Homeschool or unschooling gifted kids

[naturegirl7]

Anyone do this? How is it workng out? Drawbacks? Advantages?

I ask because we are really leaning towards unschooling as DS approaches the age to started K. He is 4.5 and would be able to enroll in K this fall.

We don't do any sort of preschool or formal homeschool with him - more "unschooling" - until recently I didn't even realize there was a term for what we were doing.

I provide lots of open ended play stuff, creative and arty stuff, building stuff - and just sort of follow his lead. As he shows an interest in things, we try to provide books, activities, art projects, etc that will feed that interest.
He learned/mastered his letters around 12-15 m simply thru readng books together and thru playing with fridge magnets and has been spelling words on teh fridge since he was 2. He showed interest in writing shortly after, and we got a dry erase board and a magna doodle, he enjoys working independently and does not want assistance or guidance, but he does want you right there at his side watching him, or occasionally demonstrating - but mainly there to witness and praise

He is already advanced with reading and science -we have not tested him so I have no idea how advanced, reading approx 2nd to 3rd grade level on his own and late elem level life (or higher?) sciences - he writes well, spells and reads fluently (reading is better/more advanced). he comprehends amazingly well for so young. He is obsessed with science - that is his true love right now. He loves biology, physics, space, etc - life sciences especially at the moment and can describe how the body systems and organs function in great detail. He is amazng with mazes and puzzles but has no real interest in basic math lke adding or subtracting. geography and map reading are another passion - I thnk he tends to be very tactile, visual, and spatial, yet he is an excellent reader....

Anyway, he gets bored and frustrated very easily. He needs to be independent when doing activities, but needs lots of emotional availabilty and praise at the same time....I am afraid that he will have a hard time adjusting in a "normal" elem. school environment - especially if he is not being challenged (he will refuse to do something if he feels it is "baby stuff"). I would like to continue to allow him to learn on his own and build more of an incidental knowledge and skill base. Plus there is no way any teacher could provide him with the praise and attention he craves and needs.

Seems like the best course of active is to continue to do what we are already doing. But I am also really nervous. I was in the gifted program myself as a child and advanced classes startng in early elem, and was still bored to tears. nothing challenged me and I barely had to put forth any effort (even in the advanced classes). I became a perfectionist but also super lazy about learning at the same time, especially as I got older. I had no real study skills or discipline when I went off to college, I had never needed them before. I had trouble in college, mainly cuz I was bored even then - I didn't need to go to class to pass, but then would gets points off for missng classes, or get kicked out of a class/failed for not showing up - but I still feel that is BS - why should I have to show up for lecture when I am not getting anything out of it, it is a waste of time and energy. Isn't that horrible? I did way better with online classes that let me speed along at my own pace. But I digress again.

Basically I am super conflicted over the unschooling approach - will he be more motivated and more disciplined about learning cuz he is self guided or will he be even lazier than I am?? This makes me more nervous that the social aspect of homeschooling. Would love to hear some input from others....TIA!

[no5no5]

We are in pretty much the same position as you, so we don't have the experience you're probably hoping to find. I'm thinking about it a lot, though, so I'll share some thoughts.

First, when it comes to a child who is highly intelligent and highly motivated, and who has proven that by self-teaching far beyond what would ordinarily be expected by a child of that age, it just seems like common sense that you wouldn't want to go and change things. Don't fix it if it ain't broke, right?

Second, I think kids are born with a natural tendency to persevere. Think of how frustrating it must be to not have control over your limbs and your vocal chords, but kids keep trying & trying until they learn to walk & talk. So for me it's a question of how to preserve this drive, not how to instill it. I know I lost my drive when, despite hours & years of dedication to my assigned schoolwork, I was not rewarded by learning anything or any hope of learning anything.

Perfectionism is another issue altogether, but I think it is one that can be dealt with in either a schooling or homeschooling or unschooling situation.

Anyway, this is all just my opinion. It might be worth cross-posting in the US/HS forums.

[Marimami]

DD is 5 and would be in K this year. She too is a very independent learner who needs the social/emotional support. She really likes to have us nearby.

We are basically unschoolers. I say that because we're not radical. We are a TV-free household and don't do any computer learning with her. But, we have slowly started introducing some brief video-based podcast learnings with her.

