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Slightly stressed UK mother - please help

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hi, this is the (long) basics of my story, and I'm really torn about what to do for the best. I obviously don't want to see my son in pain but an operation seems so drastic, and EVERYONE seems to give a different opinion.

The text below is mainly taken from an email that I have this week sent to a private paediatric urologist that I am hoping to make an appointment with, and gives pretty much all the details..

My little boy has just turned two, and has had recurrent problems with balanitis (sore penis tip and painful peeing) from about the age of 15 months. He started off with one infection that was treated with antibiotics. He was then fine for a while but had another bad bout of it in May/June 09 time where it seemed to come and go for weeks and various antibiotics were tried. He has since been fine again, up until last week where he was in pain whilst trying to urinate, and he is currently taking Augmentin (co-amoxiclav) for this.

I've been reading a lot about various conditions, and getting a lot of mixed messages from the NHS about whether any drastic action is needed.

One of my GPs is of the opinion that if I can't pull the foreskin back completely by now (which I can't - nowhere near in fact), then he definitely needs to be circumcised, but general consensus from the rest of my GPs is that he doesn't need circumcision at the moment.

A paediatrician he saw during one bout of balanitis said that it was quite normal to have occasional infections while he was going through some developmental changes "down below" with the skin cells breaking down etc. He said he may need a course of antibiotics occasionally, but what's the big deal in that.

I then got referred to a urologist (not paediatric) who looked in his nappy for about 2 seconds and told me he had "practically no hole" and that he needed circumcision.

He is currently on the waiting list (even though I haven't heard anything so far) to be circumcised but I am really undecided about whether or not it is actually necessary. The urologist was very unfriendly, didn't really answer any of my questions and just made me feel bad about questioning whether or not the circumcision was needed.

I have found a LOT of websites that oppose circumcision in toddlers unless its an absolute last resort. They seem to suggest that all children develop at different rates and there is no real definite age by which you should be able to pull the foreskin back completely, and also that children might go through a bit of pain and discomfort every now and then, but that its all "part of the process" and if left well alone to develop normally they would most likely end up not needing to be circumcised. They also talk a lot about balanitis and phimosis being really commonly misdiagnosed, and the whole thing has just left me with lots of questions.

Generally he is fine, with the odd flair up of discomfort/redness, which generally rectifies itself. I only take him to the GP when it is painful for him to urinate. I have been told that his foreskin is quite tight and the opening quite narrow, but I'm confused as to whether this is actually normal for a 2 year old, and is something that will resolve itself as he matures.

Sometimes when his penis is kind of "erect" it looks like his opening is really small and that the skin is really strained tight over the erection (as it doesn't retract), and then at other times, especially in the bath, the foreskin opening seems to be quite loose and what would appear to me to be normal.

One of my GP's prescribed some steroid cream that I could apply to try and stretch the foreskin so that it can be fully retracted, but again, I am not sure whether the skin should be able to do that by 2 years old anyway.

I was just hopeful for any advice you can offer at all - I really just want to know what is and isn't normal, and what my actual options are (as I know there are other things that can be done besides circumcision).

As a mum who is getting quite desperate about the whole thing, I very much look forward to hearing from anyone with their opinions.

The unfriendly urologist told me that everytime he got balanitis and I treated it with antibiotics that it would leave scar tissue (this would get worse each time) and that this would cause problems (eventually phimosis) as well.

Another thing I am not sure about is whether I am cleaning it properly. He has a bath (plain water with a tiny blob of unperfumed soap on a sponge for the armpits, hands and feet) and whilst under the water I just give the penis a wipe with the sponge and gently open up the skin with my fingers. I wouldn't say that I am retracting it as such (and certainly not forcefully), but sometimes its like the skin at the tip has stuck together so I just gently open it to expose a little bit of the glands underneath - but again I don't know whether this is helping or hindering...

Thanks for any advice, and sorry for the massive post.

Loufrank x
post #2 of 20
I've only got a second but I want to post this link to the functions of the foreskin. The opening contains a specialized set of muscles. It is a sphincter, and just like the anus, is often tight when not needing to be open fo rthe passage of urine. At this point in development, the only function of the foreskin is to protect the glans (head) and to allow the passage of urine. The foreskin does not need to retract until it begins to have sexual function (and some men don't retract ever and they are just fine. There are ways to encourage retraction in post puberty men that don't involve cutting).

