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People who feel they "have" to intervene - Page 3

post #41 of 160
OK- Please know that I am *gently* saying all this but, here goes...

When you place your child with other people you cannot expect that they will be *you*. They may be *like* you, they may share many values, but they won't necessarily respond like you, they will have their own conversations, they will interpret things differently and they will have different approaches. But it does not necessarily mean they are wrong or bad (even if they do not do what you would do or believe that you would do it better).

Children are resillient, and really, they can benefit from many approaches and different people in their lives. There are many ways that may not be "as good" as yours, but it doesn't mean that they are so harmful that your child can't still enjoy or appreciate their time with them.

Honestly, it really doesn't sound like she was "waiting to get you out of the way" or disrespectful or anything. It sounds like to *her*, it was an unusual request she might not have agreed with entirely or truly understood your daughters perspective on. And it sounds like she may have had a conversation with your daughter about it that you did not hear word-for-word, that may have contained a misunderstanding but was not cruel or demeaning. Does this make her unfit to be a sunday school teacher? Not in my oppinion .

In think sometimes in the name of "doing it all right", we prevent our children from having authentic relationships with other people who have the potential to be positively influential in their life. Kids are resillient and perceptive enough to be able to manage a variety of styles- some better than others- as long as they are not cruel or demeaning.

And while she doesn't need to "stand up" to the teacher, she can say "My name is Baby" with your encouragment and support (as in, next time, you plan that you both approach the teacher and your daughter says "Please call me Baby". You stand behind, smile, and nod and mouth silently "Thank you!" That really should be enough and is not confrontational. Then you say "Bye, Baby! See you later!").

At some point, we come to a choice. Do we allow our child to take the "risks" with other trusted and caring adults that might not do things quite our way and *maybe* suffer some minor consequences but also have the potential to have another loving and caring adult and another perspective in their lives?
post #42 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissLotus View Post
It would annoy me that the teacher took it into her own hands to deal with, before talking to you first. But if I must be honest, I'd feel funny calling someone else's kid "Baby". It sounds like an endearment, that should come from those closest to her.

If that's really her nickname and will be for the foreseeable future and you are truly into calling her that and you don't feel it's just a phase, then introduce her initially as "Baby". But otherwise, what if she changes her mind every week... it would be hard for people that don't know her well to keep up with her latest nickname. I don't see anything wrong with people she doesn't know that well using her given name (unless she totally hates her name), and family/close friends using the endearments.
This.
post #43 of 160
Thread Starter 
So, you guys have all been giving me lots of good food for thought. Right now I'm thinking that I'll just keep staying with dd, until such time as she and I both feel comfortable with her going on her own.

If it does so happen that this teacher or any chapel teachers suddenly spring it on me that they've suddenly decided that calling dd what she wants to be called violates their personal boundaries or their relationships with their children --

Then maybe dd and I will need to do something else during the times when that person is in charge. Or else maybe because I am there they can just address me and let me address dd.

I just have a feeling that it aint gonna be an issue forever. One day she'll decide she's not Baby anymore just as she decided she was done with diapers and that was it.

Thank you and of course additional advice is still welcome!
post #44 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I think the teacher could probably handle calling her Baby for an hour.

However, I also think your daughter could probably handle being called by her given name for an hour as well. In a way I think you're not giving her the space to handle it.

For me I think I'd've just said to my daughter "Yeah, not everyone is willing to use nicknames" and leave it at that.
post #45 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcgirl View Post
I don't expect other adults to fill my *mom* shoes, kwim? Not everyone has to do as I do, and my kids will learn that people have different boundaries. I don't see a problem with that.
I completely agree with this. Different adults do things differently. I've been in alot of teaching roles and I would go crazy trying to do the same things as the kids' parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
No, this is actually how she wants to be addressed all of the time, not just with me.