We are following her lead. As it's turned out, her focus and interest this fall has been largely surround space and childbirth. However, she has dabbled in comparative religion, horse evolution, Mayan culture, etc.. You get the idea--not things you normally run into with standard K curriculum programs! All things scientific appeal to her but so do social studies/culture issues.

She also is an avid and voracious artist and crafter. She is constantly creating something. She loves doing arts/crafts with me, but she wants to create in parallel. She loves for me to demonstrate a new tool or technique and then leave her to it. So, I often just get out a bunch of new materials with a plan in my head as to what I'm going to do and then let her do her own thing. She often humors me and does one thing like I'm doing and then goes off on her own creation, which are almost universally more open-minded and creative than mine were!

She spends a good deal of time playing the piano and other instruments. She takes lessons and enjoys practicing but she also enjoys figuring out songs she hasn't officially covered in her lessons yet or figuring out how to play a song (currently Jingle Bells and Deck the Halls are favorites) on other instruments (harmonica, bells, xylophone, etc.)

She also takes horseback riding and seems to be doing quite well with it. She also does a laid back gymnastics class which is just loads of fun for her.

As you can see, nothing about her learning topics are things that she would be getting in a school setting. We had her in a cool, holistic private school for part time preschool and tried pre-K last year. It was, for many reasons, a huge failure. The teachers thought she was doing wonderfully, but I could just see her spirit and zest for learning withering away.

It's funny because I see many parents really pushing kids her age, even in homeschooling, and I start to panic, wondering if we're doing the right things. But, then I see her creations, listen to her questions, and just experience life with her. Then, I know.

She's asynchronous in many ways, but I feel like we are providing her with the best environment to gently develop those skills in which she is lacking while simultaneously really getting great experience and exposure to things she truly loves.

So, for now, we are all very, very happy with this arrangement.

Good luck!! The homeschool/unschool forum here is wonderful too! I get much of the support I need in these two forums!

Holli

[Encinalien]

It's a funny story. When I was pregnant a friend of mine was sorta unschooling her then kindergartener ds. Doing waldorfy unschooly lessons like taking a few sticks to make a letter A on the ground during a nature walk, taking a bag of sand to write a HUGE letter B on the ground then having the boy walk all the way around it.

When the end of year state tests came around she said some of the unschool mothers in her mixed homeschool playgroup would get frantic and start cramming with worksheets. It was like they were afraid that if the kids failed or failed too many times they would no longer be allowed to homeschool. I don't think that's true. What do they do with the kids who fail in public school, not let them go to public school any more? No. The test is just for statistics and records. That's the point if unschooling- they're supposed to develop all organically on their own timeline. So you could chose to unschool and worry that he might be a slacker, but why? It's supposed to be kind of living on faith in the human survivalism, that they can slack off if they choose and "grow up" and make up for lost time when the time is right, in it's purest form.

Also... My grandpa (not from the gifted gene pool side of my family, but my mom's side of the family were smart too, just not so gifted) but anyway he got his GED the same year I did, when I was sixteen. He's owned his own home, nothing fancy, but very nice, they've owned since before my mom was grown. Deep sea fisherman.

I think that's the other side of unschooling. Everybody wants to let their imagination run wild with that well known story of the kid who learned to read at twelve years old, then went on to graduate from Harvard, and some other stories similar to his. I think the point of unschooling is about supporting someone to be on a path on their own, not pushing them down an alternative path to college.

That point seems to be missed around here sometimes. I keep getting warned that if I don't stop giving ds "academic" lessons at such a young age I'm going to make him burn out early and start to "hate learning". Not only do I not believe that, but I also ain't afraid. If ds wants a long, long acedemic career like I personally like to assume he will, I got his back. If he loses interest in studying and wants to explore other options with his life, I still got his back.

