Another bf in church situation - Page 6

[proudmomof4]

"I must say that I would not meet with the pastor in his office. I think he sounds controlling and I would not feel comfortable putting myself into a situation like that with him. As far as meeting with him to accomplish any sort of work for the church or whatnot, I think it is clear that there is no place in your church (under his leadership) for a breastfeeding mom to accomplish anything (including a meeting with the pastor). I would take this opportunity to attend church on Sunday, socialize and enjoy your time. Leave it at that. I think some of us have the idea that just because the pastor asks us to do something or be involved with something that we should bend over backwards to do it. Right now your children are your priority and trying to please everyone is not going to happen. I consider it "maternity leave" from church obligations. I let my pastor know that I wouldn't be able to teach sunday school for a few months or be available for volunteer stuff. This isn't because they aren't supportive of breastfeeding, rather to allow myself time to focus on my baby and look inward. The time for service will come when the baby is older. I am sorry you have to deal with this." (Sweetiemommy)

Yes, I agree - this is a time for "family first". If the pastor and his staff have such a hard time accommodating a bf mother you'll be a lot better off saving your "wife and mother energy" for your work at home. See you in 2 years - maybe.

"Whilst I've been trying to keep my head above the negativity I feel was communicated about breastfeeding, I'm noticing in subtle ways it's influencing how I act, I realise I'm planning more, trying to feed at home where possible, if I'm going somewhere I'm not familiar with. I even ended up feeding in the car last week, which is not normal for me. I don't know whether I'm noticing more, or whether DH has changed too, I'm finding that if he's holding her and to me she's making obvious clues about needing to feed he's not to keen on handing her over." (annekh23)

And this is just sad IMO. Whatever this kind of "counseling" is all about - it seems to add to your problems. It just hurts to read this.

[FernG]

OP, I just read your latest update. I just wanted to give you a hug and send you support. I'm so sorry for all that you are going through. You are so strong. I'm glad that you have at last someone in real life to talk to. I hope that you are getting your needs for support met!

[Mamacitac]

Originally Posted by annekh23

Apparently men have been complaining to the pastor about women nursing and thus he felt we should use covers to avoid any risk, I felt they were just so ticked off that I'd stood up to them that they ignored me mentioning that a cover could be difficult to use and didn't remove any risk as I've seen just as much, if not more when a cover has been used.

Ugh! Go figures it was a man. Jeez I'm so sorry you were treated this way.
Men have to realize that is WHY we have boobs- to feed our babies. They're not play things for them. GRRR Don't get me wrong, there's tons of men supportive of bf'ing, so I'm not being sexist here. lol My hubby is one of those men. But it's always one man out there that causes issues with bf'ing.
Good luck from here on out, mama. Stick it to 'em!!

[annekh23]

Hello again, and thanks for the ongoing support.

The situation has now become very sticky, I didn't take the incident in the pastor's office to be an order not to breastfeed in church, I'd fight such an order, but not seeing it as an order, I've been breastfeeding in church, with the blessing of my husband.

I rang the pastor on Wednesday to tell him that we (DH, I and our counsellor) had decided that it really wasn't working and that we were hopefully going to work with someone else.

This was quickly turned around to an accusation that I'd manipulated the situation so as to avoid signing a release form for the counsellor to talk to the pastor, which really wasn't the case.

As the conversation progressed he brought up breastfeeding and how me continuing to do that in the FOYER was an indication of my unsubmissiveness, which was pretty dumb as I haven't breastfed in the FOYER since then, probably only had done once before anyway and after church there is nowhere to be but the foyer, so I wouldn't have a choice if she needed to eat.

So he's planning to bring the situation before the elders with the intention of removing me from the church, which I'm amazingly completely comfortable with (Praise God!), much as I'm tempted to cut and run, right now DH wouldn't come with me. Plus I care for this church, I love these people, pastor included (I've been praying for help in being aware of his many good points and then thanking God for them), I'm one person, if I'm the sacrifice for the future growth of the pastor then so be it.

He loves to use the word shepherd, that he is my shepherd, which is certainly biblical, but I don't feel I'm a black sheep he should yell at and want out of his flock, but a scared, frightened, quivering wreck of a sheep hiding behind a wall and needing a lot of TLC to help me get where he wants me to be, so with that analogy it concerns me for the future of the church that as soon as a sheep waivers he stamps his foot and attempts to exert his authority, which isn't how sheep work and I'm sure God used the shepherd and sheep example so many times in the bible because that's not how people work either.

[proudmomof4]

I haven't looked up TLC yet - but from what you're describing your pastor is turning into an EGR (extra grace required) person. I'm just wondering... you must be part of a flourishing church - if other pastors are worried about loss of members yours doesn't seem to be!

