5 yr old with attitude/talking back that leads to tantrum

[wendygrace]

I would like some ideas about helping my five year old who is constantly talking back and having tantrums. She is nearly six and the tantrums seem to be getting worse, as is the attitude. I'm not sure what is the best way to handle it.

An examples, we need to get out the door as we have somewhere to be at a specific time. She needs to brush her hair for her class. She is handed the brush and is asked whether she wants me to do it or herself. She cops an attitude (think hand on hip, head cocked, rolled eyes) and says "neither, I don't want to brush my hair". It is explained that she needs to brush her hair for class (a class she picked herself and loves to go to) or she can't go. She starts to scream and throw a tantrum that she wants to go and she will go but she's not having her hair brushed. At which point the hitting and yelling escalate until I have to carry her to her room. The tantrum will continue for at least an hour and she is constantly having to be carried back in her room because she won't stay in there. If she's left to throw her tantrum elsewhere, she'll escalate to hitting. She's completely unreasonable. Eventually she'll either fall asleep or she'll pout unless we cater to her (which has only happened less than a handful of times and only in urgent situations). We can distract her only momentarily (as in under a minute).

Tantrums occur at any time, day or evening, busy or not so busy although obviously they are more likely to happen when she's tired. I just want to find a way to get her to deal with things that have to happen if she wants something else and to stop with the attitude and tantrums. I'm so tired.

[theretohere]

mama. I didn't want to read and not post.
It sounds like she's really having an intense time right now. Does she maybe have food allergies? Is she sleeping well? Does she have sensory issues? Do some things make it better or worse?

[Bea]

Could she be hungry?

Low blood sugar makes the best of us little sh*ts.

The other guess is tired.

The combination of the two is not pleasant.

[geekgolightly]

You've probably already tried it, but Seth is much like this, and will even pull big tantrums with slamming the door etc, and sometimes what works is - for example brushing the hair - "You don't want to brush your hair do you? Because it hurts and it's not fun. I don't like brushing my hair either, when I have tangles. Still, we all have to brush our hair if there are tangles. If we don't the tangles get worse and then it will just hurt more."

Or just a reaffirmation that you understand she does or doesn't like something. It goes a long way with DS to feel he is heard and understood and he is reasonable for feeling/thinking this way.

I am also very consistent and firm, and now that he is almost six, I expect that he know certain rules and if he yells, even once at me, it's straight to the room to think about his behavior and we discuss it afterwards and give hugs and kisses.

If I get emotional about it, it will escalate the entire situation. What helps me stay emotionally neutral, or even loving, is knowing that Seth is testing his boundaries, he is questioning authority, and looking at the reasons behind why we do what we do, which I WANT for him to do. I want for him to be able to stand up and be heard and not take "Just because," as an answer. I love that he is going to be an independent thinker as an adult, just as he is now.... even if it is a PITA for me when we are rushing to get out of the house.

I do not tolerate emotional outbursts though. Not from him or from myself. If I misbehave and snap at him, I apologize and say that it was wrong of me to behave that way and I know better, I'm sorry, I will work on that.

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by Bea

Could she be hungry?

Low blood sugar makes the best of us little sh*ts.

The other guess is tired.

The combination of the two is not pleasant.

Absolutely these, too. Lots of reasons other than age appropriate testing. It's good to try and sort what the full picture is. When DS is tired it definitely compounds the issue. I started putting him to be at 7:30 with reading time until 8 or 8:30 (depending upon how much I can do!) and then he puts himself to sleep with books. We used to keep him up much longer and I think it had a negative impact on his emotional state.

[Tjej]

Is it possible to do the hair brushing at a different time of day?

Besides that, I'd have a nice and pleasant conversation with her at a totally different time about this problem. Say something along the lines of "what we are doing isn't working well. You like your class, and I want to bring you there, but getting ready hasn't been working. Do you have any ideas for how we can make this work better?"