So I'm saying if you're saying "can I unschool and ensure a specific outcome?" I'd say I'm sure you can, I'm sure you're creative enough to, but I think that's the wrong attitude. Just be a homeschooler then. But, um. I always talk so long when I really have an opinion about something. *embarrassed smiley*

But I was saying as a mother you have as much flexibility in raising your child as your finances allow. That friend who unschooled her five year old sent him to a private, I forget if it was waldorf or montessori? But this private school took nature walks and made a big deal about being "child-led" and sounded so great. But they got mad because they were telling a five-year old boy to choose his own activities then getting dissapointed that he was choosing to play rather than study, given the choice. Disappointed:!;!(. That's not what she was paying them for. They're doing something else now.

The point is you're free to try something. And you're free to decide to keep following that method. And you're free to try something else. Reserve the right to change your mind.

Good luck naturegirl. I'll be around. Keep in touch. -,-'-<@
(that's a white rose of friendship)

[kgianforti]

This is basically a cut and paste (of MY post) from the other HSing thread here:

I would also check your state's homeschooling regulations. My state (strict!) requires different subjects to be studied at different grade levels, record keeping and reporting, attendance and standardize testing beginning in 3rd grade, I believe. Maybe it's because I'm new to homeschooling but I don't know how I could be a true unschooler and accomplish all the regulation requirements for my state.

So just make sure what your state requires so you don't get in trouble!!

[no5no5]

I think there is a big difference between recognizing a problem that you yourself have because of your upbringing and trying to avoid creating that problem in your child and trying to push a child down a particular path. I assume the OP was talking about the former. It is true that if you have a particular vision for your child's future, unschooling is not for you. When you unschool, your child is the one who decides what skills and achievements to pursue. It's about trusting your child to choose wisely.

OT: Hablame, in some states there are consequences for homeschooled kids who do not pass yearly tests. Failing to achieve a particular score (especially more than once) may result in supervision by the local school district or even termination of the homeschooling, depending on the state.

[Bird Girl]

It's about trusting your child to choose wisely.

I guess this is my problems with the philosophy of unschooling. You are relying, by definition, on the judgement and foresight of a total novice, and, by extension, saying that if they wind up unprepared to follow their dreams, then it's their fault, by not choosing to prepare at the right time.

I'm not all-knowing, and I'm not all seeing, and I don't have to live my child's life. However, I have gone through 12 years of school and four years of college, and I have the experience and perspective that comes with that. So I see the benefit in learning math facts, and learning to spell, and learning grammar. I see the benefit in playing your scales and arpeggios before you attempt the concerto. I'm willing to use my adult perspective to shape my children's experience, and provide direction to their education.

When you homeschool, you have many benefits. My 7 year old can finish her academic work by noon, and has nothing but time to read, go to the library, play, and dream. I'm willing to fill her mornings with prescriptive activities because I think she does have time and materials to follow her interests.

Also, in my homeschool community, I notice that the parents that seem to be always jabbering at their kid, always defining words for them and, in general interfering in their interactions with others are the unschooling parents. It's like they're convinced that all learning must arise naturally, never be introduced on the parents' schedule, but then they're constantly on the lookout for teachable moments. I have my three hours a day of instruction, and the rest of the time, I can relax, because I don't feel the need to make every single thing be educational.

[no5no5]

I think that part of trusting your child is expecting that your child will learn to trust you as well, and want to learn from your experience. I mean, I am interested in the world, and I want to share with my DD the things that I am interested in. I don't try to find ways to sneak education into our day, but I do feel free to talk about whatever I'm thinking about, whether it is "educational" or not. DH & I are both total nerds, and because we are interested in science and math and social justice (etc.), we talk about those topics. But I also think that there are plenty of unschooling parents who aren't into those things and who don't search for teachable moments (and I wouldn't characterize as unschoolers families who do search for them) whose kids turn out totally fine.

[Marimami]

Who, fundamentally, gets to decide what determines whether a choice has been made wisely? That is the difference (I think) with unschooling. Don't get me wrong; I have yet to go the full tilt into unschooling. As I noted, we are not radical and I still have yet to fully shake my underlying assumptions and agenda. I still have a bucket of things I'm carrying around that I hope she learns this year. But, so far she's been coming at them organically so I've been slowly loosening up.

Plus, I think you're assuming that children won't naturally want to learn things like math facts, how to spell, etc.