I think she's too young for me to expect her to negotiate-it-out herself with adults.
You might be doing your DD a disservice by underestimating her. I am constantly amazed at how much my 3yo can negotiate by herself. And it's really awesome to watch her confidence grow as she finds successful solutions to problems. And it's equally awesome to watch her character grow as she learns to deal with the fact that other adults have different rules and she's not always going to get what she wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
It's kind of like how, when she used to prefer wearing diapers (which she suddenly quit doing just before turning 4 1/2 a few months ago), sometimes a child would ask me why dd wore a diaper "like a baby." I'd just say that she knows how to use the potty but prefers going in her diaper right now ... and they'd say Oh and just go on with their playing.
Wow! You have far more patience than I do. Once my DD could pee in the potty at 18 months, we went diaper free. I can't imagine giving a 4.5yo a choice about where they pee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
No, the teacher said dd was SAYING "I am a baby," and the teacher said this was what concerned her. She said it wouldn't have bothered her to "call" dd a baby, so long as dd understood that she wasn't "really" a baby -- but since dd said, "I am a baby," she felt like she had to make her understand that she wasn't.
I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.
post #46 of 160
Thread Starter 
lach and alexsam -- I actually have several years of experience as an early childhood teacher and also as a children's church teacher, back before having my own family.

So, alexsam, I actually do understand about not expecting others to be me. I want people to be themselves -- I just don't leave my children in someone else's care without both my child and me being comfortable with it.

I had previously felt comfortable with the teacher, even though I could already see that she wasn't me and that she saw some things differently. Because when I was there, she seemed fine with calling dd what dd wanted to be called.

Apart from the first or second Sunday when she asked me about dd's legal names and any other nicknames, she never brought it up with me again. She just called her Baby.

During that discussion I had explained that dd got very upset if anyone tried to call her those other names, and said that I could tell that with dd it was best to just let her decide when she was ready to move on from being called Baby. And she dropped it. With me.

So it just kind of shocked me when the very first time I leave her alone with dd, she takes it up with her.

And I never ever said that I thought the woman was unfit to be a Sunday School teacher -- I just don't currently feel comfortable with leaving dd -- and though dd felt comfortable when I did it that one Sunday, it seemed to kind of break her trust in the woman when I left and suddenly she was insisting on calling her by the old nickname.

lach, I do understand all about how hard it can be to maintain order with a group of children, especially if one child is a lot less mature and needs more help and attention. That's why, since I know how rambunctious my dd can get, I always stayed with her because I knew it would be hard for one teacher by herself.

And I only left that one Sunday because this other woman essentially offered to take my place, and be an extra person, so I didn't feel staff would be overwhelmed. Plus they knew right where to find me if they needed me, and I've made it pretty obvious that I totally don't see it as a "bother" to come care for my child.

I would've LOVED more help like this when I was a children's church teacher (well, maybe not on the Sundays when I wasn't properly-prepared, LOL).
post #47 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.
Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm pretending to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???

This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd pretends to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am pretending ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...

With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her alone about it.
post #48 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm pretending to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???
Yes. We do correct her. She rarely does it anymore. We value the truth in our house. We don't lie and we don't say things that aren't true. The most "truth bending" we do is to make sure things are age appropriate. Like we didn't tell DD that we euthanized our old cat when she was 2.5. We just told her that he died.

Quote:
This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd pretends to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am pretending ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...
How is that any different from what the SS teacher did to your DD?

Quote:
With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her alone about it.
I don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.
post #49 of 160
I've been thinking about this thread. My kids are comfortable being left with people they know and trust. It sounds like you and your 4 year old were comfortable giving this person a trial run, which she promptly failed by arguing with your dd about whether she was a baby. Now your 4 year old does not trust her enough to comfortably stay with her. So, you're back to square one.

Oh well. Nice try all around.

I know I'm always a bit bummed out when one of my kids has gotten the notion to stay with someone and it doesn't work out.

But my instincts tell me to trust them to know when it's a good idea for me to be there and when it's fine and dandy for me to go on my merry way.

And big congrats to your dd for the "so long to diapers" step!
post #50 of 160
I think you (the OP) are making WAY too big of a deal about this. Loosen the leash and let your kid handle her own.

If it was my kid, I would tell her "Friends and family can call you by your nickname. Strangers, school officials, day care workers, etc do not need to remember your special name-of-the-day."

What if your kid decides to change her name daily? Are you going to get all bent out of shape of well-meaning SS teacher mistakenly calls her "baby" when she was supposed to, in fact call her "kitty cat princess" for that day?

