Husband vs. Wife - Page 2

[nummies]

Originally Posted by mymary

Is there anyone on this site who has circumcised their son in the same situation and everything turned out ok???

No, it didn't turn out ok. I have regretted it every single day since my son was born. The two sons that are arriving in January will be intact. If you would like to read my story, please let me know.

[l_olive]

My dh was circed as an infant and has suffered sexual consequences (which I'm no longer able to discuss freely on this board) his entire adult life. For him, and for many others who have similar problems, the consequences of circumcision are far from "temporary." Just because it heals fine in a few days doesn't always guarantee it's going to work fine in adulthood. Yes, the majority do just fine, but why is it up to your husband to take the chance just so it looks like his?

[Mama2Kayla]

My son is intact but would have been circumcised had he been my first child. I am thankful every day that I learned the truth about circ before I had a baby boy.

My heart goes out to all of the mothers on this board who struggle with a decision they made or those who are fighting the battle with their husbands.

OP--you have received some wonderful responses... I can only echo what others have said, please keep the focus on your son. It is his body, and your husband should not be allowed to bargain away part of it to make himself feel better. Don't be afraid to stand up for your son...that is something I doubt you will ever regret.

[ursaminor]

My Brother is intact and our father was circumcised. I think my brother could care less about his dad's penis, but my brother is very grateful my mother and father left him intact. My own son is intact and his father is also. I asked DH one day how he thinks he would feel about circ if he himself was circumcised - he told me he would feel "a lot more screwed up about it". I think it is hard for some men to come to terms with circumcision being non beneficial and even harmful when they themselves were circumcised and had no choice in the matter.

On another note - I really have a hard time hearing about doctors who dont recommend circumcision and understand it is a cosmetic surgery but still preform them. How hard is it for a doctor to simply refuse preforming this procedure? Or at the very least refer the parents to someone else who will preform it? If I were in medical school, there is no way, knowing what I know, that I could have anything to do with circumcising a non consenting person.

[rozzie'sma]

My kids come first. I don't think I could ever look my son in the eye if I knew I hurt him to appease my husband. I also don't think I could look myself in the eye. A child's body is not a bargaining chip.

[mymary]

Originally Posted by jenP

Pointing out the above obvious facts to the dad will not help. Because it isn't really about how the son's penis ends up looking. It's about the dad KNOWING that the son IS circumcised, even if he never once even changes a diaper or for any other reason ever sees the son's penis or the son never ever sees the father's penis. It is the dad's desperate attempt to justify his own circumcision by having it done to his son. Circumcising the son "proves" that circumcision is right and good and therefore that Dad's penis is good. Not circumcising the boy makes Dad think there could maybe be something wrong with circumcision - that he could be missing something. (and sadly, he is. But who would want to face that knowledge head-on?)
In other words, it is all about the man's issues. And his issues are his problem. You can't go around hurting your kids just to make yourself feel good about what was done to you in the past.

As for the baloney about feeling left out of all the decisions on child care, and just wanting this "one" thing to be "theirs"? Absolute BS and you should call them on it. First of all, if the wife is doing all the research, then why isn't the husband? Is anything stopping him from researching child care issues? No, he is simply letting his wife do all the work. Secondly, once presented with the research, most guys agree that their wife's decisions are right anyway (on the breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc..) So if they are perfectly happy to sit back and let the wife do all the research, and happy to go along with her well-researched decisions, then why all of a sudden the "oh poor me, I never get to have any say in raising our children..." card? Because it is emotional blackmail, that is why, just a ploy to try to get the wife to let him take a knife to a baby's penis (because he feels a primal compulsion to do this in order to protect his own ego.) If you don't believe me that the "You get to make all the decisions, all I want is this one little thing" argument is baloney, then try turning it around on him. Say, "okay, fine. From here on out you make every single decision there is. It is all up to you. I will be the perfectly submissive wife. You are the husband, you are the king. The kids will be fed what and how and when you decide, they'll get the vaccinations you feel are appropriate, they'll sleep where and on what schedule you decide, you decide if they get pacifiers or not, go in a sling or a stroller, where they go to school, how we will discipline, whether they go to daycare or have a stay at home parent or nanny, and so on. You can make EVERY decision in their whole entire childhood and I will go along with it. EXCEPT we leave the foreskin alone." Think any guys will take their wives up on the offer? I think not, because the real point of the argument is not that they want more clout on all the other decisions, it is because they just want to get the kid circumcised.
"Who, me, issues? No, I don't have any issues! I just really, really need to cut off part of my son's penis! Now just let me, already!"

Good luck, op!

Jen

Very interesting. We have talked about it more, and I am exploring HIS true motives for wanting this done. I keep asking him, WHY? and but WHY? Well, we got down to it, it is a personal want of his. He wants the possible boy to be like him. He also told me a story about a step-cousin or something like that, that he had exposure to growing up. The boy was uncircumcised and had all these problems according to my husband. He kept getting crystallized urine stuck in his foreskin or something like that and had to have surgery or something (you know when you are a kid and you REALLY dont know what the real story is). Anyways, I think that had an effect on him. Also, he told me he has been talking to his co-workers, one close one of his is uncirc. and so is his son, stating the reason of wanting him to be like Dad. The co-worker did say that the first erection his son had was very painful and he cried. Im assuming because the end of the foreskin(I read) is really like a sphincter. But they are happy heing uncirc.