On the contrary, DD is very interested in these things. She asks us questions. We work through it together. We had a whole discussion the other day about silent "e" and what it does to other vowels in words, etc. She initiated this conversation as she was working out spelling words and noticed the difference with the short/long vowel sounds. I fully believe that she will remember this more than if I had sat her down and said "today we will learn about silent "e" and use one of the dozens upon dozens of "tricks" to teach the rule.

Just because it's a different style of learning doesn't mean that huge chunks of things are overlooked. They might happen at different times, but who is to say that's better or worse?

Honestly, I like exploring the world with her throughout the day. It's what works for her style of learning. I work full time, but I do it from home. DH is our primary homeschool/unschool parent because he's a SAHD. I love that she just zooms into my office occasionally and asks me things. We have had truly insightful and amazing conversations about a huge variety of topics that never would have come up if we only dealt with these topics officially during a certain time period. It would feel completely artificial to me.

More than anything, for me, unschooling is about understanding your own particular child's style of learning and going with it. DD has actually requested some more structure to help her focus on a few things so she knew she had some dedicated time to work on particular things. So, we helped develop that for her. But, as a very strong-minded, independent learner, it really works best for us to follow her agenda right now.

Holli

[Encinalien]

I'm neither an unschooler or a homeschooler as of yet I'm just a mama, but as such I've begun to think about what these things mean to me. And more than just deciding on a acedemic method the mother must trust that life will find a way, even if that's a bit cliche'.
I was suggesting that beyond "trusting your child to chose wisely" and not omiting large chunks of academic frivolties by allowing them to progress at their own pace, unschooling to me would be placing your trust in your child that they will get what they need in this life. The educational part has been compared to bf'ing on demand-the child will eat what they need if you leave that responsibility to them, in most cases.
I think the spirit of unschooling would have to encompass accepting that the unschooled child could decide to quit school and get a job and start a family at a young age. Weither the acedemic setting up until then had been homeschool, or unschool, or private or public school. The spirit of the law of unschooling would have to allow the choice and accept that lifestyle as the next lesson in school, just as one possibility.
I think that's the mindset that's at the heart of unschooling- it's the child's life to do with as they please, today and tomorrow. We should just be here to help them. If they want to learn they'll learn, even if you put them in a public school. If a parent supports the child's freewill in their own heart but teaches them the ropes so they won't get thrown off balance by life's uncertainties, well the world belongs to them.
Update: my grandpa didn't finish hs but he owns a home and has a retirement and a family. He hit every major milestone IMO. Still hope ds goes and finishes school IMO it probably would have been a great experience. No I don't have it completely figured out yet. I started thinking about these things only at the most three years ago and I'm thinking about a few other things too.

And about the strict homeschool regs, I think they have more to do with hours than grade level. I think they're allowed to fail and still homeschool, even in the strict states.

[Bird Girl]

I'm sort of amused by the notion that being an unschooler means having deep conversations with your kids at all hours of the day, or that it means helping them follow their interests. To me, that's parenting, and all of the parents I know do that. I sometimes pick up a sense, from unschoolers, that the things that they do with their kids are different, somehow, more understanding or more connected than the things that academic homeschooling parents, or, indeed, parents of schooled kids. I haven't found that to be the case.

I do disagree with the notion that kids will just automatically know and choose for themselves to put in the boring work that leads to mastery of important steps. I agree that some will put forth extra effort in some fields. But if my DD got to choose whatever she wanted to practice on her violin, she'd do nothing but play a few fiddle songs, and she'd spend all her school time reading history and writing very seldom and not paying any attention to math. But I don't want to let her specialize at this age; I want her to be able to take up any subject and discover that she already has the requisite skills to go further.

My DD is older than some of your kids, also, I think. There's a difference between the appropriate academic support of a five year old and that of a seven year old.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I'm sort of amused by the notion that being an unschooler means having deep conversations with your kids at all hours of the day, or that it means helping them follow their interests. To me, that's parenting, and all of the parents I know do that.

I've been saying this for years. Unschooling is doing what all good parents do outside of schooling times...

I'm very pleased with how unschooling has worked out for my almost-17 year old. As she grew older, she did sometimes choose for herself to put in the "boring work" that led to mastery... practicing ballet for hours every week, for example. Still, most of her learning has been through passionate and enjoyable study or apparently through osmosis, not through drudgery.

