Talk to me about Unconditional Parenting

[ThoughtFullMama]

I'm going to be blunt, because I'm hoping it will get me some really honest, blunt replies UP appeals to me. I've done some research on it, and I'm currently reading Alfie's book on it.

Here are my issues with it: I know three families who UP and I see different issues with each one. One family has five kids, and the kids rule the house. They do whatever they want, when they want, including interrupting conversations, which I find rude. The house is a disaster because no one ever 'wants' to clean it, and of course the mother can't do it alone!

Another family has one child, and her son is thirteen and stays up until all hours playing video games and on the internet, unsupervised. That seems obsessive and a bit dangerous.

The third family has three kids, and they are CONSTANTLY playing video games, even at our homeschooling events, they have their little hand-held video games with them. They are literally glued to their screens. It's kind of disturbing; you can barely talk to them. All of the kids also call their parents by their first names, and they seem lost. They don't seem to know what to do when someone tells them they did a good job, or how to react when a grown-up talks to them. They look at other grown-ups besides their parents as if they're crazy. Another thing I find odd is that they don't just come up to their parents and ask them things, they interrupt and then whisper in their parents ear.

BUT - I love the concept of listening to your child's needs, of getting respect and giving respect, of not yelling, etc, etc. Also, I realize that it may appear odd to me because I've never seen families interact in a UP way before.

So, I guess my worry is that my kids will OD on video games, not know how to talk to people, and just generally not have very good boundaries or people skills. I'm NOT saying that all UP families have these issues, I'm just saying what I've noticed in the families that I know. I also don't like the idea of my kids ruling the house.... isn't our job as grown-ups to provide a bit of guidance and wisdom for our kids?

TIA

[spruce]

subbing.

[NellieKatz]

I think that philosophies like UP and others can provide a "refuge" for parents who are abdicating their responsibilities to their children. I mean, the things you describe are pretty unfortunate. And I think that mixed in with all the really conscientious parents who are working real hard to get UP "right," there are also those parents who aren't so much UP as they are neglectful. It's just that they now have a name that they can claim for it. That's just my impression. The same way that mixed in the military with all the real conscientious and good soldiers, are the nuts who just joined up because they like the idea of killing people. I know that sounds like an extreme analogy...but what I mean is a good group can sometimes harbor a few less-than-worthy members. Doesn't matter what type of group.

The ideas in UP are very challenging and cause lots of good parents to stumble and suddenly doubt themselves. It's easy to find oneself walking on eggshells, as you embrace the good UP ideas and let go of your old, more conventional parenting wisdom (for lack of a better word)...you know, the way we were raised...the very way we are trying to get away from. It can feel like you're in a boat that has come untied from the dock, drifting.

It's easy to feel adrift. I'm too tired to go into detail right now but I can identify with your questions. I've been there too.

[mamaluvs]

Thank you for starting this thread. I too am currently reading Kohn's book and it really is resonating in my heart. I have doubts about it too though. Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".

There is a UP support thread that I have read through, I'm going to post there too. Have you read through that thread?

[sgmom]

From the 3 examples given, it doesn't really sound like your friends do any real parenting (sorry for being blunt, but you asked for it! ), never mind unconditional parenting.

UP does mean listening to your child's needs, but boundaries should still be set (ie. average daily bedtimes, or how many hours they spend playing video games). We are still the parents here, and our jobs as parents (according to my definition of UP, anyway) is to guide them when they need direction, and be there for them to help them through emotional upsets (ie. tantrums, etc) rather than punishing the behavior.

Telling your kids "Stop playing video games because I said so", would not be a good example of UP. But directing them to find something more constructive to do with their time (and maybe doing it with them), could be.

You don't have to say "no" to your children if that's what you'd like. But if you raise your child with RESPECT, they will give it to you back threefold. So when you tell them "it's time to go to bed" (or please turn off the tv, or whatever), it won't be a problem.

UP is about partnership. NOT about control.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by mamaluvs

Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".

I don't understand what you mean. What isn't practical? When something is not allowed (perhaps because it's dangerous), of course you can't allow it. You choose your battles. Playing with knives is a BIG no no. So you take the knife away. Battling out something you don't WANT your child to do, then letting her do it anyway is different. That absolutely could cause problems later.

CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES. If you don't have a good reason to say no, then don't say it. If it's truly a concern (like something that needs to be taken away), then gently take the object away (trade for something else if you can), and tell your child "I know you really wanted that" and give her the comfort she needs. Don't coddle the behavior, but let her know that you understand that she's angry and hurting because she couldn't have what she wanted. THAT is UP. Forcing an object out of a child's hand then leaving them to tantrum all by themselves, is not UP.

Don't go into long explanations of why... a 2 year old's brain isn't capable of understanding your explanation.

Did that clarify anything for you?

[ThoughtFullMama]

Originally Posted by sgmom

I don't understand what you mean. What isn't practical? When something is not allowed (perhaps because it's dangerous), of course you can't allow it. You choose your battles. Playing with knives is a BIG no no. So you take the knife away. Battling out something you don't WANT your child to do, then letting her do it anyway is different. That absolutely could cause problems later.

CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES. If you don't have a good reason to say no, then don't say it. If it's truly a concern (like something that needs to be taken away), then gently take the object away (trade for something else if you can), and tell your child "I know you really wanted that" and give her the comfort she needs. Don't coddle the behavior, but let her know that you understand that she's angry and hurting because she couldn't have what she wanted. THAT is UP. Forcing an object out of a child's hand then leaving them to tantrum all by themselves, is not UP.

Don't go into long explanations of why... a 2 year old's brain isn't capable of understanding your explanation.

Did that clarify anything for you?

GREAT example. Thanks for that.

[dogretro]

We practice UP w/ our daughter and I really enjoy it. I also have a BS in child development and worked at a daycare w/ infants and toddlers, so I have used other "methods". I am about to soak in the tub (aaaahhhhhhh..), so I will reply more in-depth to you later!!!

[dogretro]

From your post, it sounds like a distinction needs to be made. It sounds to me like the families you are describing, esp since you know them thru homeschooling group, are actually unschoolers. Unschooling families generally do not have things like chore charts, imposed bedtimes, and limits on screen time. USers are UPers, but not all UPers are USers. It's not a knock on USing, either (I actually rather like the idea), but it sounds like, as pps have said, parents who like a philosophy and are having trouble fitting it to their individual families.

UP does not mean that you do not have limits or rules or that you never say "No" to your kids. It simply means, to me, that you work to achieve family harmony rather than "get your kids to behave" or "get them under control". Kohn gives an example in his book about getting his son's bath ready. Well, the son was not ready to take a bath and a fight between them ensued. Upon reflection, Kohn asked himself if it were really that important for his son to get in the tub right that minute & the answer was no. It could have waited a few minutes until the son finished whatever he was doing and then agreed to come to the tub. UP is a lot about anticipating problems, understanding the whys behind the actions and meeting those needs rather than going along, having a tantrum, and dealing w/ the tantrum.

The very biggest thing I got from reading UP was using social referencing. Parents are taught that if their kid does something mean, like push another kid, they must step in, berate the kid, and then punish them (spanking, time out, taking toys away, etc). This leads to anger, crying, and an upset to the familial harmony. Obviously, my daughter is still young (I use it w/ her, but she doesn't do these things much YET), but I use this w/ my friends' kids all the time: Your kid pushes another kid. Okay, was their a toy dispute? An invasion of space? Keep in mind that you don't need to know exactly why it happened, just that your kid had what s/he felt was a valid reason for pushing. You get down on their level and explain to them why no one is allowed to push each other. You can tell them that pushing hurts, point out that it made the other child cry or get mad. Friends do not push each other. If you need help, you call for Mommy & I will come and help you. Takes about one minute, usually no tears, and instead of your child thinking, "I'd better not push b/c I will get into trouble," they start to think, "I'd better not push b/c then Sally won't want to play w/ me." Now, when you are not in the room, which motivation do you think is most likely to keep your kid from not pushing? If your kid keeps on pushing, you may need to leave the situation *with them*. It tells them that their behaviour is not at all okay, but that you will still always help them and love them, not send them off to the corner alone to figure it out.

A lot of the explaining and lack of punishments is where UP gets nailed by other people, but really, how many times have you seen another parent put their kid in time out over and over again for the same behaviours and the kid just keeps on doing it? Everyone will say the kid just needs more time outs & punishment. No one ever looks at UP and says, Oh, he just needs to be talked to more. Instead of trusting the relationship between parent and child, they want to up the ante and regain control. I see UP as building a trusting relationship rather than seeking to control. Mom isn't mean and tells me what is going on, so I can trust what she says. Johnny stops flipping out when I explain things to him, so I can trust him to not get into trouble.

