Why does my chosen faith matter so much to others? - Page 2

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

If it helps, I get the same thing even though I am a Christian. I just belong to an "unusual" faction of Christianity, and when people from certain denominations find this out, they keep trying to steer the conversation around to what the Bible says about this or that, keep trying to get us to pray with them, etc. They will not let it go! We have had to drop friends because of this issue. So you do not have to be a Pagan to be judged and hounded by Christians (although it probably helps )

Yeah, tell me about it (Orthodox, too).

For the pp who said she was tired of a friend's religious references - what sort of religious references are you talking about? Is friend talking about beliefs or activities if she's really involved in her church? See, folks know I'm very active, in a 3 year intensive program to be come a certified lay catechist, big into choir, etc. But I make it a point to not talk about specific beliefs unless the other person brings it up. For example, a Baptist coworker big into his church's music ministry asked about my church's music, so I brought in some sheet music to show him. Or we talk about our respective Sunday school classes, what we're studying, etc. We rarely get into the "Baptist have X take on this and the Orthodox is Y."

[Smokering]

I suppose the rub is, even Christians believe that god gifted man with free will... which means that he gave humans the ability, and even the right, to deny him or to choose other beliefs. So who gave Joe Christian the right to be the keeper of anyone elses' soul but his own? If the offer must be made, then fine..but people have trouble taking no for an answer, which causes a lot of widescale resentment ya know?

Not all Christians believe in free will, actually. I don't. But certainly most Christians, if not all, would agree you can't force someone into the Christian faith; and most would also agree that pestering someone by talking loudly about church isn't a likely evangelical method either. I don't suppose the people in question have thought it through logically; it's probably more of a nervous reaction.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Yeah, tell me about it (Orthodox, too).

For the pp who said she was tired of a friend's religious references - what sort of religious references are you talking about? Is friend talking about beliefs or activities if she's really involved in her church? See, folks know I'm very active, in a 3 year intensive program to be come a certified lay catechist, big into choir, etc. But I make it a point to not talk about specific beliefs unless the other person brings it up. For example, a Baptist coworker big into his church's music ministry asked about my church's music, so I brought in some sheet music to show him. Or we talk about our respective Sunday school classes, what we're studying, etc. We rarely get into the "Baptist have X take on this and the Orthodox is Y."

See I would have no issue discussing things like that, and would encourage a friend to not hesitate to share what is such a big portion of her life and focus - just like I would welcome being asked about my druidry or herbalism studies. And actually I have no qualms with having an intelligent discussion on the differences of religions and paths. No, with the one friend we've deteoriated to the point of literally every 3rd sentence goes something like "God will take care of us all!" and "It's in God's hands now!" (um, if I order popcorn or not?). I asked about a situation with her ex, what had happened during an event not too long ago and her reply was something along the lines of "it doesn't matter what happens because I have FAITH that God WILL prevail!!". Y'know, that's great, but did he pass his breathalizer, kwim? I seriously could not have a conversation with her - and I've known her for over 20 yrs! When I finally told her she was pushing too hard she snapped back that she refused to stifle how she feels about her god. But yet even though she knew that we didn't go to church or support organized religion, this was never an issue until she figured out we weren't of her faith. This really may cause the end of our friendship. She's always been the most tolerant of people so yeah, this whole type of reaction concerns me.

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Not all Christians believe in free will, actually. I don't. But certainly most Christians, if not all, would agree you can't force someone into the Christian faith; and most would also agree that pestering someone by talking loudly about church isn't a likely evangelical method either. I don't suppose the people in question have thought it through logically; it's probably more of a nervous reaction.

So what happened with that whole Adam & Eve thing? If he hadn't given 'man' free will, they would not have been able to eat the apple would they? (ok this digresses I know, sorry!)

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by SunshineJ

See I would have no issue discussing things like that, and would encourage a friend to not hesitate to share what is such a big portion of her life and focus - just like I would welcome being asked about my druidry or herbalism studies. And actually I have no qualms with having an intelligent discussion on the differences of religions and paths. No, with the one friend we've deteoriated to the point of literally every 3rd sentence goes something like "God will take care of us all!" and "It's in God's hands now!" (um, if I order popcorn or not?). I asked about a situation with her ex, what had happened during an event not too long ago and her reply was something along the lines of "it doesn't matter what happens because I have FAITH that God WILL prevail!!". Y'know, that's great, but did he pass his breathalizer, kwim? I seriously could not have a conversation with her - and I've known her for over 20 yrs! When I finally told her she was pushing too hard she snapped back that she refused to stifle how she feels about her god. But yet even though she knew that we didn't go to church or support organized religion, this was never an issue until she figured out we weren't of her faith. This really may cause the end of our friendship. She's always been the most tolerant of people so yeah, this whole type of reaction concerns me.

Hmm...I asked because I've know a good number of folks for whom any mention of even a church/religion-related events sets them off. Something as (seemingly) bland as "I've got choir practice tonight" or "I'm singing at wedding this weekend" when asked by a coworker what I was up to for an evening or weekend, would result in a tirade about their ideas concerning the "wrongs" of organized religion. It just wasn't Christianity. One guy even went after a good friend's Hinduism (Hindu friend who was also an Indian immigrant). Guy would sit on the phone at work and loudly berate his mother, a pretty conservative Catholic, for going to Mass (the entire office heard this). I could go on and one, but these are just several examples. Even the most inclusive, progressive Christianity was too repressive for these folks. Ugh. I learned that I had to really edit what I would say to the coworkers. "Oh, just busy, lots of running around" or "Projects around the house."

[Smokering]

So what happened with that whole Adam & Eve thing? If he hadn't given 'man' free will, they would not have been able to eat the apple would they? (ok this digresses I know, sorry!)

I believe God ordained the Fall.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I believe God ordained the Fall.

