Talk to me about Unconditional Parenting - Page 3

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by spruce

So, sgmom, how do you get that kid not to "sleep in" if you don't engage in consequences or punishment? If she stays out past her time limit, how do you MAKE a teenager get out of bed?

I don't hit my kids. I can't "make" my teen get out of bed unless she wants to. I've resorted to cold water on the face once...and that was a mistake. (It did work, but it made her madder than I was...so that was a mistake on my part).

I use playful parenting techniques a LOT. I once climbed into bed with a VERY stubborn 11 year old, and proceeded to steal the covers (pretending she wasn't there - what is this LUMP, and why are the covers "stuck" under it?). And when that didn't work (she got mad), I decided to try a "the more mad you get at me, the more I'm going to love you" approach. By the end of it all, I was practically on top of her, going on and on about how COZY she was and how I should use her as a pillow more often. She went from mad to laughing saying "FINE! I'll get up, just GET OFF OF ME!". But of course by that time I was too comfortable to get up, so I just lay on top of her while she struggled and laughed, trying to push me off (tickling me finally worked).

The next time she tried not getting out of bed, I went into her room and without saying a word, I got jammies out of her dresser and put them on (they were WAY too small and I looked like an absolute fool). Needless to say, by the time I was done struggling to pull her pajama pants up (and before I had a chance to crawl back into her bed), she was up (laughing the whole time). I have to tell you, I was pretty upset about not getting the change to climb back in!

I would NEVER, EVER throw water on a sleeping teens face. If my mother ever did that to me, I'd be plotting my revenge for weeks.

Originally Posted by spruce

I don't feel I was being rude in asking the previous poster about their experience with THEIR OWN teens, when they have none. Helping other peoples' kids is always easier than raising your own. Making judgments and rules for OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS is always easier than implementing those rules in your own house.

The way you asked sure didn't sound very nice to me. In fact, it came across as rather condescending. And what I meant was if you talk down to your kids (and I'm not saying that you do), the way you talked down to dogretro, it's no wonder you're having a problem understanding UP.

[dogretro]

Spruce, many of us commenting here have said that UP does NOT mean that there aren't standards, rules, & expectations. UP has to do w/ how we communicate those standards and uphold them. While I am not the parent of a teen, I do have a degree in child development and have worked w/ teens in a supported independent living program. I am not interested in how to "make" my teen do anything, if that is even possible. The books will tell you that adolescence is the time for helping a child navigate their way to adulthood, NOT the time to give more rules & become more strict. Becoming more strict usually backfires w/ a teen who rebels or grows to resent you (or both). I do not think that parenting has to be only "crime & punishment" OR "let them do as they please". There are plenty of variations in the middle & UP fits there v well.

If you are interested in learning more about how to apply UP to the life of a teen, I highly recommend visiting the unschooling section of this forum (listed under "Learning at Home"). There are many parents there who have raised their children to and through adolescence using UP. They can give you many good examples of how they conduct their parenting relationships w/ their kids. I doubt any of them would say that they just let their kids run around and do whatever they want all the time.

[spruce]

dogreto, I regularly visit the unschooling and homeschooling sections of MDC. I appreciate that you have a degree that involves child development...but, IMHO, that does not translate to having a good understanding of what is involved in day-to-day parenting.

I'm going to back out of this discussion, but thank you for being civil.

p

[quelindo]

I'm still working my way through this thread, but I thought I'd introduce myself and also ask a question.

I discovered UP when my DS4 was a baby. I actually read the book during his naps, when he was asleep on my chest in the sling. It totally and completely resonated with me. I started to really understand the affect my own childhood had on me (I had a VERY authoritarian mom and dad who parented conditionally, and I've dealt with issues of needing people to like me, insecurity, not knowing how to make my own decisions, etc. my whole life) and how I would rather parent my own child.

So it's all good, right? I got DH to watch the DVD (because there's no way he would read an entire parenting book) and he's even commented on how annoying it is to hear other parents tell their kids "Good job!" But he does have his doubts sometimes, particularly since he has three much older kids from his first marriage who were parented more traditionally (though still much more respectfully than I was parented).