Then really talk about her ideas. If she doesn't have any, feed her some. "Would having shorter hair make it easier?" Would you like to get a new brush? Do you need more time? Do you like to get ready alone?" Etc. Etc. But only that stuff if she doesn't have her own ideas. And give her time to think too.

You may find that your DD has ideas that will work well for her and you.

As far as the total tantrum thing, I'd think it could be a similar conversation. Ask her (in a totally non-confrontational time) how she thinks it should be dealt with. Have a couple of ideas - like, should I hold up a sign for you when I feel like you are getting really upset? Would you like to go to your room? When you stay with us you hurt us, and that is not something we can live with, so staying with us isn't working... Etc. Etc.


HTH

Tjej

[wendygrace]

Although we definitely see it get worse when she is tired, she will act like this even when she's not (ie. fresh up out of bed after having a good nights sleep) so I don't think that's her issues. She sleeps 11 hours a night or takes a 1 hour nap and sleeps 10. We homeschool so she does not have to get up an any specific hour so she sleeps til she wakes usually. She has no known allergies as far as I know.

Reaffirming does help sometimes but she does get sooo very emotional so quickly. I am constantly on my toes. We also do apologize when we get upset at her but she now throws it back on us. Something like, I don't have to do xyz because you're "mean" or you yelled or you fill in the blank with whatever perceived offense we have committed.

She is a very needy child. She nursed until 4 1/2 and still talks about it a lot. She still comes to our bed every night. She is "afraid" of the dark/monsters (although we believe its just to get us into her room). MOF, she often pretends she can't do something just for attention which drives my husband and I batty since we give her tons of attention all day long. She is actively involved in everything we do (cooking, cleaning, reading, playing games) and it appears the more we give her, the more she needs.

She's not a horrible child. She's thoughtful, considerate, plays with others well including her brother, smart, funny but once she's worked herself up, its crazy.


I'm just physically and emotionally exhausted with dealing with it right now.
I'd love to hear more thoughts or ideas.

[wendygrace]

Tjej,

we crossposted. Thanks for your thoughts. We do hold converstations and have discussed the hair thing. Cutting her hair is not an option for her, she wants hair like rapunzel's. *sigh* But the conversations did lead her to say she wanted to be asked whether she should brush or I. Just occasionally she decides neither is going to happen. Tomorrow, she'll probably just either let me brush it or do it herself and she'll have an attitude about something else.

I used to think she was just embarrassed about something and that's what got her worked up and she agreed but lately she doesn't seem embarrassed anymore, just defiant. She wants control of the situation and she's got a lot of control (especially for a five year old) for most things in her life. She chooses her own clothes, usually whether she brushes her hair or not (unless its a class requirement), what she eats for breakfast and lunch and occasionally dinner, what to play, what to watch, whether she wants to do and "school" that day (we unschool). But it seems like she wants more and more control. To make more and more decisions but there's only so many things she can decide on and I need her to realize that occasionally she doesn't have much of a choice in something because it effects the rest of the family (especially her brother).

[ssh]

Have you read Parents Kids and Power Struggles, Winning for a Lifetime by Mary Kurcinka or her Raising Your Spirited Child? I found them very helpful. Maybe your DD does need more attention and/or to have her personal space abit more respected (the hair brushing). There seems to be a direct relationship between how available we are to our 4 year old DD and her moods. We also don't brush her hair unless it's ok with her. We don't want her to get the idea that it's ever alright for people to do things to her against her will. respecting her personal autonomy is more important that occasional messy hair, at least for us. Also she is always welcome to co-sleep even though lately she's choosing to sleep in her own bed. It seems the more available we are the less needy she is.

[Plaid Leopard]

What type of class is this that she needs to have her hair brushed?
What would happen if she showed up at class without having brushed her hair?
Would it be possible to simply bring the hairbrush along, so that she could brush in the car. Or if she showed up with messy hair and the teacher of the class told her to please brush her hair do you think she would then do it, if she wanted to participate?
Otherwise, is it possible to brush and braid her hair earlier in the day or even the night before, so that it is just not an issue the day of...
It just seems like that is one battle that I would really try to avoid. If she doesn't brush her hair, take her to the class anyway. If she is not allowed to participate, that is a natural consequence of her behavior and maybe she will learn from it.