I know it can sound all lovey-dovey and frou-frou, but once you start to trust yourself & your child to navigate through things TOGETHER, you will find that UP really does "work"! I do still say things to dd like, "Wah-wah," "Stop it," and, "No". I'm still a human in a relationship w/ another human But that, to me, is what is important: she is another human. A smaller, less intelligent, less educated human, but still a human. There are things she cannot have or do, but dh and I have told her (and keep telling her) why not. B/c we have laid this foundation, she WILL often stop doing something when we say No w/out an explanation. She trusts us b/c we have told her before what is going on, not b/c we tapped her hand. Like a pp said, you don't just take the knife away and say, "No," and that's the end of the story. You tell them why & offer a substitute. If they cry, it's okay, they are upset. Crying and yelling are how they express their emotions, NOT behaviours that should be punished. You acknowledge that they wish they could have the sharp knife, but it is dangerous & they could get hurt. It is for grown ups only. You may need to repeat it a few times, and then the discussion is over, even if they keep asking about it. Sometimes they throw a little tantrum, sometimes not. No big deal, they are upset, life is now moving on.

I definitely recommend that if you decide to give UP a shot & you have questions geared towards specific behaviours, check out the UP support thread. Obviously, not all kids are content to just cry; some (like dd) will hit, throw things, shriek their lungs out, run away, etc, and other parents w/ kids who do/did that can offer great advice on how to deal w/ that in a UP manner. Things like parents who have not shown their kids how to greet someone by shaking their hand and saying hello, or when it is not polite to be reading/playing a video game, well, that stuff happens in all kinds of families no matter what type of discipline they use.

[sgmom]

[ThoughtFullMama]

Dogretro~ wow. that was an awesome post thanks!

[coffeegirl]

Hi everyone...Didn't know if I should start a new thread or just add to this one, so I'll add to the existing one and hopefully the mods will move it if it needs it's own thread.

I'm relatively new here. I'm newly married currently 8 weeks pregnant with my first child. So, I don't have much practical expereince to go from, but I've been reading up on some of these different parenting methods. I've studied child development and sociology and different, practical parenting styles. My style so far is to be sort of a "cafeteria parent"...Take what I like from the various philosophies and discard what I don't like. And I acknowledge that many of the notions I have now this might change once my little one is born.

So, about Unconditional Parenting: I really like the concept of honoring and respecting your children as individuals, as human beings first, instead of "just my kids" you know? My concern mostly lies in some of the things Ive read in the UP Support thread about requiring "obedience" from our children, and how that's an outdated concept, etc. I'm Catholic and I believe (as my Church has taught for many, many years now) that learning obedience to authority figures is a way that children learn obedience to God. So I guess my question is...First of all, did I characterize that tenant of UP correnctly? If so, are there any Christian moms here who agree with me or who could tell me how they reconcile this with the principles of UP?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[spruce]

Amanpea,

I see where you're coming from, and as a humanist/atheist, I still "require" obedience from my children.

This is one of those areas where many, many parents find they differ in their approach.

For me, I am NOT my kids' best friend. I am their mentor, their mother, their example, their solace in times of strife. But since I do not want to be their best friend, I do want to keep them safe...from running across roads without looking, from strangers with bad ideas,from ugly thoughts, from sickness, from too much sugar. You know?

And when many other moms hear that I expect my children to be "obedient," they think I mean they should walk behind me like ducks in a row, with head scarves straight and neck-ties tight, with no sense of self or of fun.

This is not obedience. Not to me.

HTH. And congrats on the baby!

love, penelope

[Devaya]

Originally Posted by spruce

Amanpea,

I see where you're coming from, and as a humanist/atheist, I still "require" obedience from my children.

This is one of those areas where many, many parents find they differ in their approach.

For me, I am NOT my kids' best friend. I am their mentor, their mother, their example, their solace in times of strife. But since I do not want to be their best friend, I do want to keep them safe...from running across roads without looking, from strangers with bad ideas,from ugly thoughts, from sickness, from too much sugar. You know?

And when many other moms hear that I expect my children to be "obedient," they think I mean they should walk behind me like ducks in a row, with head scarves straight and neck-ties tight, with no sense of self or of fun.

This is not obedience. Not to me.