It's tough when issues come up that make DH doubt UP and put me in a position to defend it, when *I'm* having doubts myself and often feel like I'm making this up as I go along, despite Kohn's philosophy. Here's the problem we're currently dealing with:

My son has always been VERY attached and needy in that he has always needed our constant attention. He's essentially an only child and I'm home full-time, so I guess that's not too surprising. But he's always been very sweet and gentle...until he turned four.

Whoo boy. He started hitting and attacking us, to the point that I'd have to wrestle away from him and lock myself in the bathroom. I tried restraining him, holding him and comforting him, but that NEVER seemed to do anything but escalate things.

After a little while (a month or so later) he stopped hitting. He would start to say, "If you don't do such-and-such I'm going to HIT you!" but he wouldn't actually hit. Then when I would say that hitting is not the way to express frustration, etc., he would say, "I wasn't going to actually hit you, I just wanted it to sound bad." Occasionally he would start to say, "I'm going to h--" and then I could hear him correct himself.

But then he started hitting again. It sort of goes in spurts. It hasn't been as bad as when he first turned four (he's four years and almost five months) but he'll still hit us. Sometimes he runs away after hitting us and it's like he's trying to provoke a reaction. I've asked him why he hits, and he says "it's a secret." He won't talk about why he hit in a particular situation, even though it's clearly because he's upset/angry/frustrated. I've tried to give him things to say instead of hitting.

It's SO frustrating for us. What should we do?

[ThoughtFullMama]

Originally Posted by New Mama

I'm still working my way through this thread, but I thought I'd introduce myself and also ask a question.

I discovered UP when my DS4 was a baby. I actually read the book during his naps, when he was asleep on my chest in the sling. It totally and completely resonated with me. I started to really understand the affect my own childhood had on me (I had a VERY authoritarian mom and dad who parented conditionally, and I've dealt with issues of needing people to like me, insecurity, not knowing how to make my own decisions, etc. my whole life) and how I would rather parent my own child.

So it's all good, right? I got DH to watch the DVD (because there's no way he would read an entire parenting book) and he's even commented on how annoying it is to hear other parents tell their kids "Good job!" But he does have his doubts sometimes, particularly since he has three much older kids from his first marriage who were parented more traditionally (though still much more respectfully than I was parented).

It's tough when issues come up that make DH doubt UP and put me in a position to defend it, when *I'm* having doubts myself and often feel like I'm making this up as I go along, despite Kohn's philosophy. Here's the problem we're currently dealing with:

My son has always been VERY attached and needy in that he has always needed our constant attention. He's essentially an only child and I'm home full-time, so I guess that's not too surprising. But he's always been very sweet and gentle...until he turned four.

Whoo boy. He started hitting and attacking us, to the point that I'd have to wrestle away from him and lock myself in the bathroom. I tried restraining him, holding him and comforting him, but that NEVER seemed to do anything but escalate things.

After a little while (a month or so later) he stopped hitting. He would start to say, "If you don't do such-and-such I'm going to HIT you!" but he wouldn't actually hit. Then when I would say that hitting is not the way to express frustration, etc., he would say, "I wasn't going to actually hit you, I just wanted it to sound bad." Occasionally he would start to say, "I'm going to h--" and then I could hear him correct himself.

But then he started hitting again. It sort of goes in spurts. It hasn't been as bad as when he first turned four (he's four years and almost five months) but he'll still hit us. Sometimes he runs away after hitting us and it's like he's trying to provoke a reaction. I've asked him why he hits, and he says "it's a secret." He won't talk about why he hit in a particular situation, even though it's clearly because he's upset/angry/frustrated. I've tried to give him things to say instead of hitting.

It's SO frustrating for us. What should we do?

You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Good luck, and sorry you are dealing with that

[quelindo]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFullMama

You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Good luck, and sorry you are dealing with that

Oh man, my son's a special case...

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFullMama

You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

I agree. I have a few suggestions as well, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

[quelindo]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFullMama

You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Here it is. Thanks!

[ThoughtFullMama]

Originally Posted by New Mama

Here it is. Thanks!

You're welcome!

[unschoolinmom]

sorry

[coffeegirl]

Daffodil-- Thank you, I went and looked up some of Alfie Kohn's talks on youtube where he speaks about motivations and how praising a child for sharing (for example) will make the child less likely to want to share for sharing's sake in the future-- instead he'll be waiting for the "reward" of praise. I hope I'm expressing his viewpoint correctly there.

