Reading in 1st: Will we be ahead or behind??

[Savoir Faire]

Hello all. We finally decided to do unschooling for now for our Kindergarten-- delaying formal schooling until first grade. (We haven't decided WHEN first grade starts-- my daughter is a July birthday so she'll turn six this summer. Not sure if we will start at six or seven...but she has a brother 18 months behind, so I might want to figure this out.)

Anyway, so we decided to really just step back and have fun for now. We play games, do crafts, play, play and play. She's had a little fun on Starfall.com with her little brother-- they really seem to enjoy all of us crowding around the computer and looking at the letters.

I'm still trying to decide what method we will use when homeschooling. It is becoming a little obvious that I need more structure in our days and I'd like to follow a curriculum.

I've read Classical Education, which I'm intrigued by and think will work well with my younger child when his time comes. Classical starts first grade with a reading child...and I'm just not sure she'll be there yet.

My daughter is a little more artsy and I could see her resisting Classical...so I'm also looking into Oak Meadow for her. (Is it possible to do Classical for one and something such as Oak Meadow for another?)

The only problem?? Oak Meadow has the child learning letters in first grade!



Time always flies for me so I typically have to start preparing in advance just to get anything done--- I really hate having to make an on the spot decision.

But....I feel like if we do Classical, there's a chance she's going to be behind on the reading but if we do something such as Oak Meadow...she'll be bored with letters.

She's a tough cookie and I know she'll learn in her own time (I'm assuming within a year or so), but I'm feeling a bit confused.

What have you done if your child didn't match with the reading level for your curric?

[Bird Girl]

Remember that The Well-Trained Mind recommends notebook pages for first graders that consist of a picture and a copied sentence or so; there's no requirement that the child be able to write independently. Most reading is done by the parent, aloud to the child, with plenty of opportunity for coloring, drawing, or other kinds of artistic expression. The parent begins written work very simply with copywork and oral narrations. You can add a phonics program with a written componant if you wish, or use something like The Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading, which is oral, not written.

I would not worry about being "behind" in a classical curriculum. As long as you, the parent, does not experience loss of voice then children at any stage along the path to reading and writing can participate.

[Savoir Faire]

Ok good. Unfortunately, every time I get a cold/sinus issues, it turns into bronchitis and a nasty cough...which gives me a loss of voice.

I'm just getting mine back right now!!

[Momma Aimee]

I, personally, would choose something that is "more challangeing" rather n than "too easy" .

that is -- i would choose one with more reading -- with the idea that i (the arent) could do all the reading -- (or most of the reading) ..

rather than the "just learning the letters"

I would not want to have DD bored ..

[pigpokey]

Surely the literature they want read to or read by the children in a Classical Curriculum would be available on audiobook? (I would think could be done in the car?) Even as you are not going to approach her about reading lessons between now and next August, you may find she is reading by then; you don't need to assume you need to teach it.

An unschooler I know has been very happy with the Leap Frog Letter and Word Factory videos. Her child loved them and figured out a lot of reading from that.

I personally don't think you would have as nice a lifestyle trying to follow two separate boxed curriculums at this age when they are so hands on. Mine are 15.5 months apart and we do school together (not from a box) and of course I tweak it to match them in k-1. I think you will find it stressful to get everything in. I think when they're older and they do more work on their own, it will be easier to do that.

What appeals to you about full curriculums?

I do not use one at this point because I don't think it will be efficient for my children. I like to get in, get out, and approach each learning goal with the minimum workload necessary to get to true mastery. My feelings about boxed curriculums are that -- (1) for the things they learn easily, I will just throw away expensive materials I don't need; (2) for the things that are hard for them, they will finish the unit, not have true mastery, but insist to me that they can move on because they've finished the unit (I will have more rigorous requirements than the unit) and (3) they will have the children spending time on learning goal X but I would judge that learning goal X is probably not relevant and want them working on learning goal Y but there is not time.