HTH. And congrats on the baby!

love, penelope

Thank you for pointing this out. I think 'obedience' is such a problematic concept because, like you say, people have an image of what it looks like, and in reality it differs from family to family.

I practice UP, and I think Dogreto explains it really well - thanks! I only have a minute but just wanted to say, Spruce, I think you CAN have a 'parental' relationship with your children AND be a friend to them. I don't think it's either or. Of course, I am still relatively new to this as I only have one two year old, but I think its something that Scott Noelle (who's a UP oriented writer/coach) points out. A lot of our thinking around parenting and children is black and white, either/or. UP is a lot about embracing some lateral thinking and allowing other possibilities to emerge: possibilities like being supportive to your child and empathic with their emotions, but at the same time giving guidance and setting boundaries.

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by amanpea

My concern mostly lies in some of the things Ive read in the UP Support thread about requiring "obedience" from our children, and how that's an outdated concept, etc. I'm Catholic and I believe (as my Church has taught for many, many years now) that learning obedience to authority figures is a way that children learn obedience to God. So I guess my question is...First of all, did I characterize that tenant of UP correnctly? If so, are there any Christian moms here who agree with me or who could tell me how they reconcile this with the principles of UP?

I'm not Christian, and not very interested in teaching my kids to be obedient to authority, but I don't think requiring obedience has to be completely at odds with UP.

I think you could be a UP parent and still expect obedience. Maybe it would look something like this:

Mom: Your water spilled. Go get a rag so you can wipe it up.
Kid: I won't!
Mom: It's not okay to say, "I won't!" when I ask you to do something. God wants children to obey their parents, just as we all should obey Him.
Kid: I don't care. I won't do it!
Mom (realizing kid is tired and hungry): Why don't you come snuggle with me for a bit and have a snack, and then we'll try this again?

OR

Mom: Okay, I'm not going to fight with you about it. Maybe you're too tired and hungry to do what I ask right now. But the next time I ask you to do something, I'll expect you to obey.

OR

Mom: It's my job to teach you to obey, so I'm going to help you to obey. [Puts rag in his hand, takes him to spill, and moves his hand for him to wipe it up.] You look angry. [Hugs him.] You could probably use some extra love now. Let's go snuggle together.


Non-UP ways to handle the situation would look more like these:

Mom: Okay, I'm putting you in time-out.

Mom: Go to your room, and don't come out until you're ready to wipe up your spill.

Mom: I'm disappointed in you. Good children obey their mothers. I wish you could be a good child.

[sgmom]

*CRINGE* I hate, hate, hate the word "obey".

How about something like:

Mom: Oh no! You spilled your water! No biggie. Here's a rag so you can clean it up.
Child: No!
Mom: Excuse me? No THANK YOU, please. Howcome you don't want to clean it up?
Child: I don't want to.
Mom: Why don't you want to?

(Work from here to find out why the child doesn't want to clean up his/her own mess.)

Mom: Is it because you're tired or hungry?
Child: No reply.
Mom: Would you like to use a different cloth?
Child: A different cloth.
Mom: Okay. Here's a different cloth. (Maybe let the child pick one. Then explain nicely how we each clean up our own messes, or how we don't ask them to clean up ours.)

(etc)

I don't see this as being disobedient at all. Children are not robots and they don't follow "orders" well. But this is a case of problem solving, not defiance. Working through the problem to find the solution is much more UP than asking your kid to "okay you the next time".

[NellieKatz]

Wow. Where to start with that [Daffodil's post]. Umm. If you want a child who is obedient, I suppose that's the way to go, but I question why one would want that sort of "blanket obedience." (think ahead in life to when school is the authority, but they're teaching junk; or when corporations are the authority, but they're selling dangerous products; when the doctor is the authority, but they're beholden to corporations; when the child's soccer coach is the authority, and he happens to be a child abuser; when an adult who's a drug dealer is the authority (just because they're the adult), and they're telling the kid to take something or do something harmful....

YES I know these examples are extreme! But I am trying to raise a kid who can think for himself. I think there's a religious difference here. I won't tell him what to believe; he will decide for himself, having learned & watched what we, his parents, believe.

On the other hand, we want him to obey when life & limb are at stake (i.e. "stop! get out of the traffic!" "Don't go by the cliff!!" or whatever), and we believe that because we are not bullying with forced obedience over every LITTLE thing through authority that is borne merely of our greater power and advanced age, then when it comes time to REALLY tell him to do something that is important, they know we really mean it. We've established a track record of trust.

