know . I find if i let DD help with my everyday chores they take ALL DAY. But if i don't she plays up and makes so much extra work they take all day anyway.

[SeekingJoy]

Thank you so much for the responses. I have not abandoned this thread. Instead, I have been trying to really think through some of the ideas raised to see what changes we can make.

Originally Posted by Dukey25

... If you can try to let it go. This will pass I promise. My DS fav. game was garbage truck. He piled all his toys in a pile (or many piles) and of course never put them away again. I almost lost my mind and then in time he moved on. Maybe it you can keep them out of your room and at least your bed will stay nice? Sorry I wish there was a magic solution. Good Luck.

That this isn't a phase and won't pass is one of my biggest parenting fears. We already get so much judgment from family about how out of line his behavior is (and increasingly DD's since she is in a "me too" phase). We were asked to not come to DH's 90 yr old grandfather's birthday. We've been kicked out of playgroups. Left off family get togethers. I KNOW he is a lot to take.

But I also intuitively sense that as I seek to control DS' wild behaviors, he resists back with the same or more intensity. I have had the most success with calm, persistent explanations -- except with these types of examples above.

Originally Posted by lonegirl

Sounds like normal, typical kid behaviour paired with a bit of OCD on the need for clean.
Good luck is all I can say....as I look at my cat hair, food crumb covered floor that I swept just last night before bed. As I see it the hair and dirt will build a strong immune system. In his 3 years of life I can count on one hand the number of times he has been sick and only once was it for more than 48hours.

It is fairly normal kid behavior. The intensity, physical roughness and persistence are what make it hard to handle day-in-day out. As MDC mama's who have been to my house can attest, it isn't an OCD need for clean . But, the few things I want clean I really don't want to let go of.

Like above, I guess I fear that since he can't even follow a handful of basic house rules that I am raising an inconsiderate, socially inept cretin.

Originally Posted by swd12422

Mine's only 2, so thanks for showing me what I have to look forward to! ;-)
I've adapted lonegirl's mantra of the dirt building his immune system. I only hope it's true. The dog hair is a constant battle that I am losing. I just keep lint brushes everywhere and brush everyone off before we leave the house/car so we're at least somewhat presentable.

As for the pillows, either remove them completely (and lock your bedroom door) or maybe try slipcovers? I've known people who keep their bed linens and pillows in the closet, and make the bed after the kids are asleep for this reason. (They cover the fitted sheet with the bedspread so it looks made, but no top sheet or blankets underneath.) I always thought they were insane, but you have to do what works for you. Now that I have a kid, I get it a bit more...

Dirt isn't really the problem. I have given up and let them eat food off the floor, if they want. I let them drag "projects" in and out the house. Bring their treasures in from outside. Mix the playdoh colors (to the horror of one mom-friend ). Play in the dirt.

I do need to start locking my bedroom door again. Great point. I can barely get the bed made in the first place, much less remake it daily.

[SeekingJoy]

Originally Posted by violet

It does all sound like it could be normal. It's hard because for every kid behavior there is also the adult reaction that interacts and shapes the picture as well. But-- what you describe reminds me of my ds. What strikes me is the intensity you describe and the persistence...he keeps doing it despite all attempts to explain and distract? Like he Needs to do it?
My ds has some mild sensory processing issues -- he pursues sensory stimulation. like piling blankets and pillows on top of himself, going naked or underdressed, climbing to high places, jumping on beds, food texture sensitivities... So, all this is so normal -- all kids do it, there's no magic remedy to convince them to stop. But as a mom, you often know when normal stuff isn't so normal. For me, the marker was the intensity and he wasn't growing out of the behaviors over time-- more gaining intensity.

The other thing that struck me is how frustrated I sometimes feel when my DS does these things. And how I've been learning to mellow my responses. Instead of an audible sigh and me in a tight voice telling my kids to do this, that or the other I've been learning to be as matter-of-fact and neutral to the annoyances that get out of hand. Something like "I'm going out front to weed the garden in 5 minutes. I have your tiny shovels and some balls ready for you. You can get dressed or bring your clothes to the front door for some help." Neutral and non negotiable. It helps them see the path of least resistance is agreeable action on mom's plan and it helps me stay calm.

best wishes

YES! We did have DS screened/evaluated this summer because of some *major* behavioral problems and maladaptive coping behaviors (screaming and spinning from loud noises, persistent hitting, crying or stripping when wearing clothes, etc). He has known some known sensory issues, and they were very helpful this summer suggesting practical solutions.

I didn't see these behaviors as sensory ones at first, so thanks for this perspective. Suggestions for helping us modify them as sensory behaviors?

He sometimes cries and says he doesn't like himself. It is so sad. He says he wants to stop [whatever he was just corrected for], but can't.