AS far as the talking back - I know my children have all gone through that phase and still try it from time to time. I simply tell them that I don't like to to be spoken to in that manner, and if they need something from me they need to ask in a polite and respectful way.

My ds who is now 11 did go through a period where he would have horrible screaming, headbanging, destructive tantrums when he didn't get what he wanted - and the only thing that seemed to help was staying near him, reminding him that that we were here for him, but that he didn't have the right to hurt himself or others or destroy property. Then we would just have to wait out the tantrum, and reassure him with lots of hugs afterwards - and a discussion about why xyz happened and how we can manage things better in the future.

This age is hard, and it is normal to test boundaries and get upset. It sounds like maybe she needs firmer boundaries, and consistent discipline/consequences, and also to understand that mom and dad sometimes need alone time during the day.

If she is trying to get more and more control, that may be her way of showing that she needs YOU to take more control. I believe that children should have lots of choices and freedom, but sometimes they just need to be told what to do. Otherwise it is overwhelming for them.

As far as throwing things back at you/refusing to listen - in a moment of calm you need to explain that we all make mistakes, even parents, but that doesn't mean that people don't have to respect us or listen to us afterwards. You wouldn't disprespect her because she was mean, or hit you, or made a mistake, and she needs to treat her parents the way she would like to be treated.

[mamazee]

My dd is like this if she doesn't have enough protein, particular protein for breakfast. If she has cereal for breakfast, even healthy cereal, she's a mess all day. But eggs for breakfast and she's reasonably cooperative. I make sure she has plenty of protein at lunch and snack too.

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by Plaid Leopard

This age is hard, and it is normal to test boundaries and get upset. It sounds like maybe she needs firmer boundaries, and consistent discipline/consequences, and also to understand that mom and dad sometimes need alone time during the day.

If she is trying to get more and more control, that may be her way of showing that she needs YOU to take more control. I believe that children should have lots of choices and freedom, but sometimes they just need to be told what to do. Otherwise it is overwhelming for them.

As far as throwing things back at you/refusing to listen - in a moment of calm you need to explain that we all make mistakes, even parents, but that doesn't mean that people don't have to respect us or listen to us afterwards. You wouldn't disprespect her because she was mean, or hit you, or made a mistake, and she needs to treat her parents the way she would like to be treated.

[wendygrace]

Thanks for the ideas. The class she needs to have her hair back is swimming. She has long hair and it gets in her face and the teacher wants it out of her way. She hates ponytails or braids so its the only time she has to have her hair brushed and up. Otherwise, I don't fight with her about her hair on any given day.

I will encourage the protein. She usually eats very little for breakfast. She's just not hungry until 10ish (at which point she usually eats some fruit). She loves to cook so perhaps she will help me make something more substantial and then eat it.

I will try those books. This spirited thing has been manageable until this year.

Thanks so much for the ideas. Hopefully I can help her manage these strong feelings soon before I go crazy.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by wendygrace

Tjej,

we crossposted. Thanks for your thoughts. We do hold converstations and have discussed the hair thing. Cutting her hair is not an option for her, she wants hair like rapunzel's. *sigh* But the conversations did lead her to say she wanted to be asked whether she should brush or I. Just occasionally she decides neither is going to happen. Tomorrow, she'll probably just either let me brush it or do it herself and she'll have an attitude about something else.

Try braiding it at night. My SIL recommended it as she does it for her hair, and we started it with DD at Thanksgiving. It's made a tremendous difference in morning hair struggles!

[lerlerler]

THis may help this particular issue (not solving the BIG problem)

But next time she refuses? Just let her go with her hair down. Show up to class early and let the teacher be the "heavy" and tell her it needs to be back.