Really?
post #51 of 160
You know your kid best. I have a child who decided that he was a cat much of the time, for the better part of a year. He has always been quirky, and people who didn't know him well didn't know how to deal with that. He was quite often simply much better off with me than with them and their "correcting" ways. I saw that, while he was resilient, that resilience would wear down after repeat exposure to people who wanted to change the essence of who he was in order to force him to be who they wanted him to be. I wanted to give him more tools and more time before he was forced into such a position. So I was very careful about who I left him with, and worked extra hard to make sure he would be respected for himself, not expected to fit into their box. It didn't last forever. He's 7 now (still quirky), and I can trust that he has the tools to protect himself and stand up for himself that he didn't have when he was younger. Trust yourself. Your daughter sounds like a very special girl.
post #52 of 160
Thread Starter 

U

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
How is that any different from what the SS teacher did to your DD?
The teacher had been calling dd Baby, and had never expressed to me that she was unwilling to do it. Then I left and suddenly she wasn't okay with it -- or as she put it, she was okay so long as she knew that dd knew that she wasn't really a baby, or something to that effect.

Whereas if a mother left her child with me, and told me that she wanted me to correct her child if her child ever said, for example, "I am a dog" and make sure her child said, "I am pretending to be a dog" -- I wouldn't pretend to agree to her request, and then just do whatever the heck I wanted behind her back --

I would tell her that I just can't do that. But would welcome her to stay and correct her child herself all she wanted to.

So, all in all, I don't want to disrespect anybody's boundaries. Just as I'd be cool with a parent staying to police her own child's pretend play (but not any other child's) -- so I am cool with staying myself for as long as dd needs me.

And if someone has a personal boundary against calling dd what she wants to be called, I'm perfectly willing to act as the go-between. And of course I'm attentive and quick to deal with situations that come up anyway, which should minimize the times when anyone else might feel a need to address dd if they didn't want to.

Quote:
don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.
I also got a little flack from others about my choice to let each of my dd's set the pace for her own toilet training. A couple warned me that they'd be in diapers "forever." But now neither of them is in diapers. Dd1 fully trained herself a couple of months after her 2nd birthday, and dd2, as I've said, did it instantaneously just before turning 4 1/2.

4 1/2 may seem exceedingly-late to some, but it was cool with me to avoid all the struggles so many mamas have to deal with -- and with both girls it was a case of just instantly deciding "no more diapers," and they were trained.

I realize that others make different choices -- I'm just responding to what you said about it "not helping" for me to "cater" to dd. Cause it sounds so similar to what I heard from others, before each girl just instantly decided to toilet-train.

I'm just finding that, at least with my own kids, letting them stay where they're at 'til their current need is filled, is the best way in the world of helping them move on.
post #53 of 160
I am a teacher for 4 and 5 year olds, so take what I say from that perspective

I do agree that it is odd that the teacher called her "Baby" while you were there then talked to your DD about it when you left. Strange.

Your church might have a policy against having full time helpers in the room. My church does. So, while it might be appreciated to have a Mom stay the whole time- they would have to go through a background check to be able to interact in a helping role with the other children. Crazy? Some might think so, but overall it is to protect everyone's children. I am on the committee at my church that overseas this, and I get lots of complaints about it. A parent is free to stay with their child if they wish, but if they go in to helping mode with other kids, it is not allowed. So I wanted to mention that so you didn't think they didn't want you there, etc. There could just be a legal reason why you aren't encouraged to stay and help

I personally would not feel comfortable addressing one of my student's as "Baby" and I am with them 40 hours a week. If that was their given name, I would have no choice, but as a nickname, it would make me uncomfortable. It would not be allowed at all in the public schools as a nickname- I used to work there too. I see a huge teasing issue here. Maybe not now, but eventually I see the other kids giving your DD a hard time about it. So perhaps the teacher was trying to keep that at bay.