Note, this is in two parts. I can't find the link to the video as one piece.
http://vodpod.com/watch/718259-the-p...f-the-foreskin
post #3 of 20
I can feel with you, I'm a bit stressed out on a similar issue with my 9yo son.

I don't really have a lot of "advice" here but I'd suggest you get a second opinion by a pediatric urologist you feel comfortable with. After all, circumcision isn't reversible!

I know that in Germany some urologists correct phimosis with a triple incision (the principle seems to be making some room at the foreskin "exit" but leaving the foreskin in place). Obviously, I have no idea whether this would be an option in your case but I'm still telling you so that you know that circumcision might not be the only possible "plan of action".
post #4 of 20
I can't give you much advice, but I will say that I have two intact boys. DS1 is almost 17, and hung around the house naked occasionally until he was 8. He wasn't retractable by then, and has never had any trouble. I have no idea when, or if, he became retractable. DS2 is 4.5. He became retractable earlier this year, and enjoyed showing us all his "new trick" for a few weeks. So....years of difference between the two.

I've never opened the skin of his foreskin even a little bit. That seems very counterproductive to me, as the foreskin is protecting the glans. I think if it were meant to be pulled back, it wouldn't be fused in the first place.
post #5 of 20
The average age of retraction is somewhere after TEN years old. Most boys are retractable by the end of puberty. Your son does not need to be circumcised. My 7 year old has exactly the same kind of foreskin you describe on your toddler -- except that I've never seen his glans since I've never tried to retract him. I do know, however, that he has tried in the bathtub without success.

Have you read about the normal symptoms of separation? Has he been tested to see if it's simply yeast? With the number of times he's been on antibiotics, I'd be shocked if he didn't have a yeast overgrowth. Is he in diapers, and are they cloth? Are you currently in the UK seeing these doctors or in the States? If you're in the UK I'm surprised you're getting this amount of ignorant "advice."
post #6 of 20
I would stop cleaning his penis with a soapy sponge. Soap can really irritate the genitals in young children. I know I had severe irritation from soap as a small child. My mother had me wash that area with soap at every bath, although it did not become irritated after every cleaning, if soap gets in the wrong place, it will cause redness and pain. At his age all you need to do is clean the penis with water. There's no need to expose any of the glans. The penis is self cleaning in young children. Since you're using soap on other parts of him still, i would have him rinse his penis with fresh water when his bath is over to make sure there's no residue left over.
post #7 of 20
It sounds like a yeast infection. Treat it the same way women treat them, with something like monistat. Antibiotics probably caused it and will make it worse.

It's perfectly normal for a 2yo not to be retractable. As long as urine passes then the opening is wide enough. Drs attempting to retract it at his age can cause damage, such as infection or more serious things like paraphimosis.

Steroid creams are for adults only and are meant to be used in conjunction with stretching exercises that are highly inappropriate to do to young children.

Over cleaning during baths is irritating and can lead to yeast infection.
post #8 of 20
What you're doing is retracting, and it's unnecessary regardless of whether you're doing it forcefully or not. Cut out the soap and just wipe the outside like a finger. He doesn't need to be retractible right now. Every time you retract him, you're possibly introducing infection to the area and it's very likely the cause of his problems.
post #9 of 20


No need to do anything to the penis at all except wipe poop off of it from base to tip, if it gets dirty. Pulling apart the skin introduces bacteria and can encourage infection.

As others said, it is perfectly normal for your 2 year old not to retract. His non-retractile foreskin is what protects his penis from infection. Don't retract it, make sure that no one else does, just rinse with water and no soap, and make sure that if any infection is present now it is treated. Oh, and get him acidophilous to address any yeast that may be present.
post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thank you so much...

...for your helpful replies.

So when the skin looks like its all stuck and fused together, that's normal? I did not realise that - and the advice I have had from every doctor is to pull the skin back as far as it will comfortably go to clean the tip in the bath. It is so annoying to get advice from actual doctors and its wrong!

Also, just wanted to reiterate, I clean the penis in the plain water with a soap free sponge as I wash the penis first. I used the Simple soap after for the other bits.

He has had thrush before, usually after antibiotics and sometimes during teething when his urine and poo is stronger. I have always treated with Canesten which I think is the UK equvilent for thrush treatment, its just a cream you can buy over the counter. When applying this is it safe to put it all over the penis including the tip? I have never had thrush so I don't know what's correct. I have used Daktacort before but I think that's a lot stronger as I could only get it on prescription.