[SeekingJoy]

Originally Posted by lotus.blossom

Your post does sound quite familiar!! My ds does all these things and I find that I have to adjust my attitude towards it. They aren't terrible things to do (well the hitting, yes) so instead of making the bed in the morning, I make it towards the end of the day (my dh likes to slip into a made bed, or I wouldn't do it at all! )
My ds LOVES to run around in his undies. Its insanely cold right now and this morning he just had undies and slippers on. I make sure that I have a pair of clothes hanging around the entryway so that I can throw them on him if we have to go somewhere. I also do the "I'm leaving without you if you don't get dressed" thing. Works like a charm!

Maybe if you relaxed he would relent on the behaviors. Kids love to get a rise outta you!!

I do worry I am being too controlling since DS can't seem to follow the ones we have. Simultaneously, I fear I must not be insistent enough or have enough house rules since my kids compare horribly to others.

Where is the balance? I am happy to let go now (for the most part -- my bed is still off limits) if I knew DS would one day be a civil, kind human being. I wasn't worried about potty training, eating, etc.

As for dressing, I have two kids. I dress one, and the other undresses. In the summer, I used to dress one and strap them in the car seat. Then dress the other. It's too cold now.

I am not comfortable threatening to leave him if he isn't dressed. I just can't say, "I'm leaving without you." I won't actually leave him. I try very hard not to tell my kids I will do something if I don't intend to.

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

My DD does some of these things. Thankfully i am not too bothered about cleanliness, so i take the immune-system-is-stronger view with most things like dragging her bedding downstairs and so on - i'm in the UK we all have a pillow and a duvet, so "making the bed" is one or two quick actions, not a whole lot of spreading and tucking - worth looking into? It's also super-easy to squish the duvets up and stuff them in a cupboard if she's driving me mental with persistence.

My DD has sensory processing problems too - she has real problems with certain sounds, and in addition she too loves to be nekid! - it's SO cold here and yet she is barely ever dressed. To the extent where i say "DD get DRESSED" and she says "why, where are we going?". TBH i let it pass unless i need her to be dressed, in which case i tell her whatever i need to do (making it sound really fun, even when it's depressingly mundane - "hey, it's so sad! I am going to put this laundry in the drier in tha garage and you can't come because you're not dressed!" - she gets dressed - i don't insist on proper outdoor clothes unless we're going Out, just leggings and a tee and some slippers is fine.

TBH it sounds to me like he is rather enjoying the negative attention he gets from these behaviours (annoying you, annoying his sister, etc.) so i'd try to keep my reactions to a minimum - leave the bed until you need to get in it, if DD is freaking out about her bed say "i know he's annoying isn't he, never mind, let's go cook/paint/do something fun which he can't join in with if he stays to continue wrecking the beds", if he hits you don't acknowledge him, except maybe a mild "i REALLY don't like to be hit" and then walk off. Try to engage him in positive ways before these things happen and not to let him have too much time to be thinking about the next way he's going to get noticed.

It's tiring i know . I find if i let DD help with my everyday chores they take ALL DAY. But if i don't she plays up and makes so much extra work they take all day anyway.

Thanks for the perspective.

[berry987]

Sounds like my house. Not to stereotype too much, but I have three boys I'm starting to think this is very typical behavior. My 5 year old has a much better time listening to general rules and keeping his hands out of his pants (finally). But our couch pillows used to be a favorite fort-making material and they'd end up piled in the corner 4x a day covered in dog hair and crumbs. My 3 year old still does that stuff all the time and I am constantly reminding him to stop and trying to find something else for him to do.

For my kids, it has to do with being cooped up in the house too long. They start to act stir-crazy and then suddenly they are jumping on beds, yanking sheets off their beds, running through the house naked screaming "PENIS!" and generally going crazy.

I have to laugh most of the time. But sometimes it is just plain exhausting keeping up with them, cleaning up after them, or getting them to clean up after themselves.

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by berry987

running through the house naked screaming "PENIS!"

[swd12422]

"...I guess I fear that since he can't even follow a handful of basic house rules that I am raising an inconsiderate, socially inept cretin...."

Um, isn't that what he, and most other, 5-and-under boys are?? And then it comes back in the teenage years. Or so I've been told....

Whenever I find myself annoyed with a new and evidently persistent and annoying behavior of DS's, I spend a week or two yelling, feeling frustrated, and trying to change it. Then I realize it's here to stay at least for awhile, and let it go, b/c I just can't yell that much (and don't want to). I'm going through this right now with hitting and kicking, and it didn't occur to me until I read this thread.