I usually hear "I'm a puppy!", "I'm a Mommy", "I'm a Princess" in my class every day, and I think it is great to play pretend. But if one of my students asked me to call them "Puppy" or "Mommy" or "Princess" all the time, I would not do so. I feel that an adult figure in a church or school setting should be able to call your DD by her given name or another mutually agreed on nickname rather than one that might make them uncomfortable. I think it is okay if children know that everyone's boundaries need to be respected.
post #54 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I've been thinking about this thread. My kids are comfortable being left with people they know and trust. It sounds like you and your 4 year old were comfortable giving this person a trial run, which she promptly failed by arguing with your dd about whether she was a baby. Now your 4 year old does not trust her enough to comfortably stay with her. So, you're back to square one.
Yes, this seems like an accurate assessment.

Quote:
Oh well. Nice try all around.

I know I'm always a bit bummed out when one of my kids has gotten the notion to stay with someone and it doesn't work out.
Yes, I was tentatively-excited at the thought that I might be able to start enjoying some church services again. But I know these years go by so fast, and having to wait a bit won't hurt me any.

Quote:
But my instincts tell me to trust them to know when it's a good idea for me to be there and when it's fine and dandy for me to go on my merry way.
Yes, that's my feeling about it -- I feel that she broke dd's and my personal trust. Which of course doesn't mean that she's not qualified to care for other people's kids. Just not mine at this time -- at least not without me there, too.

Quote:
And big congrats to your dd for the "so long to diapers" step!
Thank you! This has been such a wonderful affirmation to my instincts, 'cause there were times when I was the only one who believed in what I was doing -- well, I think my dd's have always believed in me, but I just mean those famous "others" who feel compelled to tell us mothers we're crazy.
post #55 of 160
Thread Starter 
Thank you, lotusdebi, and thank you for sharing!

MayBaby2007 -- I already answered the question about daily name-changes up-thread. No, I wouldn't expect others to keep up if dd was always wanting to change her name. That isn't what's happening in this case -- but if it were -- then, as I said upthread, I'd tell dd that I'D try my best to keep up with all her new names, but others really can't so she needs to pick one name that everyone else can just ALWAYS call her.

Bunnyflakes, I'd have absolutely no problem with having them do a background check on me. Thus far they've expressed no problem with me being there, and on one occasion another visiting mom and me were the only adults in the playroom with the little ones -- though they also had a couple of young teen or preteen girls in there helping.

I'd already been coming for a few weeks by that time, so they seemed to feel they could trust me. And the director was thankful for my help. She has a hard time staffing her children's ministry, and I actually think I'll be asked to take more responsibility in the future.

So the urge for me to go enjoy service that one day, seemed to be more of a concern that I hadn't yet got to do that, and not that they were discouraging me from being there.
post #56 of 160
You mentioned that you had told the SS teacher that your daughter would be very upset to not be called Baby, and that is why you don't call her by her given name/another name. Perhaps the SS teacher was trying to talk to your DD about this and find out if it really was that big of an issue (sometimes kids can be more finicky with a mom than with others). I agree that it doesn't sound like it came across well, but I am just saying that perhaps the teacher was just trying to see if it was truly important for your DD to be called Baby by her all the time. If that was the motive was it necessary? No. But it also would not have been a malicious/ behind your back type of thing.

I personally get the feeling of wanting to be there with my DD at Sunday School or other things like that because my DD is very reserved, and her feelings are hurt easily. I have found that for my DD, however, it really has been a great source of pride and growth for her to be in a small group with teachers we know/trust for an hour a week. I think that if you chose to encourage your daughter to be a part of the group independently, and if she then felt empowered and excited to do it, it could be a very good thing for her at this stage in life.

Having the teachers over for a meal/ getting to know them a bit outside of the Sunday morning time could be a very good way to build the relationship for your DD and help her to feel more excited about/confident with the other teacher. And you as well - after this "bump" in the road it might be nice for you to have more time and interaction with the teacher to get to know them better.

Tjej
post #57 of 160
OK- but instead of all this subversive, disrespectful, better-than-the-mom, "get her out of the way" stuff, what if the conversation with the teacher went like this:

"Why do they call you Baby?"
"Because I'm a Baby!"
"But you're not *really* a baby! (said with a smile and maybe a friendly silly nudge). Your name is Suzy! (or whatever) Don't you think Suzy is a nice name? I do! Maybe we can call you that too sometimes?"
"I guess..." (child goes off to play).