He has a follow up GP appointment on Friday after getting the antibiotics last week, should I ask them to test for yeast? What would this involve? Will the thrush cream alone sort out a yeast problem or would something else need to be used?

Also, someone mentioned acidophilous, is this something I should use after antibiotics?

To answer olive, yes I am in the UK and he is in disposable diapers. He has been treated for thrush before but has never been tested for yeast.

One other thing I forgot to mention, my DS seems to hate having his diaper off. He gets used to it after a while, but at first he seem really irritated and walks around with his penis clamped between his legs! I dont know whether this is proper irritation or he just doesn't like the sensation of being diaper free. Its always cold here so he only really had naked time occasionally in the summer.

Thanks again for all your replies ladies, its been very informative.
post #11 of 20
As far as I know (and I don't have a medical background), acidophilus is a kind of useful bacteria which reside in our intestinal tracts.
Acidophilus will keep yeast grow in check. Antibiotics don't only kill the "bad germs" but will also kill the useful bacteria. As a result, you (or in this case your child) might develop a yeast infection.
(Women can get vaginal yeast infections quite easily after the use of antibiotics. This can be especially challenging in breastfeeding mothers - an antibiotic treatment for a mastitis can lead to thrush afterwards - yikes!)
As yeast needs moisture and sugar to grow it helps to get air to the affected area (especially disposables make a wonderful breeding ground...). Eliminating (or at least significantly reducing) sugar and dairy from your childs diet can help, too.

Again: I don't have a medical background, maybe someone else can explain it better.
post #12 of 20

Advice

Lou, this page shows normal foreskin development:
http://www.kidshealth.org.nz/index.p...page/pi_id/266

It is hard to know what you mean by balanitis. Balanitis usually refers to infection of candida bacteria on the glans (head). If you cannot see the glans penis, it is probably incorrect to call it balanitis. If it is the foreskin itself, it is called balanoposthitis. It is hard to know what is actually wrong (if anything) without seeing it for myself. Maybe you could provide a picture if you have a digital camera or phone camera: http://imagevenue.com/

I doubt it is what most informed doctors would call true phimosis. Unfortunately, there are not that many images of baby penises for you to compare. This page shows pictures of the difference between true phimosis caused by BXO, and normal non-retractability:
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...w10610_fm.html

Note: Balanitis Xerotica Obliterans (BXO) is different to normal balanitis.

So unless he has BXO - which is characterised by a hardened sclerotic ring around the penis - he doesn't have true pathological phimosis. It is just normal development.

Steroid creams are a definite no-no as these may permanently change the skin's structure. You want to be careful about causing scar tissue. Scar tissue is inelastic meaning it is unlikely to retract easily. Steroid creams should only be prescribed to adults as a last resort for their true phimosis.

I say leave it be. Be careful about wiping. The skin produces natural oils which serve as protection. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaper_rash
Wiping removes the oils and leaves the skin open to colonisation by pathogenic bacteria such as Candida.

It is worth noting that there are millions of bacteria on the skin. Most are harmless. The anti-biotics may actually kill off the healthy normal flora of bacteria as well. Hence why I always say - if you can - leave it to the body to sort it out on it's own. Certain strains of E Coli are the only bacteria seen in urinary tract infections (note: he doesn't have a urinary tract infection). What he has is probably just nappy rash/Candida infection. So I doubt this case is serious or anything for you to get worried about.

It is beneficial for him not to be in a diaper. Diapers can mean a prolonged exposure to wetness and little air, which can encourage a rash, and bacteria to colonise.

Diet is also important for his natural defences. Breastfeeding has been shown to help a lot with the babies immune system and prevent diaper rash.

My advice is to leave it be. Don't apply any creams anti-biotics or otherwise at this stage. Get your GP to do a test for yeast (via a quick swab) at the next appointment. By the time the test comes back hopefully it will have sorted itself out and you won't need to do anything. It goes without saying, you definitely do not need a circumcision
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by loufrank View Post
...for your helpful replies.
So when the skin looks like its all stuck and fused together, that's normal? I did not realise that - and the advice I have had from every doctor is to pull the skin back as far as it will comfortably go to clean the tip in the bath. It is so annoying to get advice from actual doctors and its wrong!