Anyhow, I spent a good hour last night just listening to his talks on youtube. As before, I find some of the points he makes convincing, or at least very thought-provoking. All in all however, I've determined that UP just isn't for us. For the reasons I explained in my first post here. I can't agree with some of the conclusions AK makes that, to me, don't seem in any way logical and can't really be validated by significant research/personal experience/etc.

HOWEVER, I will still take the good parts I've found and think on them, and hope to incorporate some of the more reasonable (IMO) elements into our parenting style. Like I was saying, we're sort of "cafeteria parents" and I don't think it's necessarily healthy (for me and my DH) to swear allegience to any one fallible, man-made parenting philosophy. So, thanks for pointing out the good and I hope it will help us. Good luck to all of you, and may God bless your efforts.

[quelindo]

Amanpea, I haven't read through this whole thread yet so I'm not sure what parts of UP you disagree with, but I just saw that you're expecting your first baby. I want to say, very incredibley respectfully, that your views may change when your child is here. I think you mentioned somewhere up thread that you work(ed) with kids, and I still think your views may change.

I was a stepmom for nine years and a nanny for ten years when I had my son. I totally thought I knew everything there was to know about kids and how my kid would be raised. Well, I can't tell you how many times I've had to eat my words about so many different things.

This is not at all to say that you will be like me. Maybe you're a whole lot more open-minded -- it sounds like you're being very thoughtful about how you'd like your child to be raised, probably more thoughtful than I was before my son arrived. I wish you lots of luck in your mama journey. It's a wild ride!

Originally Posted by amanpea

Daffodil-- Thank you, I went and looked up some of Alfie Kohn's talks on youtube where he speaks about motivations and how praising a child for sharing (for example) will make the child less likely to want to share for sharing's sake in the future-- instead he'll be waiting for the "reward" of praise. I hope I'm expressing his viewpoint correctly there.

Anyhow, I spent a good hour last night just listening to his talks on youtube. As before, I find some of the points he makes convincing, or at least very thought-provoking. All in all however, I've determined that UP just isn't for us. For the reasons I explained in my first post here. I can't agree with some of the conclusions AK makes that, to me, don't seem in any way logical and can't really be validated by significant research/personal experience/etc.

HOWEVER, I will still take the good parts I've found and think on them, and hope to incorporate some of the more reasonable (IMO) elements into our parenting style. Like I was saying, we're sort of "cafeteria parents" and I don't think it's necessarily healthy (for me and my DH) to swear allegience to any one fallible, man-made parenting philosophy. So, thanks for pointing out the good and I hope it will help us. Good luck to all of you, and may God bless your efforts.

[mamazee]

The issue of adolescents and sleep is an interesting one. I was reading about this in Nurtureshock recently, and there's a biological issue at play:

From: http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2007/1...ence-just.html

Brown University’s Dr. Mary Carskadon has demonstrated that during puberty, the circadian system – the biological clock – does a “phase shift” that keeps adolescents up later. In prepubescents and grownups, when it gets dark outside, our brains produce melatonin, which makes us sleepy. But adolescent brains don’t release melatonin for another 90 minutes. So even if they’re in bed at 10 p.m (which they aren’t), they lay awake, staring at the ceiling. It's possible that this played some evolutionary role, back when teens needed to leave the tribe and explore or hunt.

Awakened at dawn by alarm clocks, teen brains are still releasing melatonin. This pressures them to fall back asleep – either in first period at school or, more dangerously, during the drive to school. Which is one of the reasons young adults are responsible for more than half of the 100,000 “fall asleep” crashes annually.

So where UP is relevant is in assuming the best motivation rather than the worst. Rather than assuming bad behavior and a kid who stays up too late and punishing based on that assumption in an attempt to change the behaivior, understanding that there's a biological issue at play and trying to find a solution with the teen that takes that issue into account. And no, I don't know the solution, as school is set up badly for teenagers (as the article discusses). I will face that issue in a couple of years.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by New Mama

Amanpea, I haven't read through this whole thread yet so I'm not sure what parts of UP you disagree with, but I just saw that you're expecting your first baby. I want to say, very incredibley respectfully, that your views may change when your child is here. I think you mentioned somewhere up thread that you work(ed) with kids, and I still think your views may change.