My 5 year old started screaming that she wanted to wear her tap shoes to ballet.. so she did. As she clunked across the floor? Her ballet teacher said "Hey, where are your ballet shoes?" she looked at me, paused and put them on with no fuss....

Hasn't been an issue since

[Tjej]

From your responses it sounds like your DD is looking for firmer boundaries. I get that if you are doing a "consensual living" type thing that may not work for you, but it really does sound like that is what she wants. She's testing every boundary because she is trying to find them.

My DD is younger, but when she started doing this, I set up a lot more boundaries. Making her own choices is a privilege, not a right. We were fighting every day about what she was going to wear. She would decide, then change her mind, then really just be mad about everything. When I tried two options it still degenerated into crying. So I stopped. I said, this is making you upset and we are not getting a good start to our days. I will choose your clothes. And I do. It took a few days and then the fights were gone.

Same thing can apply to every area. Take away the options. Give them back when she can handle them respectfully and happily. It sounds like the options are a bit too much of a burden for her.

I also say this being a relatively indecisive person myself. It drives me batty when my DH will ask me where I want to go all the time and what I want to do. That may sound silly, and of course I like to have a say, but I am making decisions all day long about everything, and I like it when he asks me "would you like to go out for Chinese" instead of me having to come up with all the ideas. So anyway, my take is that perhaps your DD is overwhelmed by the power she has, and that she really isn't ready for it.

Tjej

ETA: Funny, my advice in this post is almost opposite my other advice. Take what works and toss out the rest, right?

[Porcelain Interior]

There are some things that lead to misery if the child is allowed to do the choosing, hair brushing is one of them.

Grooming isn't optional, you can let her decide if she wants a hair-do or not, but truly you need to brush her hair at least once a day. Otherwise she'll have to go through h*ll when you "need" to brush her hair.

Also with my girls long hair was only an option if you took care of it or allowed me to. Not wanting the hair brushed and pitching huge fits over and over led to hair cuts in our house. Nothing serious, but shoulder length.

Sometimes when kids get to call all the shots it makes them miserable.

[wendygrace]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Thanks for all the thoughts. Today she is doing well. I will continue to try a few different things. Every kid is so different and she is very much different from my son so I'm still learning what works for her especially since she seems to have had a shift in attitude in the last year or so. Perhaps 6 will be better. Its only a month away.

[mort20]

Maybe you can try to talk to her one on one. Or if it is not effective, you can apprehend her. The latter may not be right. But one good method to make the kids learn is to teach them in a way that they will never forget it. Just make sure that you can control yourself.

[jilly]

My ds1 is like this, and I agree with a lot of pp -- the more we give him control over everything, the more he challenges. He really likes structure and rules and routines that are set for him. Kids need freedom and attention, but they also need structure, and they need to respect other people's boundaries and need for space.

I would let her suffer the consequences of not brushing her hair, like pp's have -- either she gets there and she can't swim very well because her hair is getting everywhere, or if she won't care for her hair regularly, then it gets cut to a reasonable length. The consequence of not taking care of long hair is that you don't get to have long hair. Pretty simple. Think of how many other situations can be like this -- is there a simple, natural consequence that can come from her refusal? Then just let it happen.

I find that many times power struggles are ended around here by being matter of fact and then not arguing. I don't know how many times a day I say, "I'm not arguing about this." Some things are worth discussing and talking through. Some things are just the way it is and are not negotiable, especially if it is something ds wants to argue about EVERY DAY.

I've also started talking about chosing our behavior and being in control of how we react to things and our attitude. Its okay to be angry, but its not okay to choose to express that by screaming / hitting / etc. We are in control of how we express things. I ask ds to go to his room until he is back in control, and just keep sending him back until he is. Usually he eventually realizes he has to go to the bathroom, or is thirsty or hungry or needs some time alone or he comes out and chooses to behave differently. This means you are still giving choices and control, but helping your child realize that what they can control is themselves -- what they can't always control are the rules and consequences and people around them.