Yes, it is very normal for the skin to be fused together at this stage of development. I'm so sorry for the unhelpful and counterproductive advice that you've gotten. To be honest, I'm surprised, because I thought that the UK of all places would give out correct intact care advice!
post #14 of 20
Well I am a bit surprised that UK dr's are this foreskin ignorant. I thought the Dr. in the USA where the only ones so far wrong on intact care

Never try to push the foreskin back never allow anyone else to do so either. The only one who is allowed to do this is your ds when he is ready. The foreskin is fused to the glans like the fingernail to the nail bed over time this gradually releases. As this happens the tip of the foreskin becomes looser as well. The avg. age this happens is 10.5 though boys can start to retract at any time between birth and adulthood. When your ds retracts that is the normal age for him. Steroid cream should never be used until puberty is well established and your ds is complaining of issues with not being retractable. If he isnt complaining there isnt a problem.

The tip of the foreskin is a sphincter like the anus and when not in use clamps down tight to keep out bad stuff germs, poo etc.

Here is a link you might find helpful http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=764732 It talks about normal seperation and when it isnt normal and what to do or not do in either case.

It really dosnt surprise me that your ds has had issues with a red tip and a bit of pain if you have been retracting like that. It causes damage since the skin is not ready to do that.

Bottom line leave his penis alone and dont allow anyone else to even touch it.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006 View Post
To be honest, I'm surprised, because I thought that the UK of all places would give out correct intact care advice!
Me too, that's why I asked. I think if I were the OP, I might try to do some shopping around for a different doctor.
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by loufrank View Post
He has had thrush before, usually after antibiotics and sometimes during teething when his urine and poo is stronger. I have always treated with Canesten which I think is the UK equvilent for thrush treatment, its just a cream you can buy over the counter. When applying this is it safe to put it all over the penis including the tip? I have never had thrush so I don't know what's correct. I have used Daktacort before but I think that's a lot stronger as I could only get it on prescription.
Trush and yeast are basically the same thing. The same kind of cream should work, and you can just spread it all over his penis. It's possible you need something stronger than the OTC cream, but I'd start there.

Quote:
He has a follow up GP appointment on Friday after getting the antibiotics last week, should I ask them to test for yeast? What would this involve? Will the thrush cream alone sort out a yeast problem or would something else need to be used?
Any time you bring him in with any kind of suspected infection, the Dr should swab the outside of the penis, and do a culture. It's very easy to look at a red swollen penis and px antibiotic, but there are many possible causes. It might be the separation process starting, which is usually painless but some boys causes minor swelling, irritation, etc. It could be diaper rash. It could be trauma. It could be yeast, which is made worse by antibiotics.

Quote:
Also, someone mentioned acidophilous, is this something I should use after antibiotics?
It helps restore the natural flora balance and PH.

Quote:
One other thing I forgot to mention, my DS seems to hate having his diaper off. He gets used to it after a while, but at first he seem really irritated and walks around with his penis clamped between his legs! I dont know whether this is proper irritation or he just doesn't like the sensation of being diaper free. Its always cold here so he only really had naked time occasionally in the summer.
This would tend to cause yeast too. It loves the dark moist warm environment inside a diaper. It could also just be causing him diaper rash.
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by loufrank View Post
My little boy has just turned two, and has had recurrent problems with balanitis (sore penis tip and painful peeing) from about the age of 15 months. He started off with one infection that was treated with antibiotics. He was then fine for a while but had another bad bout of it in May/June 09 time where it seemed to come and go for weeks and various antibiotics were tried. He has since been fine again, up until last week where he was in pain whilst trying to urinate, and he is currently taking Augmentin (co-amoxiclav) for this.
How do they know it was infections? Was a culture done? What if it was just the normal (and sometimes painful) separation process? My son - now 2.5 - went through a long separation process that came and went for about 5 months. Sometimes he just complained that he hurt, sometimes the tip was red and sore looking, and most of the time while it was happening he cried when he urinated because the urine was coming in contact with raw skin underneath. Each episode only lasted about 3-4 days, then would reappear a few months later. Now he's fully retractible.

Quote:
One of my GPs is of the opinion that if I can't pull the foreskin back completely by now (which I can't - nowhere near in fact), then he definitely needs to be circumcised
He's totally normal to not be retractible yet. For some that doesn't even happen till puberty, but most boys are by 10. Your GP is very out of date.