This kind of independent thinking is at direct odds with the religious "the husband obeys God; the woman obeys the husband; kids obey adults" sort of hierarchical model.

This is a big philosophical discussion that could get this thread to the 5-page mark pretty quickly, I think! But it's not UP. I don't think it's UP at all, even if done allegedly gently.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz

This is a big philosophical discussion that could get this thread to the 5-page mark pretty quickly, I think! But it's not UP. I don't think it's UP at all, even if done allegedly gently.

I could not agree more.

To expect your kid to OBEY you when running into traffic, is a safety issue. It has nothing to do with complying with a demand... imo anyway. And if raised with trust and respect, they're going to know regardless that you mean business and you're shouting for them to stop for concern of their safety, and not because you're trying to "control" their behavior.

Again, to obey or not to obey... I HATE THAT WORD. lol

[mamabutterfly]

OP, just quickly to mention that the scenarios you describe to me sound like "permissive parenting."

(Barbara Coloroso in Kids Are Worth It does a nice description of authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive parenting.) I strive for authoritative - that is, teaching and setting reasonable boundaries - but for me the keys I got from Kohn and Unconditional Parenting have to do with the primacy of the relationship with each of my daughters as their own people. And emphasizing mutual respect for the basis of decisions in our family, both theirs and ours.

So far I have a great respectful relationship w/my almost 8 year old, and we listen to each other's feeling, work out conflicts, make decisions together. And my toddler is doing pretty well for a toddler, lol... but I will say I feel all bets are off in the teen years. I don't know what to expect there. I hope our relationship has set us up well for that, but who knows?

[Kreeblim]

What about the following? This is pretty much how this would go here:



Mom: Oh no! You spilled your water! No biggie. Here's a rag so you can clean it up.
Child (4 y.o.): No!
Mom: Well I don't want everyone else to get their socks all wet, so I guess I'll clean it up. Doesn't seem very fair since it's your mess though.
Child: I don't want to.
Mom: Okie doke. *start cleaning up water* I think after this I'll go dig the sippy cups out of the cabinet. I don't want to keep cleaning up messes that aren't mine, so next time you ask me to get you a cup I'll get you one of those.
Child: I don't WANT to drink out of a sippy cup!
Mom: Well I don't want to clean up your spills. Do you have a better idea?
Child: I can clean up my own spills...
Mom: I think that's a great idea! Spills are no big deal if you clean them up real quick...I clean up all of MY spills. Do you want to finish this with my rag or get your own?
Child: I want my own. *runs and grabs rag and finishes wiping*



I'm not sure if what we've been doing is UP (just found out about that from here!) but it seems awfully close. I wonder about a couple things though. Part of respecting them like any other human has meant to us that WE are also respected like another human being...so giving him a sippy next time might be construed as a "punishment" but I just see it as the natural consequence of having to clean up someone elses mess. If my neighbor broke my lawnmower when he borrowed it, I would just fix it and then not lend it out again. On the otherhand, if he fixed it up I would have no problem lending it out in the future...not lending it out was not a coersive punishment as much as me just not wanting to have to fix it again in the future.

Also it seems like there is a concept of "lack of praise" that I'm not sure I understand completely. I totally get that it's bad to make the kids think your love depends on how they behave, but is it bad to tell them how an action affected others? I tell them how awesome it is that they worked together to BOTH be happy when they work out a toy sharing plan (they are 5 and 4) and I told them the other day that breaking all the crayons made me a little sad because now they are too small for the baby to use. They agreed that it was sad that the baby couldn't color anymore and came up with a plan (on their own) to use some piggy bank money to buy new crayons JUST for the baby. I told them that I though that was a GREAT idea because now the baby can color again and he would be sooooo happy. I would never imply that their actions are due to some deep flaw in the child, and don't withhold hugs or love, but I guess I am not sure if in UP you are also suppossed to shield the child from the natural reactions others might have to them? Knowing that something I do might cause unjust pain or suffering in another is the biggest factor in what I choose to do or not do as an adult.

Otherwise I think we have the whole "questioning" thing down. I have always hated "because I said so" and explaining everything to the kids has really helped me be aware of when something is really important. Listening to their explanations has also helped us come up with ways to work things out much more productively than just coming up with a one-sided solution. I'm going to go look for more UP info now...