Why?

[RiverSky]

I think that there is a lot of negativity towards paganism amongst many Christians.

I heard a story of something that happened in a neighboring county. A popular pastor in town told his congregation that if they were consorting with pagans or wiccans, they would go to hell. Well, a number of members of the largest inclusive homeschool group in the area (inclusive meaning all homeschoolers welcome, regardless of religion or lack thereof, etc.) went to his church and heard that sermon. They queried the leader of the homeschool group, wondering what the leader would do if a pagan or wiccan family tried to join and the leader said they accept everyone, so there was a mass exodus of these Christian families leaving the homeschool group.

Obviously, not all Christians would do that but certainly, those Christians CLAIM that all Christians should be like that (or are, erroneously). It tends to be the most exclusive Christians who speak up, too, you know? The quiet, accepting, friendly Christians tend to be more quiet about it all.

[Smokering]

Why?

It's probably a subject for another thread, but briefly: because I believe that's what the Bible teaches. That God is sovereign over man's will, that He works all things according to His purpose, that nothing He created is non-contingent, etc. It ties into predestination and... stuff. Complicated stuff that would take this thread way off course. If you're really curious, PM me or start a new thread.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Smokering

It's probably a subject for another thread, but briefly: because I believe that's what the Bible teaches. That God is sovereign over man's will, that He works all things according to His purpose, that nothing He created is non-contingent, etc. It ties into predestination and... stuff. Complicated stuff that would take this thread way off course. If you're really curious, PM me or start a new thread.

Thanks for that brief explanation. I would actually like to learn more, but I'm afraid I don't have time....I'm trying so hard to concentrate on work, but these religious discussions are so much more interesting!

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I believe God ordained the Fall.

I'm lost then I guess. Why would God plan out something that would end up with people forever being penalized? (See, like I said, I question waay too much LOL!)

[lilyka]

no you don't. Lots and lots of people do not believe in predestination to this extent. Some don't believe it at all. questioning or not.

[Smokering]

SunshineJ: Nothing wrong with questioning, although I don't want to take this thread too far OT. The "why" is best answered by saying that God in His omniscience decided a universe which contained evil would ultimately be better than one which did not - some philosophers have suggested due to the presence of redemption, or because God's attributes of wrath and justice would be exercised more fully, thus revealing His character (argued to be the highest good). But I'm not sure anyone has a watertight answer to "why". Personally I just trust God knows what He's doing, and I think that's the attitude of many Calvinists.

Just as food for thought: Arminianism (free-willism, if you like: Calvinism's "opposite") doesn't avoid this issue either. Freedom is usually conceived of in terms of possible worlds (call it possible situations, or alternative possibilities, if "possible worlds" sounds too scifi). As in, you have freedom to choose (metaphysically speaking) if possible worlds exist in which you could choose an alternative. Arminians believe God has foreknowledge, and also that he upholds all things in some sense. So God could have chosen to instantiate a possible world in which Adam and Eve freely chose not to take the apple. He could have also instantiated a possible world in which everybody always freely chose not to sin - a perfect world. But He didn't. So Arminianism hardly lets God off the hook for creating the damned, allowing evil into the world and so on.

[anniegirl]

What an interesting conversation!

Originally Posted by RiverSky

I think that there is a lot of negativity towards paganism amongst many Christians.

Yes, definitely. I lost my faith quite a while ago, but I grew up in an evangelical community. As a youth we made constant jokes about pagans and paganism. I don't think I even knew anything about paganism at the time, just that we were taught to associate pagan with "bad" or "wrong". The people I grew up around, the kids I was friends with, were (mostly) really good, caring people. But there was definitely a lot of intolerance and ignorance.

Bluegoat makes a good point: of course there are jerks of all stripes. AND in a country where the most popular religion is evangelical Christianity...well there's going to be a disproportionate number of evangelical jerks simply because there are more Christians in general. And a lot of times it doesn't necessarily mean that person is a "jerk", but woefully ignorant and fearful of different faiths.

marimara said:

It's like living *in the closet*.

Yes, this is very true too! I'm still pretty close with a few conservative Christians from past, but I'm careful to not discuss religion/faith with them or my lack of faith and religion. I think most of them know that I've "fallen away", but I haven't discussed details with them. I understand that for a lot of Christians one of the scariest things to hear about is a fellow Christian losing their faith.

A lot of evangelicals' obnoxious behavior really does come from them desiring to be good caring people. So my avoidance of the topic is two-fold: I don't wish to cause them distress over my lack of faith and while I understand the obnoxious behavior usually comes from a good place, it's still obnoxious! All of that definitely leads to me being "in the closet".

Interestingly, when I make new friends who are religious, I feel much more comfortable being honest about my lack of faith because they never knew before when I was religious. Also, I find that when I say "I lost my faith" they react with pity or sadness, but if I say "I'm an atheist" it puts them on the defensive. It's all very fascinating to me.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by anniegirl

Interestingly, when I make new friends who are religious, I feel much more comfortable being honest about my lack of faith because they never knew before when I was religious. Also, I find that when I say "I lost my faith" they react with pity or sadness, but if I say "I'm an atheist" it puts them on the defensive. It's all very fascinating to me.

I'v noticed that too, about if I mention the lack of faith. They can't comprehend that by finally allowing myself to quit forcing something that just was never there and following my instincts and my heart that I'm in a much better place. I never had that "fulfilling joy" with Christianity and frankly thought it was a trumped up load of bunk until I became pagan and realized it for myself. While as a former Christian I understand the perspective they are coming from, it's also a bit insulting - but it's also something not worth getting worked up over and I let it roll.

[TzippityDoulah]

b/c some people are nosy know-it-alls who think their religion gives them a reason to talk down to others.

(is that too snarky? lol)