You can't get him to stop, he seems to be almost compelled to continue, he has some known sensory issues already, and he tells you he doesn't like himself and wants to stop but can't. So it's NOT that he's a bratty kid who wants to push your buttons. He's an active, energetic kid who KNOWS what you want and can't give it to you. Getting angry or telling him to stop won't work. It hasn't yet, and it won't. So come up with some other way to deal, like laughter, a part-time nanny who will remake the couch and beds X times a day, something that will help you keep your sanity about it while avoiding conflicts with him. Maybe just stop putting the cusions back at all for a few days and see if he loses interest? Or just put it back at night knowing the next day it'll all be torn down again, and accept that as part of your lifestyle for now. Then try again in a few weeks.

Sorry. I know it must be so hard, and you don't want to hear "let it go" all the freaking time. Just keep trying to find whatever compromise will keep your sanity the most intact.

[Phantome]

I don't have much anvice, but an IVY.

For the pulling off of bed linens, would it work to just have a bare mattress? Have a blanket and a pillow, then fold them up and put on a shelf or in a closet in the morning, so there's nothing to strip? Then spread them back out at night- not harder than making up a full bed every day. You could do two blankets and he could sleep between them if you don't like the idea of him sleeping on a bare mattress. Anyway, I'm just thinking that in this case, maybe just removing the temptation entirely is the best way to go.

What about one-piece clothes that fasten in the back so they don't keep taking off their clothes? I don't even know if that would work- I'm just throwing out suggestions. Hope all improves for you!

-Phan

[mort20]

You are really dealing with very wayward people. That is so annoying. If I'm on that situation, I might give up immediately. I suggest, you give them reward for every good things they make. That would sound unfair for you but will be effective in making them behave properly.

[LionTigerBear]

Your DS does sound like he is sensory-seeking. I would try to choose your battles with him and give him a little more. Why don't you "put up" any pillows/blankets you don't want him playing with, and let him play with the rest?

So, he's not listening to you-- are you listening to him? Are you really hearing him and his needs? I know I sometimes get into ruts of getting kind of self-centered with my boys-- forgetting that they have valid needs, too-- like jumping on the bed. Jumping on the bed helps center, soothe, and calm sensory-seeking kids.

My second son is also a bit of a challenging child, and I have to remember that he needs to feel that he has control in his life. Every person wants to feel that they have dignity and autonomy. Some children feel less secure about this than others. I would try to give your son lots of opportunities to feel in control and to regain dignity. For instance, if you have to tell him "no" or "later" about something, try to immediately give him a boost with something else-- like immediately changing the subject to "so, should we make spaghetti or meatloaf for dinner? What do you think?"

Which reminds me of the food issue. Most psychologists and gentle discipline experts will tell you that food issues are a gimme. In other words, that's a battle you don't want to fight. Give them the food thing. My son has sensory issues and he pretty much only eats hot dogs and chicken nuggets and bologna and toast. Oh, and almost any sweet we will let him have. Yes, it's very stressful, but I have to let it go. We frequently and casually offer him alternatives of all kinds, but he doesn't want to try it. Fighting him on that will only give him food issues, insecurities, and cause behavioral issues elsewhere.

The hands down the pants is a sensory thing and also a sign that he is feeling vulnerable (out of control). Giving him more control, more choices, more input and respect, will help him to stop doing this behavior. As well as redirecting, of course. When my sensory-seeking sons went through a really bad phase of chewing up their shirts, I bought them each a little lanyard with a small stuffed toy hooked on the end. I told them it was for chewing on instead of their shirt. They loved that, and it showed them that I loved them and was thinking about their needs and comfort.

So, long story short, I think that your son will start feeling more cooperative and a bit calmer when he feels more respected, and more in-control of his life.

[One_Girl]

Have you considered installing a lock on your bedroom door so it can't be used during the day? If you just can't let go of your need for the beds to be nicely made then install a lock and put everything that you don't want messed up in the room on your bed and lock it up during the daytime. You are probably just going to need to find a way to let go of most of the other things. If you don't join the children in having tantrums because they are disappointed, you will feel much better about life. Let yourself read a book and ignore the little things. I only have one dd so I can't speak to the sibling arguing, but I bet if you only interfere if someone is being hurt you will find more peace at home. It is good to let kids learn to work little things out on their own.

[LionTigerBear]

By the way, I have encountered so many of these problems, and I have been reading tons of parenting books to help give me lots of new ideas and techniques, p0erspectives and tools . . .

I recommend, in this order:

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, And Listen So Kids Will Talk and
Siblings Without Rivalry both books by Adele Farber and Elaine Mazlish-- I recommend these first for anyone, they are so practically helpful and easy to read and use! I ♥ them so much!

Then, I recommend:

Hold On To Your Kids
Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves
The Explosive Child: A New Approach For Understanding and Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children

Those three are all really really helpful in a practical way, too.
Then,
Unconditional Parenting-- I recommend saving this one for last. It's a great book but Kohn can come off as a little bit judgmental and harsh if you haven't got that far yet-- and I don't agree with everything he says-- like that praise is bad, etc. But it still has a lot of useful info in it and it is a classic.