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People who feel they "have" to intervene - Page 4

post #61 of 160
Am I the only one who finds it suspicious that the teacher convinced Mammal_mia to leave her dd alone and as soon as she was out the way there's a problem with calling her dd 'baby'?

The "I'm worried she thinks she actually *is* a baby" thing is just backpedaling after being called out for ignoring the parent's wishes.

M_M's dd isn't crapping her pants, whining for bottles, or fake crying boo-hoo-boo-hoo-I'm-a-Baby-wah-wah. M_M didn't dump her on this woman. The woman ASKED her to leave her dd in her care. She'd seen M_M's dd before in the class, she knew what she was like. And if she couldn't handle it, she knew where M_M was and had been specifically told that it was okay to go get her.

Either M_M's dd was not being disruptive and there was no reason to make an issue of things, or she was being disruptive and M_M should have been pulled out of class to handle her.

It's so strange to me, in one thread we have people telling someone who takes care of a child for 9 hours a day that she shouldn't talk with his mom about why he's cranky because the mom might get offended and it's Her Child, and here it seems like everyone is saying that the teacher can't possibly be expected to treat the OP's child for an hour alone the way she treated the child for an hour while the OP was present.

If the teacher can't be expected to be the parent, then she also has no right to lecture the child about her choice of what to be called.

ETA: Of course, if the teacher was doing the exploring thing mentioned a couple of posts up, that's another story. Still merits having a chat with her and I think "you seem to have concerns about my dd's choice of nicknames, let's talk" would be a good way to start.
post #62 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.
Well, yes, you have a child who responds well to continual correction. M_M's child does better with just waiting until she's ready for something and then she moves on with no fuss and bother.

You two have radically different children so advice to each other isn't going to be useful. You would, however, be able to team up and give a nice broad perspective to other people who need help with parenting concerns.

What's good for the goose may be good for the gander, but kids aren't as homogeneous as geese.
post #63 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.
This reminds me of the bit in Harry Potter 1 where he's talking about having a dream about a flying motorcycle and his uncle and aunt get angry and tell him off for talking about "unreal things".

You give your dd credit for being able to stand up for herself to adults, which is something adults can have trouble with, but you don't trust her to keep fantasy and reality separate, a skill that is right at her level, without continually watching her language?
post #64 of 160
Okay, maybe I'm off base here. I thought pretend play was a normal part of child development?
post #65 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
Okay, maybe I'm off base here. I thought pretend play was a normal part of child development?
Pretend play is, but isn't that some of the question here?

As for saying "I'm pretending to be..." rather than "I am...," we don't do that at our house. We're all pretty much free spirits, so we really encourage pretend play and trust our children to know that they're not actually whatever they're pretending to be. At DS's school, however, his teacher really insists that the children say they're pretending rather than that they "are" something. I asked about it because it just seemed odd, and she said a lot of children really don't understand the difference. :sigh That's not *my* experience, but perhaps it is for other children, especially those who watch television and play video games a lot.

MM, I would have a frank conversation with the woman. Eventually, I assume, you will want to go to a service, and you and your DD need to be able to trust the people who are teaching the class. Ask her but not when she's watching other children at play practice. Have breakfast together or go out for coffee or call her up. Get a real feel for it. As a teacher, she also may have some insight that could be useful.

I suppose I'm a bit confused about the whole thing. This is what I understand. You brought your DD in and said, "this is Baby." The woman at some point asked you about her legal name, and you explained that your DD has a legal name but wants to be called Baby. Okay. SS teacher complies.

When you leave 6 weeks later, the teacher, who has been calling your DD Baby, decides to talk to your DD about it. She told you that your DD was saying she *was* a baby, and she wanted to make sure she understood it.

To me, those are 2 different issues. One is that your DD wants to be called Baby, and the teacher complied. The second is that at some point, your DD said that she *is* a baby. She's not. Coupled with wanted to be called Baby, I can see how the teacher may have responded to that with making sure your DD understood that she's not a baby.