So we bang out school every day without a curriculum, but with the support of lots of free math drill sheets, McGuffey's readers, kids books a plenty, scratch paper and a magna doodle.

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

Surely the literature they want read to or read by the children in a Classical Curriculum would be available on audiobook? (I would think could be done in the car?) Even as you are not going to approach her about reading lessons between now and next August, you may find she is reading by then; you don't need to assume you need to teach it.

An unschooler I know has been very happy with the Leap Frog Letter and Word Factory videos. Her child loved them and figured out a lot of reading from that.

I personally don't think you would have as nice a lifestyle trying to follow two separate boxed curriculums at this age when they are so hands on. Mine are 15.5 months apart and we do school together (not from a box) and of course I tweak it to match them in k-1. I think you will find it stressful to get everything in. I think when they're older and they do more work on their own, it will be easier to do that.

What appeals to you about full curriculums?

I do not use one at this point because I don't think it will be efficient for my children. I like to get in, get out, and approach each learning goal with the minimum workload necessary to get to true mastery. My feelings about boxed curriculums are that -- (1) for the things they learn easily, I will just throw away expensive materials I don't need; (2) for the things that are hard for them, they will finish the unit, not have true mastery, but insist to me that they can move on because they've finished the unit (I will have more rigorous requirements than the unit) and (3) they will have the children spending time on learning goal X but I would judge that learning goal X is probably not relevant and want them working on learning goal Y but there is not time.

So we bang out school every day without a curriculum, but with the support of lots of free math drill sheets, McGuffey's readers, kids books a plenty, scratch paper and a magna doodle.

Well Trained Mind isn't a boxed curriculum- it's a guide with multiple suggested curricula for each subject area that the parent chooses them self. I don't really understand the objections listed in context of that- we are following it and my DD1 is one level in LA, another in math- and we're moving forward in Jan, not the new year, and a totally different level for history and science. Nothing comes together- nothing is tied to doing it all at once. You can work at their pace in each subject.

[Satori]

Its really going to depend, OM and WTM are radically different programs. OM is very laid back and great for a kid who needs a slow late start imo. WTM is a much more aggressive demanding program, you don't get much more aggressive then WTM as far as I know. Yes there expected to be doing basic reading when starting in 1st but thats no more then whats expected at our local B&M school. Here they can and will hold a child back who isn't reading level 1-2 early readers by the end of kindy and there expected to be able to read there text books by the end of 1st without a problem. Some kids don't get it until later, my dd didn't, she was 8 when it finally clicked but the public schools had a total cow that she wasn't reading chapter books at 8. She's 9 and just this week she's gotten into reading (all hail the 1984 Transformers cartoons story books!). Point is, take what works for you and throw out the rest. I still read 99% of the material to dd for the sake of speed.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by Satori

Its really going to depend, OM and WTM are radically different programs. OM is very laid back and great for a kid who needs a slow late start imo. WTM is a much more aggressive demanding program, you don't get much more aggressive then WTM as far as I know. Yes there expected to be doing basic reading when starting in 1st but thats no more then whats expected at our local B&M school. Here they can and will hold a child back who isn't reading level 1-2 early readers by the end of kindy and there expected to be able to read there text books by the end of 1st without a problem. Some kids don't get it until later, my dd didn't, she was 8 when it finally clicked but the public schools had a total cow that she wasn't reading chapter books at 8. She's 9 and just this week she's gotten into reading (all hail the 1984 Transformers cartoons story books!). Point is, take what works for you and throw out the rest. I still read 99% of the material to dd for the sake of speed.

One thing i like about TWM -- which is the path we plan to follow -- is that while it does have an expectation of reading and writting in 1st ....just like the public schools here .... it is very doable for the parent to read, and for the writting to be skipped / pushed back for a year / modified.

I like that it IS as demanding plan, rigourous. but also flexiable -- being jsut a plan / path and not a box -- so the parents can use it.

I don't know that DS1 will be reading or writting by "first grade" but if he is not i don't want him to miss out of the expoure to the information and expereince.