Quote:
A paediatrician he saw during one bout of balanitis said that it was quite normal to have occasional infections while he was going through some developmental changes "down below" with the skin cells breaking down etc.
I'd argue that this is incorrect. I don't think it's normal to have INFECTIONS during these developmental changes, but it is normal to have some kind of IRRITATION and sometimes even pain during these developmental changes.

Quote:
He said he may need a course of antibiotics occasionally, but what's the big deal in that.
The big deal is that antibiotics create antibiotic resistance when they are overused, and can cause yeast problems.

Quote:
I then got referred to a urologist (not paediatric) who looked in his nappy for about 2 seconds and told me he had "practically no hole" and that he needed circumcision.
Avoid that urologist. He has no idea.

Quote:
Generally he is fine, with the odd flair up of discomfort/redness, which generally rectifies itself.
If it rectifies itself, that's a good sign it's separation. An infection wouldn't heal up so quickly.

Quote:
I only take him to the GP when it is painful for him to urinate.
Again, separation can also cause this pain as the urine stings the skin in places where the foreskin has released.

Quote:
I have been told that his foreskin is quite tight and the opening quite narrow, but I'm confused as to whether this is actually normal for a 2 year old, and is something that will resolve itself as he matures.
It will resolve itself. The foreskin acts as a sphincter. When it is not necessary for it to be open, it is shut up tightly. When it's time to urinate, it opens. And as he reaches puberty the sphincter will become more and more elastic and widen significantly.

Quote:
Sometimes when his penis is kind of "erect" it looks like his opening is really small and that the skin is really strained tight over the erection (as it doesn't retract), and then at other times, especially in the bath, the foreskin opening seems to be quite loose and what would appear to me to be normal.
Same with all my boys. When they have an erection, the skin is very tight and pulled taught and the hole is barely noticeable. In the bath and when peeing, the hole is open and loose.

Quote:
One of my GP's prescribed some steroid cream that I could apply to try and stretch the foreskin so that it can be fully retracted, but again, I am not sure whether the skin should be able to do that by 2 years old anyway.
You are right. A 2 year old does NOT need steroids!!!

Quote:
I just give the penis a wipe with the sponge and gently open up the skin with my fingers.
Do not open up the skin. It's not necessary at all.

Quote:
I just gently open it to expose a little bit of the glands underneath - but again I don't know whether this is helping or hindering...
My vote is hindering. I'd just let it soak and self-clean in the water. What you're doing isn't necessary in the least.

Hope this helps!
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006 View Post
Yes, it is very normal for the skin to be fused together at this stage of development. I'm so sorry for the unhelpful and counterproductive advice that you've gotten. To be honest, I'm surprised, because I thought that the UK of all places would give out correct intact care advice!
Agreed. My sons are 5 and 2, and neither are retractible as far as I know, to be honest I don't worry about it and poke around there, since it's normal for them NOT to be right now (some boys do not retract until the teen years)
post #19 of 20
As was said, stop forcing the skin tube open in any way while submerged.

Further, recognize that the normal natural hygiene of the penis is for sterile urine leaving the body to flush the foreskin interior to the perfect healthy balance.

Leave it alone.

Funny thing is if you were to listen to the terse urologist, you would still have to wait until his situation clears up to then do an ELECTIVE circumcision, all in order to prevent a later ELECTIVE circumcision. Not funny. Sad.
post #20 of 20
Lou, You have recieved a LOT of good advice. I, too, am shocked that you have encountered so much ignorance of normal penile development in the U.K. That urologist is not only very uninformed, but also very arrogant.

I am sure your son will be fine if left to develop at his own pace. I would encourage you to go to www.cirp.org/library/normal to put your mind at ease. Should your Ds still not be retractable when he is a teenager, there are many courses of action that will resolve this and preserve all of his foreskin. See: www.cirp.org/library/treatment/phimosis . Note all the articles listed in the references after each section.

I came across the following paper not too long ago that illustrates a new procedure for the treatment of phimosis that looks very promising: www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2490/8/6

I reiterate that your son is perfectly normal. I have provided the sites above to show that a circumcision is never warranted - that in older males who suffer from a tight foreskin there are solutions that do not involve the loss of their foreskin.

Good luck - and try to avoid those doctors !!
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