At 5, or at 7? Nope, no boring practice. She just had fun.

[Marimami]

I agree with Dar. In fact, I think that's basically the point of unschooling. It is just part of life/living. Schooling isn't something that happens outside of regular living.

I disagree that there is a large difference between academic support for a 5 year old and 7 year old, particularly here in the gifted forum where I think traditional age ranges are often meaningless.

Holli

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I'm sort of amused by the notion that being an unschooler means having deep conversations with your kids at all hours of the day, or that it means helping them follow their interests. To me, that's parenting, and all of the parents I know do that.

Yes, that's it, exactly. Unschooling is the notion that kids don't need more than loving, attentive parenting to learn and grow. (I know parents who don't do this, but that's another issue.)

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I sometimes pick up a sense, from unschoolers, that the things that they do with their kids are different, somehow, more understanding or more connected than the things that academic homeschooling parents, or, indeed, parents of schooled kids. I haven't found that to be the case.

In theory, having a relationship of mutual trust and respect is the goal of unschooling, and to some extent schooling (of whatever type) can interfere with that. (I am not saying that it always does--but I can say with certainty that it did in my case.) I don't neccessarily think that this would be something visible to an outsider.

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I do disagree with the notion that kids will just automatically know and choose for themselves to put in the boring work that leads to mastery of important steps. I agree that some will put forth extra effort in some fields. But if my DD got to choose whatever she wanted to practice on her violin, she'd do nothing but play a few fiddle songs, and she'd spend all her school time reading history and writing very seldom and not paying any attention to math. But I don't want to let her specialize at this age; I want her to be able to take up any subject and discover that she already has the requisite skills to go further.

I think that one of the things a child learns from being schooled is to give up control of their own intellectual development to others. Schooled kids may not make the same choices that they would have made if they had been unschooled.

As far as the actual work is concerned, I don't see much use in kids learning things that they don't see much use for. If a child can't write well at 5, but has no interest in writing, that's fine. That doesn't mean that the child won't be able to learn (and probably more easily) when she has an interest. And the same goes for math. I know that you think that learning (for example) multiplication facts is important. But I still believe that they are best learned when a child sees a use for them. And if that time does not come until the child is in his teens, I don't see the harm.

And I see the benefit: that if a child is always trusted to learn at her own pace, she will not be afraid to try new things. She will not be afraid to be "behind" and have to work to learn something new. Because she can see that you are not afraid for her--that you trust that she can do whatever she puts her mind to, whenever that happens.

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

My DD is older than some of your kids, also, I think. There's a difference between the appropriate academic support of a five year old and that of a seven year old.

I will defer to Dar on this one. For me this is all theoretical at this point.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

[I]

Also, in my homeschool community, I notice that the parents that seem to be always jabbering at their kid, always defining words for them and, in general interfering in their interactions with others are the unschooling parents. It's like they're convinced that all learning must arise naturally, never be introduced on the parents' schedule, but then they're constantly on the lookout for teachable moments. I have my three hours a day of instruction, and the rest of the time, I can relax, because I don't feel the need to make every single thing be educational.

Ha! This is probably true. I say this as someone who is USish. I am working on it a bit. I think many people who are drawn to USing really love learning (I am not saying others don't) and parents in general probably do have a desire to impart knowledge to our children. Regular HSer get it in 2 or 3 hour blocks - and USers get it in dribs and drabs as it arises.

I will say that because the knowledge is often imparted as a actual event arises (you see a monarch butterfly and are curious where they came from so you look it up) it may be more memorable than sitting at a table while a "teacher" brings up the topic for no apparent reason.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

It's about trusting your child to choose wisely.

I guess this is my problems with the philosophy of unschooling. You are relying, by definition, on the judgement and foresight of a total novice, and, by extension, saying that if they wind up unprepared to follow their dreams, then it's their fault, by not choosing to prepare at the right time.

I have found, as my children have gotten older, that this simply is not true. My kids have goals, and have realised there is certain steps they need to take to reach those goals.

For example: Ds wants to go to University. He does not want to go to HS. He has decided the path he wants to take to get there includes writing the SAT's and perhaps taking (through cyber school) some upper level classes. He also intends to keep a portfolio and go for dual enrollment once he is in grade 11. This is a well researched, sound plan where we live.

