Dog growling at my child

[Momily]

Lyle loves to growl. His favorite thing to do is to pick up some kind of fabric toy, drop the other end in your lap and then growl at you when you try and pick it up. I assume this is "play growling".

He will also growl at significantly bigger dogs if they get in his space and ignore is cues.

That's been all the growling we've seen, other than that he's a sweet gentle lovebug of a dog.

Until recently, there have been a couple of time recently when my 10 year ol has either gone to take something away from him (e.g. Lyle was on DS's bed, where he sleeps chewing on a bone. But he was chewing very loudly right by DS's ear, so DS took the bone, and tossed it onto Lyle's bed, Lyle growled) or moved a part of his body (e.g. Lyle was lying next to DS, with his feet on top of DS's lap asleep in front of the TV, and DS wanted to move Lyle to go get something from the kitchen, when he picked up Lyle's foot to move it Lyle growled).

Is this something I should be worried about? A sign of possible aggression? A sign that he's not feeling well? He doesn't do these things to me, just to DS.

[tessa_s212]

He's resource guarding. You need to look up books on resource guarding (I believe there is a really good one by Patricia B McConnel), and start working on it now before it becomes an even bigger problem.

You also need to 'train' your child, too. Your son needs to learn to not steal things out of a dog's mouth, at least not until this problem is resolved! He needs to learn the "trade game". If he takes something away from the dog, he needs to give him something in return. This will help the dog learn to accept things being taken away, because he knows he'll get something in return.

[Dabble]

Lyle should absolutely never ever ever be up on your child's bed, or any furniture in the house for that matter. The message that he is getting is that he is dominant, and that he holds a higher position in the house than your child. Absolutely unacceptable.

In order to re-establish his position at the bottom of the totem-pole, new house rules start immediately:
1. Lyle is not allowed up on the furniture. Ever. Period. End of story.
2. Lyle is fed, given water, and taken out to go potty by your son.
3. Lyle must sit-stay and wait for a release command before eating, going out the door, or taking a treat.

You may have to step back in your training a bit to reinforce the no-furniture rule. It may be helpful to have Lyle drag his leash around the house for a week or so while you are retraining him, as you should never grab him bodily to pull/push him off the furniture, but instead use his leash to give him a firm, quick tug, while giving the command "off".

There is no question in my mind that Lyle has decided that he is higher in the pack than your son, and that is not okay. Every time he growls at him, he is saying "watch it, pup, or you're going to get it" and he needs to learn that he is not in a position to be handing out corrections to anyone.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

He's resource guarding. You need to look up books on resource guarding (I believe there is a really good one by Patricia B McConnel), and start working on it now before it becomes an even bigger problem.

You also need to 'train' your child, too. Your son needs to learn to not steal things out of a dog's mouth, at least not until this problem is resolved! He needs to learn the "trade game". If he takes something away from the dog, he needs to give him something in return. This will help the dog learn to accept things being taken away, because he knows he'll get something in return.

The thing is that for 6 months we've both taken things away from him just fine. The very first day he came home I fed a bowl of canned food (his favorite thing) and then realized I forgot to put a pill in it, and snatched it right out from under his mouth, then realized that was probably a really dumb thing to do with an unknown dog -- but he didn't even blink. Out is probably his most reliable command, other than come.

I constantly tell my son not to take things from other dogs, because I worry that he'll assume that other dogs are like Lyle and try and take a ball from a dog at the dog park or something -- but I never applied this to Lyle because there were no hints of resource aggression.

If I start trading now, or have my son start trading, will Lyle get the idea that he "deserves" something if I take something -- up until this point it has seemed like he gets that we're the humans and we can have what we want.

[Momily]

Dabble, we already do 2 and 3 on your list, or rather my son does, I'm much more likely to be lax and fee him without making him sit or whatever than he is. Lyle is technically my son's dog, and my son probably does 80% of his care, unfortunately he still loves me best, there's no question where he'd rather be (e.g. if we leave the doors open he sleeps in my bed, not my son's).

So, I keep him off the furniture and it will magically make him know his place?

[Dabble]

Originally Posted by Momily

Dabble, we already do 2 and 3 on your list, or rather my son does, I'm much more likely to be lax and fee him without making him sit or whatever than he is. Lyle is technically my son's dog, and my son probably does 80% of his care, unfortunately he still loves me best, there's no question where he'd rather be (e.g. if we leave the doors open he sleeps in my bed, not my son's).

So, I keep him off the furniture and it will magically make him know his place?

Nothing is magic in the world of dog training. But it will definitely help. You've already stated that both of the incidents where he growled at your son involved him being up on furniture. Remove that from the equation and you will greatly reduce the chances of him repeating the behavior.

Has your son taken Lyle through an obedience course yet?

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Dabble

Has your son taken Lyle through an obedience course yet?

He has, we are hoping to do agility with Lyle, with my son as the handler, but needed to wait until soccer ended due to a scheduling conflict -- hopefully in January. Do you think that would help?

