Another bf in church situation - Page 3

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by sbrinton

First, where is your heart in all of this?

About the best answer I can give you is "I don't know", I didn't come to my current stance on breastfeeding without thought, prayer and bible reading and I'm willing to accept that the current situation my make that change, I'm not stomping my foot and saying no way am I going to change.

Second, are you submitting to your husband in this area?

An easy yes has he hasn't asked me to do or not to anything and in the past has encouraged me to breastfeed as openly as possible.

I do think the church is a little out of line. I think it would be appropriate to ask mothers to be modest (as this is clearly Biblical teaching), but inappropriate to try to make a rule that modest moms always use a cover (this would be legalism).

I agree, a cover doesn't necessarily make you modest, I think the most breast I ever saw was from a mum using a cover. Encouraging modesty would be great, as long as it was combined with a general encouragment to modest dress.

In your heart are you more concerned about your right to breastfeed publically (legally we have this right in Washington) or about causing someone else to stumble? And what does the Bible say about that?

Why I agree that breasts are for food, they are also sexy. My husband likes me boobs and that didn't stop when they became milk machines. Biblically, we have more than a few examples of men being attracted to women's bodies. Whether it is Adam saying "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh" or Soloman proclaiming his wife's breasts to be "twin fawns"...I think God created women's breasts with a dual purpose.

I want to tread lightly here, but it does sound like you are a little bitter. It also sounds like you are struggling to submit to the authority of your church leadership and your husband. I wonder if this breastfeeding concern is actually about something deeper. So as a sister in Christ and a fellow breastfeeding mom, I would gently encourage you to examine your heart.

My heart is currently finding it's place, which is why I posted here, somewhere safe to talk about the situation to mull through some issues etc. When Solomon talks about the beauty of his wife's breasts, it's in a list of many body parts and it is their beauty, not their sexuality that is mentioned, if we were to use Solomon as indication that breasts were sexy, we'd be heading for burkas.

I'm hurt that I was attacked in such a way, I went there for help with a different issue when I refused the cover, as accepting would have been me instantly changing my own beliefs that had been thought though biblically and prayerfully that really should have been the end of it for the moment, because they aren't at a place where they have fully thought through what they want and how to implement that.

I came to the conclusion that if I really believed I was causing someone to stumble that I would change something whether that be leave or cover up. But I'm currently fairly sure that the issue isn't causing someone to stumble, but people having fear that someone would stumble. The problem with that is that there are an awful lot more breasts on display in our society than those of breastfeeding women, I followed a bus the other day that showed a lot more breast than I ever show.

I also feel that we do have to examine the cause of stumbling to see if it's the cause that needs to be dealt with or the person stumbling. I suspect if I complained that I was having troubled with the number of men in flip flops in the summer because I found their feet sexy then it would be me that would be addressed not a rule requireing feet to be covered.

Furthermore, if you feel like this church is your home, I would be patient and would not decide to leave quickly. When we went through everything with our church last year, I was soooo ready to leave, but I am thankful for my husband's persistance. As a result, we've grown and we've seen the leaders in the church grow too. We're not all the way there, but I see God's hand using the painful situation to work on everyone involved. Trust that God is at work in all of this.

We're definitely being patient!

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by hippiemommaof4

sorry but I am just I just need to walk away slowly from this coversation....

I think that unless you are in a very similar place in terms of beliefs it's difficult to see how it goes beyond the baby's right to feed wherever, whenever and unconvered. I do appreciate the other poster's comments, the situation happened as it happened, we can't go back and rewind the clock, but in moving forwards, much thought, reflection and prayer is needed to ensure any action we do take is a godly one.

[sapphire_chan]

What bothers me about the pastor is that by telling your husband you were "disrespectful" instead of describing exactly what happened he committed a lie of omission for the purpose of testifying against you. It does not speak well to his ethical standards.

[Mary-Beth]

I would find another source of support (other than that pastor).

I bf in church and don't cover up with extra blankets/covers. I cannot imagine a pastor treating you like he did. He should be inspiring you to remain calm and should be better able to effectively mediate a disagreement.

Praying for you because you have so much before you now.

[Funny Face]

Originally Posted by homewithtwinsmama

I would never go there again. And I would let every local mothering list in your area know its a mother/baby unfriendly place.

I might send them a letter telling them how hurtful and un-Christ like their words and actions were.

I just couldn't stay at a church where a pastor treated people that way and would want others to know so it doesn't have to happen to them too.

That's just so sad. I'm sorry you had to go through that, and even sorrier that it caused more trouble for your marriage.

[smpayne]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

What bothers me about the pastor is that by telling your husband you were "disrespectful" instead of describing exactly what happened he committed a lie of omission for the purpose of testifying against you. It does not speak well to his ethical standards.

Yeah That!

I would also write a letter to the "membership", as I understand it, when there is a problem between the pastor and parisoners, it is brought up to the membership. There seem to be a number of different problems involved here.

