WHat are my rights during labor if I end up with the flu?

[PiscesMama24]

Hi Mamas,

I just received the 33 week "Healthy Beginnings" newsletter from Kaiser which details what will happen if I go into labor and have the flu. Part of their protocol is isolating the baby from the mother until all symptoms subside (1-7 days) and treating both moteher and baby with antiviral medications. Here is a link...

https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.or...i=tcm:28-25524

This is terrifying to me! I would like to prepare to fight this if need be (which I hope won't even be an issue). Does anyone have any resources or facts about my rights that I can use to protect me and my baby from this new rule? We're already having to change our plans about having DD(2.5) come meet her new baby sister at he hospital since nobody under 14 is allowed due to the H1N1 hype.

We've already researched birth centers and unfortunately, it is not an option at this point. I would try a homebirth again, but since I had a very challenging first labor and birth, resulting in a c-section, I am a a bit scared to be at home.

Any advice/input/resrouces would be greatly appreciated! Thanks mamas!

[lunita1]

I'm not sure, but these concerns played into my decision to get the (thimerisol free) H1N1 vaccine.

I wonder how long they'll keep that under 14 policy in place? It seems like H1N1 cases are already diminishing...

[PiscesMama24]

I guess part of my problem is that I never believed that the H1N1 was a pandemic to begin with. And since I don't believe there is any correlation between receiving the flu shot and NOT getting the flu, I opted not to get one. If I do get the flu, the linklihood that it is in fact the H1N1 is something like 2% anyways. Not enough of a risk for me, but I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and decisions when it comes to how they choose to take care of themselves.

My problem is that Kaiser is very interventionist, and very pro-vax. They have on record a signed statement saying I refused the vax, but even if I had opted to have the vax, and I came down with the flu, they would still asume it was H1N1 and isolate me from my newborn.

How do I protect us?

[thefreckledmama]

I would sign myself and the baby out AMA as soon as I was able after the birth.

I would simply refuse to allow the baby to go to the nursery. While it might be their "policy", there are no laws stating you have to allow them to quarantine you or your child.

[PiscesMama24]

Really? Is this true? Would it be considered a quarentine? Aren't they allowed to quarentine in case of a "national health emergency?" I'm just worried that if I say this, I will be fed policy regulations, laws, etc, and won't have the info. I need to provide them with my rights. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, I just want to be on the safe side.

[khaoskat]

I would also look up the CDC recommendations. Although they do advise mom not directly nurse the child, I do believe there is nothing stating anything about treating both with anti-virals or even keeping you 100% separated (I believe they recommend that mom wear a mask covering mouth and nose).

If you do go AMA, I would discuss things with your Ped and make sure s/he is on board with an early discharge for baby, this way there can be no intervention by Child Protective Services. Have them release the baby to your husband and then you go home a few hours later AMA.

[Sweetiemommy]

That is insane. I would have the homebirth, you can do it! And no one will separate you from your baby, I guarantee it! By the way, what are the chances of you having the flu when you go into labor anyway? Sounds pretty random of a possibility. Just another way the government, medical establishment and insurance companies are eroding our personal rights. If you do choose the hospital, I would also write into your birth plan that you do NOT consent to removal of your baby in the case of any viral situation, etc. And, with separation, I assume that the father has equal rights and could take the baby home/discharge the baby. And of course, the hospital cannot keep you there against your will. Just have the baby checked out first. All of that, assuming that you have the flu...Anyway, this world is wacky, luckily we're only passing through.

[Sweetiemommy]

Also, I want to mention, that it would cost very little to meet with a lawyer and have him/her on board right away, so that if you did encounter this situation, you would already know your rights and be able to contact your lawyer immediately. Much like any other situation invovling personal rights, you have many more rights than you will be led to believe. Having a lawyer available is one of the best things you can do for yourself in this type of situation. For example: "You want to remove my baby from this room? Let me just discuss that with my lawyer." It is YOUR RIGHT and YOUR BABY.

[miriam]

Do you have the flu? Get yourself loaded with natural vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc, garlic, echinacea, etc., to ward off more illness and get healthy...

Get a midwife and have your baby at home. That is your baby that was inside your flu ridden body for nine months, longer than the time you have had the flu, and you have a right to it. Such silliness...

[alton]

I would arm yourself with as much factual information as possible. Hospital policy is usually informed by staffing concerns, and isn't always based on what is best for the patient. But once it becomes policy there seems to be an assumption that it must be the best thing for the patient.

Khaoskat mentioned that you are not encouraged to nurse if you have the flu - here in Ireland we are given the exact opposite advice, i.e. that breastfeeding is vital to pass on antibodies and immunities and should definitely be continued if you are sick (with a few exceptions, the flu is not one of them). I'm pretty certain that this advice is given on the World Health Organisation's website.

[Crunchy Frog]

I would contact a lawyer ASAP and find out exactly what your rights are in those circumstances. Maybe have him write up a formal letter for the hospital, and be available to talk with them should such a situation come up.

Your baby would have gotten your antibodies through the placental, and should continue to get them through nursing.

I would think you should be able to nurse with a face mask and careful attention to hand washing. Flu is transmitted through respiratory droplets and not through breastmilk.

[beachmommy5]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

Your baby would have gotten your antibodies through the placental, and should continue to get them through nursing.

I would think you should be able to nurse with a face mask and careful attention to hand washing. Flu is transmitted through respiratory droplets and not through breastmilk.

I'm not an expert, but this makes sense to me. Wouldn't it be healthier for a newborn to be with mom, nurse, and get the antibodies? Too many hospitals and health organizations are insane when it comes to giving birth imo.