I mean, this may or may not be what happened, but is this a plausable scenario? I guess I'm saying it because there can be lots of ways things "go down" that are not what you may think first off and are not really "bad", just a misunderstanding that doesn't require hypervigilance, just a bit of attention.

However, I DO feel that child saying that she "doesn't like the teacher" at least deserves some recognition of that fact as well as some further exploration by the parents, so I'm not advocating for you to ignore it. Just maybe... take a deep breath and not be so hasty to think bad things .
post #58 of 160
Another thing I thought about- can you tell I can't sleep? - is that if she calls one child by their preferred name, she will have to do it for all of them, which could go something like this..

*using my own classroom as an example*
So Bethany wants to be called Princess. I do it because it seems like no big deal at the time. Then David wants to be called Spiderman, because it is only fair if I am calling Bethany something else. Then Anna wants to be called Lucy and Jack wants to be called Sponge Bob and by that point I have no clue who I am talking to anymore :
post #59 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefoot View Post
I don't see any problem with calling your dd Baby if that is what she wants.

I think your situations is partly about people attaching too much to a word and the modern belief that being a baby is a bad state which should be left behind swiftly at all costs in order to foster independence.

I'd call your dd Baby without any hesitation or criticism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post
You mentioned that you had told the SS teacher that your daughter would be very upset to not be called Baby, and that is why you don't call her by her given name/another name. Perhaps the SS teacher was trying to talk to your DD about this and find out if it really was that big of an issue (sometimes kids can be more finicky with a mom than with others). I agree that it doesn't sound like it came across well, but I am just saying that perhaps the teacher was just trying to see if it was truly important for your DD to be called Baby by her all the time. If that was the motive was it necessary? No. But it also would not have been a malicious/ behind your back type of thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexsam View Post
OK- but instead of all this subversive, disrespectful, better-than-the-mom, "get her out of the way" stuff, what if the conversation with the teacher went like this:

"Why do they call you Baby?"
"Because I'm a Baby!"
"But you're not *really* a baby! (said with a smile and maybe a friendly silly nudge). Your name is Suzy! (or whatever) Don't you think Suzy is a nice name? I do! Maybe we can call you that too sometimes?"
"I guess..." (child goes off to play).

I mean, this may or may not be what happened, but is this a plausable scenario? I guess I'm saying it because there can be lots of ways things "go down" that are not what you may think first off and are not really "bad", just a misunderstanding that doesn't require hypervigilance, just a bit of attention.
I really hope this was the case. If not, the problem here isn't the nickname. The problem is the woman said she was okay with it when she clearly was not. That's just dishonest. Even if she was okay with it initially and then after thinking about it and experienced calling her a nickname that made her uncomfortable, she should have revisited the conversation with you. Are people so afraid of confrontation that they can't express themselves honestly with an adult only with a non-threatening child? She was perfectly within her right to express to you that it crossed her boundaries, but she didn't do that. She didn't give you a chance to make a decision about respecting her boundaries, she made the decision for you.

But again, I really hope it was more like the posters I quoted above implied. It doesn't seem disrepectful if she was trying to gain a deeper understanding from your dd's perspective to adjust her personal comfort level.

As far as staying with your dd, what does she say about that? Personally I'd ask my dd if she wanted me to stay or if she was okay with me going to the adult service. And if she wanted me to stay, I would certainly do so.

I want to validate that you are not expecting anyone else to parent your child. I'm not sure how that came up. I didn't get that from reading your posts at all.

My job is to parent my children, not to defend how I do so.

This is for the diaper thing:
"It is the nature of the child to be dependent, and it is the nature of dependence to be outgrown. Begrudging dependency because it is not independence is like begrudging winter because it is not yet spring. Dependency blossoms into independence in its own time."

Peggy O'Mara

I hope it's okay to quote like that. I should find the rules on that, but if it's not I'm sure they'll let me know soon enough.
post #60 of 160
Has anyone seen the movie Dirty Dancing? Jennifer Grey's character was called 'Baby' and she was in her teens.
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