Anyways, yes that makes sense that my husband only wants it because he wants it. We have been looking at pics of uncirc. males and he gets grossed out. Whats up with that? I dont think its gross. His co-workers also said that you get made fun of, they called it an anteater. I'm not afraid of my child getting made fun of though, if its not one thing, its another for teasing. I know it would make him stronger.

Oh, his other BIG reason is that I am a woman and I dont have a penis, so why would I be making a decision about a penis. Basically, leave the male stuff to males. He questions why most of the anti circ people are women. What IS the ratio of anti-circ advocates male to female anyways.

By the way, the recent circ I participated in is not the only one I have witnessed and I sure know that it is painful and looks horrible.

Thanks for listening. It helps to work this out by writing it.

[bubbamummy]

Im English were circumcision is very rare, dh is American where circumcision is very common. When we 1st found out that our 1st was a boy, he told me 'we would be getting him done' I said 'well I have to disagree' it was SO important to me that I said it would literally be over my dead body. I told him I would leave him before I chopped a piece of my darling healthy baby boy. No way, no how was I EVER, EVER going to do it. He just couldnt understand me, he thought, im sure I was a weirdo English hippie girl.

So he raised the subject at our local birthing class in England and everyones jaws hit the floor, he was the object of 20 peoples stares as the more vocal members of the group said 'OMG...why would you even consider that??' once he knew it wasnt just me, he went home and 'Googled' it, I made him read about it, watch videos of it being done and showed him the table they strap those little boys to. He couldnt believe it. He was sickened and called his mother to ask why she'd consented to mutulating him. It made her cry.

Now he he a complete 'intactivist' a complete 180 to his views 2 years ago. He tells people to come here to MDC and read this forum, he 'sells' the facts about how easy our intact son is to 'care' for (yeah...we dont have to do anything ) he tells people how proud he is that we took our 'whole baby' home from the hospital, how we didnt inflict needless surgery on a perfect little newborn.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

The co-worker did say that the first erection his son had was very painful and he cried.

This one is bothering me because boys have erections from the time they are in utero on. There are many u/s pics with boys having an erection. If this boy was in pain due to an erection it may have been because he was starting the seperation process or the dad is not being 100% truthful.

For a few boys the seperation process is anywhere from a little painful to very painful. Not sure why it happens but then I am not sure why some girls have very painful periods and some dont or some have extremely painful breast buds while others do not. It is an individual thing.

Many boys who had issues with being intact way back when was because the parents where told to retract from birth and clean with soap and wash cloth. This is very damaging and lead to many circs later on because of it. If the intact penis is left alone to do what it is supposed to and retract when it is ready the odds of the boy having problems are very small.

Yes sometimes infections do happen they are treatable just like they are for girls without cutting anything off. Most boys never have a single issue at all though.

As of 2004 the circ rate stood at only 21% in Cali. and that number has dropped every year since so your ds would be in the minority if he where circed. http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/

I wish I could give you more up to date numbers but circ isnt something they keep up with much.

[listipton]

Originally Posted by Claire and Boys

Regarding his own most "important" reason to circ. Looking like his father.

I'd have to ask him how often he has spent time comparing his penis with his father's.

This was the kicker for my dh. It was his main argument until I asked him how many times he sat around 'comparing swords' with his dad. Then I left out literature about the myths vs facts of circ (in the restroom where he was sure to see it ). Ds is now 14 months (and intact) and it is a non-issue. I'd stick to your guns mama, your dh will get over it.

[mymary]

The more I read, the more I get convicted. The one poster who said she really had a problem with MD's who dont support circ but will still perform them and how could he perform it with an unconsenting parent? Yeah, how can he. It's not like my gut feeling is going to change and if I sit there and tell him that I dont want my son to be circ. and my husband is there too in the room telling him he does, I would imagine he cant do it.

I trust my gut, I trust myself and my decisions for my children. I know the feeling of going against my gut. When my first daughter was born, and the peds talked me into the first round of vac's. She was 2 months old. I was a first time mom and I didn't feel good about it, but the pressure was SO strong. After that, no more vaccines for any of them. Wow, that feeling sucked, the feeling of being pressured into something you feel is wrong.

I spoke with my mom today and she wonders why we are even arguing about this now. First of all, she thinks its 95% a girl(theres not been any boys in our side of fam for the last 3 generations.) And she says just wait, and if it happens to be a boy in Jan, then it will be easier to make that decision because it will be right in front of you. She also agrees with my husband that this is a "male" decision.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I have to agree with your dh and mom it should be a male decision. But it should be the male the penis is attached to who makes that decision. He can always have it taken off later with proper pain medication. But he can never get it back.