Just me

Aimee

[MamaMonica]

In my experience, OM doesn't work well if your child is an early reader at the K and first grade levels. You may be able to make it work but it would be easier just to use something else.

[Savoir Faire]

Regarding the need for a curic: I wish I could explain my mind to you without just throwing my hands in the air, waving them around and saying something about sparkly rainbows.

I'm the type of person that needs pretty rigid structure (ADD), though I often have troubles following it.

I couldn't have two more different children, though they are close in age. My daughter is more stubborn, definitely a "my way or the highway" type kid. Again, I wish I could explain her to people-- but it is just hard. She has had some sensory issues and she is definitely a huge challenge to parent at times. That was why we ended up stopping formal kindy-- it was just too much to deal with right now and honestly, I don't want to fight with her on everything.

Her brother is much easier, though he is an extremely determinded little sucker! I've always said he is much more "typical" of a child-- the issues we have with him are much more in line with other people than those we have with her.

She wants to be a zookeeper-- I could totally see her being the lady who teaches elephants to paint. He? He wants to be a "shooter guy;" I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at West Point or somewhere-- he's definitely on his way to engineering, just like my husband's entire family.

I know classical probably wouldn't work for her and OM wouldn't work for HIM! And being eccletic probably won't work for me because of my personality type.

I guess we'll see how she's doing come May. She's only wanting to look at the letter pages on Starfall (which she already knows). She has declared her BOB books (which we never push on her)-- "dumb." It wouldn't surprise me if she has some sort of learning disability-- call it mother's intuition, but I just feel like something is a bit off there.

Can't this just be easy for once?

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Regarding the need for a curic: I wish I could explain my mind to you without just throwing my hands in the air, waving them around and saying something about sparkly rainbows.

I'm the type of person that needs pretty rigid structure (ADD), though I often have troubles following it.

I couldn't have two more different children, though they are close in age. My daughter is more stubborn, definitely a "my way or the highway" type kid. Again, I wish I could explain her to people-- but it is just hard. She has had some sensory issues and she is definitely a huge challenge to parent at times. That was why we ended up stopping formal kindy-- it was just too much to deal with right now and honestly, I don't want to fight with her on everything.

Her brother is much easier, though he is an extremely determinded little sucker! I've always said he is much more "typical" of a child-- the issues we have with him are much more in line with other people than those we have with her.

She wants to be a zookeeper-- I could totally see her being the lady who teaches elephants to paint. He? He wants to be a "shooter guy;" I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at West Point or somewhere-- he's definitely on his way to engineering, just like my husband's entire family.

I know classical probably wouldn't work for her and OM wouldn't work for HIM! And being eccletic probably won't work for me because of my personality type.

I guess we'll see how she's doing come May. She's only wanting to look at the letter pages on Starfall (which she already knows). She has declared her BOB books (which we never push on her)-- "dumb." It wouldn't surprise me if she has some sort of learning disability-- call it mother's intuition, but I just feel like something is a bit off there.

Can't this just be easy for once?

mama. I wouldn't leap to what will or won't work in the future- just what does and doesn't work now. Spend this time learning about each other and how to work together- that's long term more important then what age you learn to read at and if you are classical or Waldorfy.

[LucyRev]

My DD is 6. She'll be 7 in Feb. I pulled her from kindy last February. Your description of your daughter sounds very much like mine! Mild sensory issues, stubborn, loves animals, doesn't want us to teach her anything...she must discover it all on her own. Bob Books were totally "for babies" until she actually could read them on her own...and then she devoured them. She is very creative & artistic, and sensitive to other people's energy. Have you read about right brained learners? My girl seems to be one, and reading about them has helped.

I also wanted something to follow. I thought I wanted a box curriculum, but now I'm glad I didn't get one. We piece things together as we need. I love the idea of unschooling, but I get lazy and easily distracted and honestly, following up on everything she wants to do is exhausting.