It's not the same as pretending to be a horse, in fact, because babies and preschoolers are both people. I can see how, under these circumstances, the teacher may feel she needs to make sure your DD understands her developmental stage. And, perhaps it didn't come up when you were there. As I understand it, you very rarely, if ever, have your children out of your sight. I know that children often act differently (not better or worse, just different) when their parents aren't in the room, probably because of familiarity. My own hyper DS apparently is very calm at school. So isn't it conceivable that your DD started saying she was a baby after you left and that the teacher was responding to that comment, rather than "going behind your back" to challenge your dd's naming decision?
post #66 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
This reminds me of the bit in Harry Potter 1 where he's talking about having a dream about a flying motorcycle and his uncle and aunt get angry and tell him off for talking about "unreal things".

You give your dd credit for being able to stand up for herself to adults, which is something adults can have trouble with, but you don't trust her to keep fantasy and reality separate, a skill that is right at her level, without continually watching her language?
That's actually a skill not gained until more like 8 or 9 years old. Some kids may seem to gain it earlier, but it's not developmentally appropriate for a child to really begin to understand the difference between fantasy and reality until 8 or 9. That's around the same time when children can actually understand about lying. Isn't 8 the age of confirmation in the Catholic church for this reason.

My 3yo may seem to have a decent grasp about when she's pretending or not, but I still think it's important to set the foundation up so that it's clear.
post #67 of 160
What I don't see is how arguing with a lady who wants to call a child by their given name is helpful to the child. It seems to me that in this world we all run into people who are contrary and that this would be an excellent introduction to that for the child. Yes, it's very annoying to be called a name that you don't want to be called (YOU HEAR THAT GUY AT WORK WHO CONTINUALLY CALLS ME NANCY? MY NAME IS NOT NANCY!) but I don't see how making a big deal about it is anything other than a lesson to the child that an adult is always going to be poised to swoop in and fix things.
She wants to be called Baby and the lady wants to call her by her given name. It's annoying but I also think it's an excellent lesson for her to learn about standing up for herself (Please call me Baby, not firstname.) and that people have free wills and will do as they like. It's irritating, not harmful.
*shrugs*
post #68 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by daytripper75 View Post
What I don't see is how arguing with a lady who wants to call a child by their given name is helpful to the child.
I think people are trying to provide some perspective that it might not be reasonable to expect the teacher to call the child "Baby".

Sometimes when there is conflict between a child and outside sources it's because the outside source is being unreasonable. And then that's where the focus should be in trying to change something. Other times it's because the child is making an unreasonable request. So it would make sense to try to solve the conflict by working with the child.

I think much more progress would be made in this situation by taking a moment to teach the child that not every adult is going to be willing to cater to requests like not using the child's given name and using a very personal nickname instead.
post #69 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
I think much more progress would be made in this situation by taking a moment to teach the child that not every adult is going to be willing to cater to requests like not using the child's given name and using a very personal nickname instead.
This was my point too. Thank you for saying it with more eloquence than I could muster.
post #70 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83 View Post
That's actually a skill not gained until more like 8 or 9 years old. Some kids may seem to gain it earlier, but it's not developmentally appropriate for a child to really begin to understand the difference between fantasy and reality until 8 or 9. That's around the same time when children can actually understand about lying. Isn't 8 the age of confirmation in the Catholic church for this reason.

My 3yo may seem to have a decent grasp about when she's pretending or not, but I still think it's important to set the foundation up so that it's clear.
7 or 8 is the age for first reconciliation and communion, not confirmation. Confirmation is usually around 14.

This is the difference between Montessori (no fantasy play allowed before 7) and Waldorf (no reality play allowed before 7) to oversimplify.
post #71 of 160
I say this with complete sincerity. This discussion reminds me so profoundly of the conversations I had when my first was 4 and we were contemplating using building school.

We made the different choice to homeschool based in very large part on the kinds of comments being made about the nature of children and their need to adjust to adults.

Thank you so much for sharing your honest opinions. It's been really refreshing to remember.
post #72 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
This is the difference between Montessori (not fantasy play allowed before 7) and Waldorf (no reality play allowed before 7) to oversimplify.
I'd like to strongly disagree that Montessori does not allow fantasy play before age 7. Maria Montessori had absolutely nothing against fantasy play, and indeed in her original program she had the usual lineup of baby dolls and so forth. She noticed that these toys went unplayed with, and that children naturally gravitated towards useful work. In Montessori infant and toddler programs, fantasy play is very much encouraged: my daughter's Toddler House program has dolls, a play kitchen, and other fantasy-type toys. In Montessori preschool programs, while the three hour block for work is a given, most schools that have a longer day also include plenty of time for free, imaginative play.