[PiscesMama24]

I don't have the flu rigth now. And don't believe I've been exposed to the flu yet this season, which is why, on the offchance I do contract something right befoe the birth, I want to be prepared. Chances are that I'll be fine, but the first few moments/hours/days after birth is SO essential for bonding between mother and baby, I would never forgive myself if I could have done something to prevent isolation and I wasn't informed.

Here are the keys points the Kaiser newsletter states...

You will be placed in a private isolation room to minimize the risk of transmitting H1N1 to others.
Your doctor will start you on an antiviral medication, if you are not taking it already.
Friends, family, and other visitors will be asked to wear masks. Please limit the number of visitors to minimize their risk.
You will wear a surgical mask during labor and delivery.
You will be kept in a private room after the birth and your newborn will be taken to the nursery immediately.
While you are being treated for the flu, your newborn will be placed in isolation in the nursery. Your contact with your baby will be limited until:
You have taken antiviral medications for 48 hours.
Your fever has come down.
You can control coughs, sneezes, and other infectious symptoms.
While you are separated, your baby will be cared for in the nursery. Your baby will be monitored closely. If your baby develops flu-like symptoms, we will test him for H1N1 and provide appropriate treatment.

We will encourage and help you express your milk, which will be fed to your baby. The flu is not transmitted through breast milk. Breast milk protects babies by passing on antibodies that fight off infection.


....So they do encourage you to pump milk, but there is no guarantee that is what will be given to the baby, and at that htere is no emotional connection during nursing, which, along with the immunities and antibodies, is vital.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by alton

Khaoskat mentioned that you are not encouraged to nurse if you have the flu - here in Ireland we are given the exact opposite advice, i.e. that breastfeeding is vital to pass on antibodies and immunities and should definitely be continued if you are sick (with a few exceptions, the flu is not one of them). I'm pretty certain that this advice is given on the World Health Organisation's website.

They actually encourage you to pump and have a healthy person feed the baby, and not to directly feed the baby at the breast. Not that I meant to say no breastfeeding, but meant to say that they encourage you to pump and have some else feed the baby.

Also, I checked the CDC, the recommendation is if the baby is in the room another person be there as well and baby be kept 6 feet away from mother and infectious disease protocols be observed for visitors and medical staff.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by beachmommy5

I'm not an expert, but this makes sense to me. Wouldn't it be healthier for a newborn to be with mom, nurse, and get the antibodies? Too many hospitals and health organizations are insane when it comes to giving birth imo.

Not saying this is valid, but it is what the CDC (and we know that hospitals follow CDC in the US) says..

Basically that baby wont be protected until 2 weeks after birth if mother is sick at time of birth with the flu. Additionally, if she is nursing, it will take up to two weeks to build up immunities.

Again, not sure if I believe it, but it is what I got from reading what the CDC had to say and recommend regarding infected mothers at time of birth. But, then again, they also say that don't know for sure, because there is no research or data available. So, I think they are making general statements to Cover Everyone's backsides.

[Crunchy Frog]

Check out this link. This policy is contrary to the AAP reccomendations.

http://breastfeeding.suite101.com/ar...uld_breastfeed

Mothers With H1N1 Should Breastfeed
American Academy of Pediatrics Says Breastfeeding is Safer
Oct 17, 2009 Art Ayers

The death toll of the young and apparently healthy is rising from novel H1N1, a.k.a. swine flu, and the burden for pregnant and new mothers is increasing. H1N1 is not transmitted in breastmilk, but should a new mother, infected with H1N1, risk infecting her newborn by nursing? The answer from Dr. Ruth Lawrence, chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics Section on Breastfeeding Executive Committee, and Dr. John Bradley, a member of the AAP Committee on Infectious Diseases, is an unequivocal yes.

~snip~

Risks of Separation Worse than H1N1 Transmission Risk
The reason that separation between H1N1-infected mothers and their newborns is not recommended, is because early and continued breastfeeding is essential for the health of the baby and for normal development of infant/mother relationship. As the authors of the report state:

[AnnieNimIty]

I would be concerned if they were going to physically restrain you and rip your baby from your arms. I suppose that wouldn't be an issue if they just took it from the moment it was born and didn't let you see it.... which has happened to people.
Anytime someone says you "have" to do it, or it is policy, it makes me wonder to what lengths they will go to enforce it. Couldn't you sign something saying that you know what their advice is and are choosing to go against the advice.

If you have your husband there, and he is willing to, he could take your child back from whomever took the child and give it back to you.

Talk about a traumatic situation if it came up though...

[alton]

khaoskat - sorry if I misinterpreted you re nursing/expressing/breastfeeding.

One little point to bear in mind is that flu can leave you feeling totally wiped out. I had the ordinary seasonal flu once and was literally too weak to reach out for a glass of water despite being insanely thirsty. If you do end up with flu, it might be worth thinking about the kind of support you would need to help you at home with a baby.

[lunita1]

FWIW, in comparison with other hospitals I don't think Kaiser could be called particularly interventionist (with some exceptions... I think Kaiser Morse Avenue in Sacramento is one of the worse of the bunch). I'd describe them, as an institution as driven my mainstream research. A number of the Kaiser hospitals in CA have quite low c/s rates compared to other hospitals in the state, and there are five Kaiser hospitals with Baby Friendly status (out of only 85 or so in the country.)

I think that in your shoes I would start by calling around to find out if the protocols outlined in that newsletter are the same that are in place at your nearest Baby Friendly Kaiser hospital. (in CA, it's Hayward, Riverside and South Sacramento)

[Sweetiemommy]

Just want to stress that having the flu does not change your parental rights, regardless of hospital policy. If this is a serious concern of yours, you really should speak to a lawyer to be clear on your rights. There is a such thing as the Constitution in this country (for now), use it!