That there are men that are having issue with the breast feeding is actually scary and I would let the church know that no breastfeeding women should have to fear for her saftey just because she is feeding her baby. That the church is trying to protect these preadators is revolting. Your reference to the flip flops is great.

I do believe that if the church chooses to ignore state/federal laws, they can loose thier non-profit tax status.

Based on the pastors lack of respect for you, I would seriously look at finding a new church and DEFINITELY find someone new to counel you and your husband.

[annettemarie]

I am gently going to step in here and ask that we please be respectful of differing spiritual beliefs. I know it isn't always easy to understand where others come from, but we do ask that members treat each other with respect. If you don't understand a set of beliefs, you can either respectfully ask for clarification or step away from the conversation. Thanks, and as always, PM me with any questions or concerns.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

What bothers me about the pastor is that by telling your husband you were "disrespectful" instead of describing exactly what happened he committed a lie of omission for the purpose of testifying against you. It does not speak well to his ethical standards.

It bothers me too, a lot, I don't currently feel that I could speak openly to him and added to a few things in the past I'm hurting badly and feeling a complete loss of confidence in his leadership, but also unable to talk about it to anyone. He has previously managed to accuse me of disinterest in my baby, based on him visiting me so soon after having a c-section that I don't even remember the visit and also accusing me of favouritism to the baby over my other children, though of course as a breastfed baby she is often the most pressing demand on my time, if I'm not there to feed her, she doesn't get to eat, activities with the other kids can wait an hour or two if necessary!

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by Mary-Beth

I would find another source of support (other than that pastor).

I do have support, thankfully, but it's not always there just when you needed, I knew my dad would rant and the prudishness of anyone complaining about breastfeeding, but with an 8hr time difference I couldn't just pick up the phone.

I bf in church and don't cover up with extra blankets/covers. I cannot imagine a pastor treating you like he did. He should be inspiring you to remain calm and should be better able to effectively mediate a disagreement.

Which is why I went to him for help in the first place. DH and I could use a good mediator right now, but DH won't work with anyone who isn't a Christian.

Praying for you because you have so much before you now.

I really appreciate that, thank you.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by Funny Face

I might send them a letter telling them how hurtful and un-Christ like their words and actions were.

I've resisted writing anything so far, at first so I didn't write anything in anger, and then because I hoped he realised his actions were hurtful and that I could show grace to him by not bringing it up again.

I just couldn't stay at a church where a pastor treated people that way and would want others to know so it doesn't have to happen to them too.

We can't expect pastors to be perfect and I wouldn't want to go around exposing that, which does leave the problem that if no one speaks it could be an area of habitual sin that is hurting a lot of people. Alternatively he could still believe that he was correct and was exerting his spiritual authority, though even if ultimately me covering up was the right thing to do, the way that authority was exerted was still wrong.

This has just opened up such a huge can of worms, as I said, not covering up was not just some random stance that I came to, there was thought and prayer behind it. I'm a lactivist because of my faith, not in spite of it.

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by smpayne

Based on the pastors lack of respect for you, I would seriously look at finding a new church and DEFINITELY find someone new to counel you and your husband.

We are seeing another counsellor, he's male, I routinely breastfeed in those sessions, meaning when we saw him the next day I was extremely anxious about feeding the baby.

I had nightmares last night about feeding the baby in church, which makes their stance that if they were to request the use of covers in church that it would have no impact on anything somewhat laughable.

The layout of the chairs has been changed recently, so when it came time to feed her today I was checking anxiously around to see if anyone was looking.

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by annekh23

I think that unless you are in a very similar place in terms of beliefs it's difficult to see how it goes beyond the baby's right to feed wherever, whenever and unconvered. I do appreciate the other poster's comments, the situation happened as it happened, we can't go back and rewind the clock, but in moving forwards, much thought, reflection and prayer is needed to ensure any action we do take is a godly one.

I want to preface this by saying I follow a pagan/earth-based spiritual tradition ...

I understand your desire to make sure that any actions you take are godly with regard to the pastor (writing a letter or not, bringing it up again or not, etc), the congregation (speaking of this to others, eliciting opinions, etc), or your husband (discussing and planning your options). Your last sentence above may not have have been directed toward the actual act of breastfeeding your baby, or not, in church. But if it was, how would either choice - to breastfeed in church or to not breastfeed/use a cover/go somewhere else - be godly or ungodly?

I do not intend to be disrepectful of your religious beliefs. I just don't understand how a choice to nurse your baby or not in church could possibly be construed as godly or sinful. And I am afraid of the very slippery slope that such a label could have on the hard-won liberties in this country regarding breastfeeding, and the impact such a label would invariably have on the health and well-being of mothers and children. That is, if breastfeeding itself is sinful in a certain situation, then the act of breastfeeding could easily be construed to be sinful in other situations. As a person of a "minority" spirituality in this country, I am very wary of the tremendous power that the dominant religious group has on our social standards. And I wanted clarification as to whether you or others may see breastfeeding as sinful, and if so, why?