And just to agree with JL83, I happen to have a book right next to me (about TV and kids which is pretty pro-TV, and that's kind of bugging me, so I'm just saying it doesn't really have a horse in this race) that cites one study that says that some kids as old as 6th grade have trouble differentiating between fantastical and real creatures. The book also cites other research backing up what JL83 says, about understanding real/make believe as a developmental step that doesn't even begin to happen until age 4. Before that, it's all the same.
post #73 of 160
I should add, that I also don't believe that children can understand what lying is before 8 or 9 either. With DD we will say things like "You wish that you'd already taken your plate to the kitchen" when we ask her if she had and she says "yes" when in fact she hasn't. We don't even call it lying in my family because we don't think that small children have that capacity. They say things they wish were true. And I think that they end up believing that it is true.
post #74 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I say this with complete sincerity. This discussion reminds me so profoundly of the conversations I had when my first was 4 and we were contemplating using building school.

We made the different choice to homeschool based in very large part on the kinds of comments being made about the nature of children and their need to adjust to adults.

Thank you so much for sharing your honest opinions. It's been really refreshing to remember.
I don't think that children need to adjust to adults (certainly not all the time), but they can adjust to adults sometimes. My comments on this thread were influenced by these comments by the op:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
We've been attending a new church for about six weeks. We'd been out of church for a while, and the primary catalyst for our long non-attendance, and for the many theological changes we've been making, has been the lack-of-respect for children that we were encountering among many religious people.

But we are feeling a need for community, and don't want to keep getting offended and moving on.
.
In community, ime, there is some give and take. The people in my dc's lives aren't perfect, but we still value our relationships. I've found that, if I empathize with my kids, but encourage them to either speak up or overlook some stuff and move on (with little stuff--not big stuff), they usually can and get past it. It's a 2-way street, and the adults do their share of overlooking stuff, too! If we confronted on every small issue, or walked away, we would be missing out on a lot of great relationships.
post #75 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm pretending to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???

This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd pretends to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am pretending ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...

With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her alone about it.
I agree. I have one child with a very vivid imagination. I wouldn't dream of pulling him out of his playing to demand that he specify that he was only pretending. At that moment, he is NOT pretending...He IS. It's a sign of intelligence to be able to really get into that imaginary world and I'm happy when he's so into his play that he becomes whatever he imagines.

I haven't finished page 4, but this thread has been absolutely amazing so far. I love hearing all of the different takes on this issue. I'm more with Mammal-Mama though. Kids at 4 are in a big stage of growth and it can be overwhelming. If they want to rest comfortably in one stage for awhile and are able to verbalize that they need this time, then I have to believe that it's a good thing. Sometimes I need something that is totally illogical and when I ask for it, I expect to be respected that it might not make sense, but I need it, for whatever reason.
post #76 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by lach View Post
I'd like to strongly disagree that Montessori does not allow fantasy play before age 7.
Yup, oversimplifiying, as I said. If anyone wants more info on Montessori and early fantasy play, here's a link with lots: http://www.montessorimom.com/fantasy...lity-learning/
post #77 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
I don't think that children need to adjust to adults (certainly not all the time), but they can adjust to adults sometimes. My comments on this thread were influenced by these comments by the op:
I think the point is that an important life skill is to learn how to adjust to other people. It makes like alot easier to realize that you can't control what other people do 100% of the time. Sometimes it sucks. But that doesn't make it less true. I know a couple people who try to make the world bend to them every single time and they are miserable. Please don't get me wrong (not talking to the person I quoted), I don't think that we should adjust every time. But I think that most of the time when everyone gives a little, things go more smoothly and people end up happier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post
I agree. I have one child with a very vivid imagination. I wouldn't dream of pulling him out of his playing to demand that he specify that he was only pretending. At that moment, he is NOT pretending...He IS. It's a sign of intelligence to be able to really get into that imaginary world and I'm happy when he's so into his play that he becomes whatever he imagines.
But, at least you're admitting that he gets lost between fantasy and reality. That's really my point. We've chosen to try to acknowledge the boundary, not as a way to limit or prevent our child from pretend play, but as a way to hopefully make the distinction easier.