He knows that in order to do well on the SAT he is going to have to make sure his math and writing are up to par.

I will say that when my children were younger they did seem kind of aimless and it was worrisome. But this is a concern that is slowly fading.

Kathy

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I do disagree with the notion that kids will just automatically know and choose for themselves to put in the boring work that leads to mastery of important steps. I agree that some will put forth extra effort in some fields. But if my DD got to choose whatever she wanted to practice on her violin, she'd do nothing but play a few fiddle songs, and she'd spend all her school time reading history and writing very seldom and not paying any attention to math. But I don't want to let her specialize at this age; I want her to be able to take up any subject and discover that she already has the requisite skills to go further.

My DD is older than some of your kids, also, I think. There's a difference between the appropriate academic support of a five year old and that of a seven year old.

My kids are mostly older than your dd, though I have one who is younger. We've pretty much radically unschooled. I disagree with you on a number of points.

As you know my kids are all string players. I have found that in an environment of respect and support, they are all totally willing to put in the time on scales, studies, annoying repertoire and technique work on the advice of their teacher. When coercion and adult authority are not used as tools, they seem quite willing to accept the wisdom and experience of the mentors they revere. They make choices in an environment populated by wise and caring adults who are willing to advise and support. Unschooled kids do not learn in a vacuum. If someone they respect says "In my experience it is very important to fix the position of the left thumb of a violinist at an early stage. Here are some exercises that will help you correct yours," they are about 99% likely to head home and work on those exercises.

To me the trust of unschooling means that I trust that my kids are generally doing the best they can given their developmental means and the information they have available. If I disagree with the choices they're making I should give them more information (since I can't change their developmental timetable). And certainly I can advise them if I have knowledge and experience they don't have. As with their violin and viola teachers, in an environment free of coercion they are usually very open-minded and receptive to advice.

To the original poster ... we have found unschooling to be an excellent approach. With the partial exception of handwriting and second-language learning (one or two of the kids have lagged or avoided each of these) they have forged through all the academic expectations of structured schooling with fantastic efficiency. Not to say that the fact that my 11-year-old is happily working through an intermediate algebra textbook is how unschooling success should be measured, but just to reassure you that in my experience academically precocious gifted children who are unschooled tend to remain academically precocious, and tend to learn to self-structure and self-challenge. (Tend to. A certain amount of "vigorous parental facilitation" has been required of late to help my teens work through some of the wrinkles presented by their temperaments.)

Anyway, there's my experience. YMMV.

Miranda

[Encinalien]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=laziness

I can't really talk much today. I lost my voice from the cold weather.
Here's a link to a relevant conversation from a few years back.

[water]

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

Also, in my homeschool community, I notice that the parents that seem to be always jabbering at their kid, always defining words for them and, in general interfering in their interactions with others are the unschooling parents.

I see this all the time. My 4yo DD playing with two other 4yo girls and one of the moms saying,"Oh honey, there are three girls here now! Do YOU know what three plus three is? Let's count it together! Ready? One, two, three..." while the kid is bored and trying to get away and just play already.

But that is an unfair characterization of all unschooling parents of course, although I do see it a bunch in my homeschooling community.

That being said, I think homeschooling is great, wonderful, especially for gifted kids. My DD is not eligible for K until next year, she is reading at a 4th-5th grade level, and doing 2nd grade math right now. On the other hand she can barely form letters - her handwriting is "below" her age level and she is socially a bit immature. School would be a nightmare for her, boring, and yet too demanding socially and in some areas. Since we homeschool she can read and do whatever math she wants, and I can postpone the handwriting until she is more developmentally ready for it, and I can help facilitate her social interactions while she becomes more comfortable around groups of kids.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by water

But that is an unfair characterization of all unschooling parents of course, although I do see it a bunch in my homeschooling community.

It's not only unfair, it's also not unschooly. I know some "natural" or "child-led" homeschoolers who do this sort of thing, but I definitely would not characterize them as unschoolers. DD & I talk about addition often, but only because she brings it up. And certainly not in the middle of a playdate.