[annekh23]

Originally Posted by Pirogi

And I wanted clarification as to whether you or others may see breastfeeding as sinful, and if so, why?

I think it's not a matter of breastfeeding or not, but how you do it. If I'm interpreting things correctly my supposed sin here is not covering up when I was asked to do so and increased when it was explained to me why they thought I should and I continued to disagree.

So this is where we get stuck, I can list hundreds of reasons why I don't cover up, so direct from the bible and others less so, but still built out of the foundations of my beliefs, such as not covering up because of what that would teach my children.

The counter arguement seems to be based on just one verse about not causing your weaker brother to sin, that me not covering up is causing others to sin, so I should cover up.

The irony is that no one is claiming it has caused them to sin, more that they fear it would.

I asked my husband last night where he looks if a woman is nursing, to which he said he doesn't usually talk to women's breasts, so nursing or not wouldn't change where he looked!

He's doing a great job of somehow half managing to support me whilst also not doing so, he supports me in the practical sense of agreeing that I shouldn't have to cover up, but still is criticising me for my attitude towards it!

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by annekh23

I asked my husband last night where he looks if a woman is nursing, to which he said he doesn't usually talk to women's breasts, so nursing or not wouldn't change where he looked!

Great answer!

Also, why do YOU have to be Godly and do the right thing, but your pastor doesn't? (that's rhetorical, but I'd love to know his response!).

[Smokering]

The counter arguement seems to be based on just one verse about not causing your weaker brother to sin, that me not covering up is causing others to sin, so I should cover up.

I'm not sure it's a good argument for covering up in any case, because there are three parties involved. If it was just you and them affected by BFing, maybe; but it's you, them and your baby. If your baby won't eat under a cover, then your duty to the baby combined with the mandate to worship God means continuing as you're doing - breastfeeding during church.

[momo7]

Originally Posted by annekh23

Just to add to all my hurt and emotion, the pastor then told my husband, but didn't present the truth of what happened, just told him that I had a disrespectful attitude, which given that things are hard between us right now is just adding material to the fire.

I just love it when you are accused of being disrespectful because you disagree with a pastor/priest. That really, really irks me to no end. This has happened to me a couple of times.....it really bugs me. And of course it gets me in trouble with my own DH, but he knows me so he just shrugs it off. I love my church, and I am not going to change where I worship. There are other women in my parish who are inclined to agree with me. We just kind off roll our eyes when the priest(s) talks about the things we do that "offend" (not using the cry room to BF is an issue in our church) people.

[sapphire_chan]

Disagreeing with the pastor is a sin? So the pastor is claiming that the order (not a request because a request can be denied) to cover up is coming from God?

Interesting theology. I wonder if he's realized all the implications of what he's doing?

[hippiemommaof4]

Originally Posted by Irishmommy

Great answer!

Also, why do YOU have to be Godly and do the right thing, but your pastor doesn't? (that's rhetorical, but I'd love to know his response!).

exactly! I just dont understand it. I am a christian too and I dont respect anyone who doesn't respect me or my rights... pastor or not. I dont think anyone deserves respect just because they come in and preach on sundays. Respect is earned through kindness and grace not through a religious title or job title. I think men like that are abusing their powers, powers I dont think they are entitled to in the first place... like talking down to a woman about nursing or any other matter. Honestly do you think Jesus would be ok with your pastors doings? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or bash what anyone believes but it just seems so wrong to me and it angers me as a christian...I cant make anyone see my point of view but maybe it will make them consider it idk....

[hippiemommaof4]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Disagreeing with the pastor is a sin? So the pastor is claiming that the order (not a request because a request can be denied) to cover up is coming from God?

Interesting theology. I wonder if he's realized all the implications of what he's doing?

exactly...

[hippiemommaof4]

Originally Posted by annekh23

The counter arguement seems to be based on just one verse about not causing your weaker brother to sin, that me not covering up is causing others to sin, so I should cover up.



He's doing a great job of somehow half managing to support me whilst also not doing so, he supports me in the practical sense of agreeing that I shouldn't have to cover up, but still is criticizing me for my attitude towardsesn't usually talk to women's breasts, so nursing or not wouldn't change where he looked!

it!

I am not trying to offend you but I am a very umm straight up person and I dont believe in blowing roses and sunshine around so here goes...

Last time I checked people are the ones who cause their own sin, sounds like some people (your pastor and everyone else) need reminders of that. If they dont like that you nurse then maybe they should cover their heads or look away simple as that.

As for your husband...How would he feel if he were in your shoes? Criticising you isnt helping and as far as I am concerned your attitude is right where it should be...because most people would be upset or angry and thats ok. I just dont like the idea of people telling others how to feel, it seems really controlling and not Godly at all.