[bubbamummy]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

I have to agree with your dh and mom it should be a male decision. But it should be the male the penis is attached to who makes that decision. He can always have it taken off later with proper pain medication. But he can never get it back.

couldnt agree more. My husband is VERY pleased that I didnt 'allow' him to make the choice, if he had have done, our dear son would be minus a fully functioning piece of his anatomy.

[mymary]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

Please read this link (it's for you to read, not your dh) and maybe it will help you understand your dh's insecurity:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html i

THis is perfect.

[OperaDiva]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

Before you make your decision, I hope that you will read this thread. http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1158645

This is by a mother who was in a similar situation to the one you are in. Please remember that this is real surgery and that there is a real potential for complications.

The above link is my story. Everything was NOT ok, and I have a lot of unresolved guilt and even being upset at my husband because this was his idea. If anything it caused more problems in our relationship for me to just go along with it. My baby boy literally could have died. He needed a blood transfusion and emergency surgery. It was the worst day of my life, and I hope no one ever has to face the same thing. I know it isn't common, but when you see what can happen it is hard to imagine anyone thinking that performing cosmetic surgery on an infant is ok.

[Hedgehog Mtn]

I wanted to throw my 0.02 in here. My DH is circ, my 3 boys are not. As a midwife's assistant for 4 years I ran into a few parents who had dealt with complications during circumsions.

DH didn't have the strong opinions yours does, he didn't see the need for an unnecessary surgery but mainly he left it up to me. Years later as the MA we were both glad we made the choice we did. We both met some clients I dealt with where fathers or sons had corrective surgery later in life (ranging from ages 2-56 when they had the corrective surgery) sometime more than 1 surgery was needed.


I've started talking to my sons (oldest is almost 10) about circ and why we didn't choose it for them. We explained that we were 100% in support of them having the surgery later if it was important for them. My oldest recently thanked me for making this choice. He knows he isn't like daddy and not everyone looks like him.....he wanted me to know that the choice was important to him and he appreciated the fact that it would eventually be HIS choice.


FWIW - I do know 3 people who had the surgery as adults and they were happy with their choice to do it.


Sara

[sehbub]

DH is circumcised and insisted our son would be as well. He played the "he WILL look like me" card and the "he'll get made fun of in the locker room" card and the "I'm the man, I make the decision about male parts." I countered with "He may not look like you. Should we die his hair and also sign him up for a rhinoplasty in case he gets my nose?" and "won't the guy staring at other guys' penises get made fun of?" and "I'm the only one in this marriage with intact genitalia. Let's let him choose."

Honestly, my "willingness" to allow our son to make the theoretical decision to be circumcised when he's older was enough for him. That and he just didn't care enough to continue to fight with me on it. I was adamant, and he knew that no way in hell would I back down.

Here's my recommendation: If, after reviewing all of the research, watching the video, and thinking about it in terms of his daughters (also a push for my husband, as he couldn't imagine circumcising one of our girls), then I propose that you at least work out a compromise with him, that he agree to wait a few months to have it done.

I've known several couples in your position. Wife said no, husband said yes, an impasse was reached. After taking the whole baby home from the hospital and agreeing to revisit the discussion at 6 weeks, 100% of the husbands agreed that it was unnecessary.

Best of luck, OP. I can sympathize with being in your shoes, albeit not to the same extent. It still saddens me every time an acquaintance chooses to leave a portion of their dear son at the hospital.

[Fyrestorm]

He might have a penis...but you have intact genitals. Since you are familiar with what it's like to have all the experience with intact genitals, your opinion is much more valid. He has no clue.

[PuppyFluffer]

Originally Posted by sehbub

It still saddens me every time an acquaintance chooses to leave a portion of their dear son at the hospital.

I agree with this. I think not enough people think of circ in it's cold hard facts. A piece of your baby will be left in a medical waste bin - a piece that he was naturally born with, that was perfectly normal and healthy.

Congrats on the pregnancy sehbub!

[Ann-Marita]

I'd say don't worry about it.

You said that you do all the research. Well, until he does some research himself and gets all informed, he has no say in the matter.

Tell him that when he can come back with MEDICAL reasons why you should circ, THEN you can discuss it rationally. (And you can come here if you need any help arguing your side.)

But until he does the reasearch and has rational, medical reasons to perform cosmetic surgery on a newborn, he does not get a vote.

(And even after that, the only vote that really counts is the person attached to the foreskin in question. His body, his choice.)

[proudmomof4]

Everything else I would've said has been said. I especially agree with this remark:
"My kids come first. I don't think I could ever look my son in the eye if I knew I hurt him to appease my husband. I also don't think I could look myself in the eye. A child's body is not a bargaining chip." (rozzie'sma)

As you were also mentioning "biblical reasons": there was a thread on circumcision in spirituality for a Jewish background. As you said "biblical" (as opposed to "G-d given command from the Thorah" or similar) this might not quite hit home with you but maybe gives you another perspective.