[RheaSilva]

Know what would be awesome? A special "breastfeeding friendly" service for families who breastfeed and people who aren't bothered by seeing women breastfeed in public. That way, everyone could be comfortable in church.

[mammal_mama]

I'm glad that at least your husband is being supportive of you continuing to breastfeed in church!

[Cetan Luta]

I think if church members are having THAT huge of a problem with breastfeeding, then it would be the churches responsibility to provide adequate nursing space, rather than discriminating against a babies right to nourishment. It does not sound like very "Christian" behavior on the part of the pastor. He is not being much of a role model to his flock.

[mammal_mama]

And, to me, adequate nursing space means space for mothers to nurse right there in the sanctuary and wherever they happen to be in the church when their babies get hungry ...

So maybe the separate space can be for those who want to get away from the nursing babies!

They could also pass out blankets to men entering the sanctuary, so they'll have something to drape over their own heads if they start having lustful thoughts about nursing mothers.

[mammal_mama]

But, actually, do you guys really think it is mostly the men who are complaining?

I understand that in this situation it's the male pastor -- but in my old church, it seemed to be mostly women who were upset! Isn't that weird?

And, actually, the man who I heard from was on the board of directors, in response to the communications they got from me and others after we'd heard that some of these women wanted to establish a nursing mothers room as a means of banishing all the mothers from church life while they were breastfeeding.

We sent the letters, and then they had to have a meeting about it. And I recall one director calling me to say he was sorry this had been made into an issue, because he felt they had more important stuff they needed to be dealing with right then.

And I was thinking, well, it wouldn't have been made into an issue if people were just willing to let us keep nursing our babies, yk?

But, anyhow, in our case it seemed like no one wanted to touch it with a 10 foot pole, once they realized what an issue it really was. As far as I know, they never created a nursing mothers room or made any more of an issue about it.

But the OP's pastor seems somewhat more authoritarian than the leadership at my old church was.

[annekh23]

I think the pastor feels he is currently providing adequate nursing space, because he thinks that requiring a cover or using the nursing room is neutral towards breastfeeding (I think it has an underlying negativity).

I disagree, I've seen too many women struggle to latch a newborn under a cover and starting to used one with an older baby isn't guaranteed to work.

The "nursing room" is an office with 3 office chairs, which don't work for me, plus it's actually more on display than in the gym (where we worship) as it has a huge window to the main foyer and people wander in and out for all sorts of reasons, not just related to feeding and changing a baby, again, not a good place for my baby to eat, she'd get distracted and probably bite me, she's at that stage right now! Additionally it's only available during service, so what am I supposed to do afterwards, particularly as my husband helps with "take down", so we're usually there 45mins.

However my disagreement that this provision is ok is seen to be my lack of submission and standing up for my own rights, yet just right now it isn't something that would work for me practically, regardless of whether
I disagree with the theory. It's not even an official policy, the only official communication I've had about breastfeeding is "Those of you who feel comfortable nursing in the service or in the foyer are still more than welcome to do so. " cut and pasted from the email sent when the nursing room was opened and presented as a solution to women using the nursery and this upsetting the other babies and toddlers with all the coming and going.

So given my explanation of my refusal is not listened to, the unofficial nonexistent policy actively prevents me from coming to church.

I haven't discussed this with the pastor, but when I had my previous baby, I dislocated my hip and many other injuries at birth. I couldn't carry my baby, making it to church was a struggle, DH would drop me off and the door, go park, come back with toddler and baby and but potentially he might be serving somewhere or attending to the toddler, so I had to meet all the needs of the baby right where I was sat, thankfully she was an angel baby, so having to take her out due to noise was rare, but requiring me to nurse elsewhere would have been disability discrimination not just anti nursing. Thankfully at that time we lived in the UK and breastfeeding in church was normal, at least in our church and others we knew of and funnily enough, I was probably one of the more modest mums, it's bizarre that these days I'm considered pornographic when I used to make my own nursing clothes and order them from the USA to increase my modesty and now that I actually live here I'm able to be more modest, I chose not use a cover, but I still prefer to cover up iyswim!

TLC stands for tender loving care.

[mammal_mama]

I found that the people wanting to make all the rules, seemed to have no real understanding about the logistics of nursing on cue.

Some of the women I encountered with these attitudes, had previously nursed their own children -- but seemed to have totally different parenting-styles. I.e. one mother said that if my baby wouldn't take a cover-up, then that meant she was one who shouldn't be nursed in public ...

This mother had breastfed, but was comfortable with the idea of babies having to cry for a few minutes while waiting to be fed, so they could learn that the world "didn't revolve around them." And she also was very much into scheduling.

Also, some of the people who have no understanding about breastfeeding, nevertheless act like you're being "exhibitionistic" or something, if you simply try to explain it to them in a way that they'll understand -- i.e. about how frequently breastfed babies nurse, needing to suck for comfort, and so on.