And my DD does do a whole lot of imaginative play, I can't really imagine her doing more. Pretty much everything she does is pretend right now. So, I don't think our approach has hurt her any.
post #78 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
If we confronted on every small issue, or walked away, we would be missing out on a lot of great relationships.
I agree. I wouldn't confront or walk away. I'd just stay with my kid until she felt comfortable again and feel bad for the adult who used the first opportunity alone with my kid to correct her on whether she was a baby rather than get to know her without me there.

As I said, my response would be good try all around and back to providing my kid an opportunity to build trust with other adults who respect them.
post #79 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post
You say she understands the difference. You claim that it's just a name and not necessarily wanting to act like a baby. Yet she chooses to wear diapers (if I'm reading the timeline right) combined with the name issue and you don't feel she is acting babyish? And can't understand why someone else would seed it that way?


So basically your child causes chaos if she doesn't get exactly her way and your solution to this is to cater to her every whim and desire. And you can't understand why someone else would be unwilling to do so?


And once again you think the solution to inappropriate behavior is to give her her way in all things and make excuses for her? And you don't understand why your mother thought your older child would benefit from some different adult interaction in addition to your own?

Your solution in all of these situation seems to be to blame the other party for your childs behaviors and rarely expect your child to learn how to work and live with others. That doesn't sound like respecting your child. You don't seem to respect them enough to expect appropriate behavior from them. Reading your posts it seems that what you mean by respecting children is giving them there own way in all things.

Mabey I'm misunderstanding but that is what I'm reading.

It also seems like you speak for your children frequently rather than allowing them to speak for themselves.

I'll admit as a teacher in that situation I would take the opportunity to speak to the child themselves and see how they felt about their nickname and how they felt about their real name. Basically I'd want to know if the child's psyc was really so fragile that mom felt it was necessary to cater to them that much, hover that much, and answer for them so frequently. And really if they even really objected to their given name as much as mom claimed.
If I can speak for MM for a moment....correct me if I'm wrong, MM. M-M lives in the South and has very different opinions of child-rearing than most of her peers. Her daughter would be unable to adequately defend herself in most of these situations because children are not to defend themselves in this area. Children are to call everyone Ma'am and Sir and to defer to all adults in a respectful and obedient manner. That's the normal expectation in that area. I was raised there, so I know. So, it's hard not to step in and protect your child when you know that your child is ill-equiped to deal with people who will most likely not be open to her seemingly unreasonable requests. Most adults in this area would find a child like that in need of a "whoopin'" The best way for MM to teach her child to deal with these people is to model. The child will see her mother demand respect for the child and the child will learn to demand respect for herself.

Even when I go there to visit, I have my guard up. I have to pay attention to the interactions between my child and other adults. Stop teasing short, stop any tickling short, any unreasonable scolding for age appropriate behavior. I can imagine living there, it would be even harder.

I don't know if MM is going overboard with it or not and only she knows that. There is a point where assertiveness becomes aggressiveness. But this example of wanting to be called a different name seems like a mother defending her child's childhood. My own mother (who lives in this area) expected me to tell my child "suck it up." for just about anything he cried about. She loves me and him, she just thinks that if you don't teach them to "suck it up." they'll be whiney and incapable.
post #80 of 160
Okay, I've been thinking about this thread.

What it basically comes down to is basically a she said/he said thing. Except there isn't really a second person, because even if you did ask your 4yo exactly what happened, kids that age are notoriously unreliable. As the tangential discussion on this thread is about, kids that age can't understand the line between fantasy and reality, and that travels over to the answer about "what did you do today?" Anyone who has actually sent their child to preschool knows that there's about a 50% chance that what the child said happened actually happened.

So basically, there's just a she said. The Sunday School teacher told you about a conversation, and you don't believe her. But the story itself is rather vague, and you don't even entirely know the teacher's entire side.

Before making snap judgments about the teacher, I would try to find out exactly what happened, and then decide whether to be as annoyed as you are. But I find it a little odd that you are so quick to accuse the Sunday School teacher of lying, when you don't really know exactly what happened, or why it happened. Several people have made up situations about why the teacher might have said what she did, keeping in mind that we don't even really know what she said. But we could solve the entire situation if you just asked her exactly how the conversation went, and why it came up in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post
You say she understands the difference...as much as mom claimed.
Just wanted to say that I agree with this entire comment (it was long, so I edited )
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