Also, Lyle LOVES tug games. His favorite thing in the world is to chase a ball, catch it in the air and then have you wrestle it out of his teeth, with him growling (but if you stop he immediately drops the ball at your feet, so I don't think this is resource guarding). Should I stop the game? When he first came home he would consistently drop the ball at our feet, but now seems to think that having it pulled away is more fun.

Should I be correcting all growling from him? Like if he brings us a tug toy and then growls to start a game?

[Oubliette8]

I think that it might be safest to find a trainer you trust and have them come to your home and observe the behavior. Some dogs do growl to play. However, other things you mentioned are worrying- like growling when your son takes something away from him. I don't think anyone can get a good feel for whats going on from a description on the internet. Even the best intentioned advice can be dangerous if its not addressing the correct problem with the correct type of dog. In this case, several things could be going on, and I think its safest and best addressed by a trainer who can see the dog in person and observe the circumstances and any accompanying body language. Hopefully its nothing. If its not nothing, it sounds like you're catching it in the early stages, which will make it easier to fix.

for what its worth, I have consulted a trainer over growling before. My old dog never growled, and we got a new dog who did. I thought it was dominance thing between him and my older dog. It turned out, growling was just how the new dog played. But I was really glad that I got it checked out. If I hadn't, i might have tried various solutions or punishments all for a normal behavior. On the other hand, if it WAS something, it would be important to get the correct fix applied. This same dog also later growled at the vet- in this case it was fear based, and the fix (lots of visits to the vet just to get treats) was much different than the fix if it had been a different form of aggression- and treating his growling in a manner needed for a different form would probably have only made him worse.

I'd have a trainer out just to observe and see whats is going on. I think it would probably be the best course for all involved.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by Momily

If I start trading now, or have my son start trading, will Lyle get the idea that he "deserves" something if I take something -- up until this point it has seemed like he gets that we're the humans and we can have what we want.

I don't think so, as long as you do it correctly. Take the item away first, and then give him a treat/reward. If you're showing him the reward while he still has the item (i.e. in hopes of getting him to drop it) that's bribing and it can start a bad cycle. You also don't have to reward each time - only when you have a treat handy, or when it's a particularly high value item, etc. You can just be like a lottery machine.

Originally Posted by Momily

Also, Lyle LOVES tug games. His favorite thing in the world is to chase a ball, catch it in the air and then have you wrestle it out of his teeth, with him growling (but if you stop he immediately drops the ball at your feet, so I don't think this is resource guarding). Should I stop the game? When he first came home he would consistently drop the ball at our feet, but now seems to think that having it pulled away is more fun.

One of my dogs does a similar thing - she loves to tug and does a play-growl the whole time. But while we're tugging if I say "out" she will drop it. I'd try that and if he doesn't let go I'd work on that (i.e. you say "out" and he drops it while you're holding it, not you let it go first).

Also, be careful with correcting for growls. It's a warning mechanism and in some dogs you can train them out of it, causing them to go straight to the bite. I think the training you described will definitely help (any training helps really IMO). Also, I'd have your son do little command "drills" throughout the day if he doesn't already. Just have Lyle do a bunch of the commands that he knows.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I don't think so, as long as you do it correctly. Take the item away first, and then give him a treat/reward. If you're showing him the reward while he still has the item (i.e. in hopes of getting him to drop it) that's bribing and it can start a bad cycle. You also don't have to reward each time - only when you have a treat handy, or when it's a particularly high value item, etc. You can just be like a lottery machine.


One of my dogs does a similar thing - she loves to tug and does a play-growl the whole time. But while we're tugging if I say "out" she will drop it. I'd try that and if he doesn't let go I'd work on that (i.e. you say "out" and he drops it while you're holding it, not you let it go first).

Also, be careful with correcting for growls. It's a warning mechanism and in some dogs you can train them out of it, causing them to go straight to the bite. I think the training you described will definitely help (any training helps really IMO). Also, I'd have your son do little command "drills" throughout the day if he doesn't already. Just have Lyle do a bunch of the commands that he knows.

Lyle doesn't actually know any English, or other spoken language. He knows a lot of non-verbal cues but I think he must have the dog equivalent of auditory processing disorder because he doesn't respond to spoken language at all, ever. I've also wondered about hearing loss, not total because he definitely responds to some sounds like the clicker, but enough that he can't distinguish speech sounds.

He'll give me the ball if I just stand still and hold it -- not playing, but with my son he'll be more persistent, shaking his head back and forth to try and get my son to start playing again. If I drop my hands he'll drop it on my foot, but with my son he's more likely to kind of push his nose into him to get him to play some more.

We'll try the trading thing.

[mamallama]

I second the recommendation for the resource guarding book. Here's a handy link for the Jean Donaldson book: Mine!

I know some people don't like Ms. Donaldson (this seems to be based on her writing style in Culture Clash,) so say what you will about her, but this book saved my sanity.

I also agree about not training the growl away--growling is the first sign. You don't want him to skip it and move straight to the teeth smack.

As a starting point, I would revoke furniture privileges asap. I have had dogs who can handle furniture privileges, and dogs who can't. It sounds like Lyle isn't grasping where his privilege ends.