[annekh23]

Unfortunately it's pretty clear that listening isn't something anyone else is doing right now.

We had a really rough start to breastfeeding and people seem to be aware of that, she had a tongue tie, snipping it helped, but she still seemed to have oral coordination issues and because everything did have to be perfect to get her latched on, I did mostly only try and nurse at home and whilst out we'd go straight to finger feeding.

Even now at 8mths I still have to be pretty rigorous about how we do it, to the extent that I really try and avoid breastfeeding on the right breast other than at home because that's our trickier side.

She's keen on solids, but not good at actually swallowing any, at her last visit, our doctor even said she wasn't ready for spoon feeding, even though she still said when we start to start with cereal, so whilst some 8mth olds might not need to feed every 1.5 to 2hrs, this one needs to, particularly in the morning, she's not yet 15lb, so presumably her stomach is proportionally smaller than average.

So noone seems prepared to listen to what I have to say, or anywhere close to accepting that, as things stand, it's verging on preventing me from going to church, because I haven't yet figured out how to obey the rules within the realms of reasonable expectation from the rest of the family. I can bend to the needs of others, but I've three kids and a husband to fit into that picture, with plenty of bending and juggling going on already!

I don't claim to be the most experienced breastfeeder, nor to have the same parenting style as others, but the pastor reminds us that these are not things we should unite around, homeschool, public school, christian school are all valid choices and I'm not quite sure why the same doesn't apply to nurturing my child as the bible tells me - I'm amazed how many times it does mention nursing, in some of the prophecies, negative things are compared to ripping a child from its mother's breast.

[Funny Face]

Originally Posted by RheaSilva

Know what would be awesome? A special "breastfeeding friendly" service for families who breastfeed and people who aren't bothered by seeing women breastfeed in public. That way, everyone could be comfortable in church.

Originally Posted by Cetan Luta

I think if church members are having THAT huge of a problem with breastfeeding, then it would be the churches responsibility to provide adequate nursing space, rather than discriminating against a babies right to nourishment.

I'm sorry but I find both of these ideas to be discriminatory against breastfeeding and would only serve in continuing the skewed view that most Christian Americans have of breastfeeding.

The best thing would be for the pastor to have a correct understanding of God's design for breastfeeding, the human body and how each person is responsible for their own thoughts and actions. He should be teaching his congregation instead of accommodating their issues.

People who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding have their own issues. It is NOT a question of modesty IMO. I have NEVER seen someone stare at a breastfeeding mother, if anything they look away.

I wish I could go a week without hearing of some poor breastfeeding mother being harassed, especially among the church. It's tragic to me.


annekh23 my heart hurts reading how you've been treated. There is no love in your pastor's actions. I can't imagine supporting someone who acted that way in a position of authority and I admire your continued effort to check your heart and motives. I can't imagine how hurt and indignant I would be with such treatment.

I truly hope God softens his heart and that things work out for the best for you, whatever that may be.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by Funny Face

annekh23 my heart hurts reading how you've been treated. There is no love in your pastor's actions. I can't imagine supporting someone who acted that way in a position of authority and I admire your continued effort to check your heart and motives. I can't imagine how hurt and indignant I would be with such treatment.

I truly hope God softens his heart and that things work out for the best for you, whatever that may be.

I am very hurt! I still desire to be loving towards others, the implication seems to be that as I have knowledge that it makes others uncomfortable I should demonstrate my love towards them by not doing it.

Yet there are so many things that make me feel uncomfortable that I keep my mouth shut on because I consider them my problem, like I really don't like greeting others mid service, I usually do stuff like get my bible out of my bag ready for the sermon (which I've just realised isn't a great approach, I probably need to hand my uncomfortableness over to God and actually greet others).

I don't know who has expressed that they are uncomfortable and apparently I've not been named - perhaps I'm breastfeeding so discreetly that no one even notices! In some ways I feel like I'm being loving by demonstrating natural God intended nurturting to their teenage sons (various things give me the impression that this is driving the pastor's feelings - last week he specifically told teenage boys to not read Song of Solomon).

Another thing that makes this such a contradiction is the number of people that have commented on how good she is, she isn't a particularly easy baby, so it seems what they are really saying is I saw that she was in church and she didn't disturb me, which comes from me recognising her need to eat before she needs to cry and doing it right there, so I don't have to get up walk out and possibly have her start crying before I've done that.

[annettemarie]

After discussing this with the admins and other mods, I am going to need to close it.

OP, feel free to start a new thread in Lactivism if you would like to discuss the breastfeeding advocacy issues only (how to promote breastfeeding in church, etc).

If anyone wants to discuss the issue of breastfeeding and religion, the Bible, etc, Religious Studies would be the best place.

Spirituality would be a good place for a support-only thread.