You're right, a lot of my views will probably change once this little one is born. There are some things that I believe in completely, as a matter of faith and/or sound reason-- so no amount of experience will change what I believe about those things. But as a first time mom-to-be then there are other things (so many things, I'm sure) I don't know anything about yet so I'll be learning as I go with this baby.

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by amanpea

You're right, a lot of my views will probably change once this little one is born. There are some things that I believe in completely, as a matter of faith and/or sound reason-- so no amount of experience will change what I believe about those things. But as a first time mom-to-be then there are other things (so many things, I'm sure) I don't know anything about yet so I'll be learning as I go with this baby.

I worked as a nanny for 16 years before having my first child. I've always been somewhat UP with them, but it's SO easy with other people's children to just send them to their rooms and wait them out when they start to tantrum. I never did this, but there were many times when I wanted to. But with my daughter, I can't even imagine NOT tending to her needs when she gets upset about something.

People always say it's different when it's your own. In my case, I don't really find it much different at all (I parent exactly the same as I did the kids I took care of). But what IS different, is how much easier I find it to get to her level and help her understand that whatever is causing her to be angry or upset, that I'm there to help her through it. When babysitting, or caring for someone else's kids, that bond is nowhere NEAR as strong as it is with your own.

It's completely biological... But not only that, you're there 100% of the time, from birth on, and there is no other mother than you. With UP, it's about listening to their needs, and helping them through their emotions. And for me, there is really nothing in the world that's easier for me to do.

That's not to say that sometimes it doesn't have it's challenges, but for me to punish a behavior without knowing where it's coming from (and helping her through that emotion), seems COMPLETELY unnatural.

When my daughter was 7 or 8 months old, I remember having one night where she was just miserable and I had NO idea what was wrong (looking back, it was probably plain old developmental frustration). I was over tired, she just wouldn't settle (we co-sleep) I had NO idea how to help her, and I just got frustrated. So frustrated that I had to put her down (by herself) and left her alone for a few minutes while I took the dog outside for a breath of fresh air. I barely made it to the door before feeling HORRIBLE about the whole situation. We both had a good cry that night.

People say that sometimes you have to put them down and walk away (like when you feel like you're about to lose control - and I do agree with this, btw), but that night I felt like the worst mother on the planet, as she screamed her desperate pleas for me to come back.

You might surprise yourself. UP really isn't as hard as some people make it out to be. Once your baby is born and you watch him/her grow and get to know them, it should all come naturally to you. And whatever roadblocks you do run across, you take them one breath (literally) at a time.

[FamilyParenting]

unconditional parenting, unconditional love

Originally Posted by mamabutterfly

And my toddler is doing pretty well for a toddler, lol... but I will say I feel all bets are off in the teen years. I don't know what to expect there. I hope our relationship has set us up well for that, but who knows?

I'm new here (so, hello everyone!) and I've been reading this thread with great interest. I kept waiting for someone to mention the teen years. Thank you for that!

The "problem" with MOST of these methods, including UP, is those unexpected teen years. By unexpected I simply mean, from day to day, you never know what to expect. The surprises will come, regardless of what method you choose.

Personally, I'm not in favor of a "method." I'm in favor of <a href=http://hubpages.com/hub/CREATING-A-FORTUNE-500-FAMILY”> basic principles</a> such as <a href="http://hubpages.com/hub/Dearest-Mommy-or-Mommy-Dearest">unconditional love</a>, mutual respect, consistency, etc. Most of these methods all incorporate these principles in one way or another, but so many of them muddy the waters -- especially when a parent gets to the teen years.

While many of us do not like the word "obey," it is really just the result of honor, respect, and trust. When a child honor and respects her parents, she will "obey" because she trusts that what her parent is telling her to do / not to do is legitimate. She can -- but doesn't have to -- question it, having spent her life assured that the trust is earned.

When your 16 year old, newly licensed to drive, says, "I'll be home at midnight, after the party that has a keg of beer..." What will UP parents say? There are times when we need our children to simply obey. They haven't fully developed that part of their brains from which they can FULLY reason and rationalize to make certain decisions. It's science, not parenting. Their brains WILL develop, but not until they are adults. That's why we have to step in and set boundaries, enforce those boundaries, and keep them safe.

This (and the other) posts bring up SO many issues, and I'm aware as I write this that I'm leaving a lot dangling, so I apologize in advance.