My dog who doesn't understand where her privilege ends got kicked off the couch over a year ago. Only recently she has been allowed on furniture by invitation only (I like to cuddle with her while I read.) At night I put stuff (my toddler's ride on toys, the footstool, the laundry basket...) on the couch so that she doesn't get too entrenched and come to think of it as "hers." In the meantime, she has a nice dog bed.

Do you use hand signals with commands? I was amazed at how quickly my adult rescue picked up hand signals--much better than her grasp of verbal commands!

[Momily]

Thanks for so many suggestions! Yes, he does get hand signals, although he also tends to notice the tiny changes my body makes on the way to making the hand signal and "obey" those. E.g. we started working on down by luring him into it with a close fist an a treat in the middle, almost immediately he started downing if I closed my fist.

People seem sure this is a resource guarding issue, but I wanted to point out that it's happened twice, and once there was no "resource" unless you consider my son's leg a resource. Does that make a difference in people hypotheses?

[Ola_]

I would consider the couch a resource. Some dogs are also protective of their personal space (which can become more pronounced if the dog is hurt in some way, i.e. ear infection or sore joints).

[Momily]

Ola, he definitely wasn't guarding the couch -- he might have been guarding his spot on my son's bed in the first incident (anticipating that my son was going to move him), but on the couch the thing that set if off was that his foot was on my son and my son moved it off. My son had been sitting on the couch maybe an hour -- a few minutes after my son was there, the dog came and fell asleep with just his front feet on DS. He does this -- it's like a baby that falls asleep with one hand on mama's breast to make sure it doesn't go away. So, it was either him objecting to his foot being touched (he's never objected to any touch before, except getting his nails ground but not cut, or shots, and even then he doesn't growl), or he was anticipating my son leaving an objecting to that -- maybe that's considered guarding my son?

I also want to point out, in case it makes a difference, that my OP reads like these are 2 examples, they are actually the only 2 incidents that have happened.

[greenmagick]

I do not agree that a dog should not be up on furniture. Resource guarding isnt really a straight dominance issue. You can train the dog to get off at a cue and keep it positive. If it helps in the short term to keep him off while rules are being set and he is learning he doesnt need to guard, thats fine. But its defnitely not a a dog whose allowed on the furniture assumes hes dominant thing.

Trading stuff for leave it is good. Its telling the dog that its ok to give something to you...you are not going to steal it. Make it so that he wants to give it to you and feels safe doing so. I alway start by giving a low value item and trading for a higher value treat. Then I give the original item back. Eventually you work up to a high value item and obviously if its a real situaition you dont give it back.

[youngwife]

I think that the resource guarding is secondary to the true underlying issue here. He wasn't resource guarding on the couch incident...he was stating HIS dominance...as in "hey, I didn't give you permission to touch me!".

LYLE DOES NOT KNOW THAT YOUR SON IS ABOVE HIM AND NOT EQUAL OR BELOW HIM!!

He growled because he objected to being touched or disturbed. The problem is that he is not suppose to be allowed to object to your son touching him. As soon as Lyle growled at your son, he should have given him a verbal correction and commanded him to get down immediately!!! (ie. "Ah! Down, Lyle!")

The other's suggestions are good ones....but establishing dominance is key. Your son needs to establish himself as dominant, or Lyle will continue to challenge him.

Just my .02 cents worth!

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

I do not agree that a dog should not be up on furniture. Resource guarding isnt really a straight dominance issue. You can train the dog to get off at a cue and keep it positive. If it helps in the short term to keep him off while rules are being set and he is learning he doesnt need to guard, thats fine. But its defnitely not a a dog whose allowed on the furniture assumes hes dominant thing.

With the vast majority of dogs, yes. It's generally not an issue of whether a dog is or isn't allowed on couches and furniture... it's an issue of whether they vacate the spot when commanded to do so. Wolf pack leaders aren't completely draconian in their rule... they'll let other wolves sleep in the "good spots" if they don't really want it. But you bet the other animals move when told to do so.

We let our dog on the couch, but will occasionally kick him out of his seat and sit there even when there are other seats available. He complies happily and readily and it's NOT a dominance issue at all. Some dogs with very... um... strong personalities must be kept on the floor at all times, but for most animals, as long as they quickly vacate the spot when told to do so (Loki listens when 19 month-old DS says "LOKI OFF!!!" ), it's not the being-on-the-furniture that's the issue.

As to the hoarding, I second (third! fourth!) anything by Patricia McConnell.

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe

With the vast majority of dogs, yes. It's generally not an issue of whether a dog is or isn't allowed on couches and furniture... it's an issue of whether they vacate the spot when commanded to do so. Wolf pack leaders aren't completely draconian in their rule... they'll let other wolves sleep in the "good spots" if they don't really want it. But you bet the other animals move when told to do so.

.

I agree with this. I guess it was just the original post about it seemed as if they believed that any dog allowed on furniture assumes dominance, that no dog should ever be allowed in bed or on furniture. I may have read it wrong, but I know trainers who used to teach that.

Be very careful correcting a growl. A growl is a dogs communication. If they growl they are telling us they dont like something. If it is inappropriate then the dog must be taught was is appropriate, but if you correct just the growl, often dogs will stop growling....and go straight to biting.