I got a subscription to ReadingEggs.com, she played on Starfall, and after she had all the letter sounds down, we did the Really Reading program that is free from Tanglewood. I liked it because it covered only the bare minimum, so she didn't get bored. It had just enough review, but wasn't overwhelming drill. She sits on my lap to do the lessons and doodles on the page the whole time. Drives me insane, but works for her! We just finished it, so now we'll probably do Progressive Phonics. It is also free.
She used to dictate stories to me, but now she can write them by herself. It is amazing how far she has come in one year! Spelling is invented, but that's okay. The best thing is how excited she is about reading/writing. When she was in school, it was very negative.

I would spend a month or two just playing around. Follow her interests and pay attention to *how* she learns best and then work around that.

I have a couple units of Moving Beyond The Page that I got from a friend. I like them, but wouldn't pay for them new. Some of it just seemed like useless busy work, but some of it has been really fun and sparked more project ideas.

I bought RightStart Math, thinking it would be perfect, but my DD hated it. It was the worst part of our day. It called for too much direct teaching and the manipulatives were too distracting. She just wanted to build stuff out of the sticks and tiles and shake the abacus to make music. Now we use Miquon with cuisenaire rods and it's going much better. It's also a ton cheaper.

We've been reading aloud from chapter books and the Core Knowledge "What Your First Grader Needs to Know" book for history and other stuff. I don't feel like I need to follow all these things exactly, but I like having them there. We watch a lot of educational videos, think of something to research, read, observe, & make charts about that thing, write stories, etc. There are posters, maps, charts and art all over the walls. We are usually pushing the max checkout limit at the library, but it is fun.

My friend thinks WinterPromise Animal Worlds would be a great fit, but I haven't looked into it enough.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Regarding the need for a curic: I wish I could explain my mind to you without just throwing my hands in the air, waving them around and saying something about sparkly rainbows.

I'm the type of person that needs pretty rigid structure (ADD), though I often have troubles following it.

I couldn't have two more different children, though they are close in age. My daughter is more stubborn, definitely a "my way or the highway" type kid. Again, I wish I could explain her to people-- but it is just hard. She has had some sensory issues and she is definitely a huge challenge to parent at times. That was why we ended up stopping formal kindy-- it was just too much to deal with right now and honestly, I don't want to fight with her on everything.

Her brother is much easier, though he is an extremely determinded little sucker! I've always said he is much more "typical" of a child-- the issues we have with him are much more in line with other people than those we have with her.

She wants to be a zookeeper-- I could totally see her being the lady who teaches elephants to paint. He? He wants to be a "shooter guy;" I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at West Point or somewhere-- he's definitely on his way to engineering, just like my husband's entire family.

I know classical probably wouldn't work for her and OM wouldn't work for HIM! And being eccletic probably won't work for me because of my personality type.

I guess we'll see how she's doing come May. She's only wanting to look at the letter pages on Starfall (which she already knows). She has declared her BOB books (which we never push on her)-- "dumb." It wouldn't surprise me if she has some sort of learning disability-- call it mother's intuition, but I just feel like something is a bit off there.

Can't this just be easy for once?

I hear you

I don't know all the options --- but what about something not quite Classical and something not OM ... there are a lot of other things out there.

Also, you could see about having her tested. She seems to be resisting -- maybe to save face?

[Savoir Faire]

My Mama's intuition has always been pretty strong with her...I was just wondering today about going about testing.

She'll resist that, too!!!

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

My Mama's intuition has always been pretty strong with her...I was just wondering today about going about testing.

She'll resist that, too!!!

the younger you do it the more like play it will be.

she may resist, but -- shrug -- you gotta try something -- (IMO anyway)

i would -- if she was my DD -- really like to know if this is behavior / 'tude / personality or if it is a LD / challange ....

I fear my older boy is going to be like this too --

[pigpokey]

Well, I think it is possible though to not used a boxed curriculum in K-1 and still have a pretty good structure that is easy to follow. Our daily plan for days the kids have homeschool in K-1 is, at a minimum, do 1 reading block a day and 1 math block. So if we don't have anything better for them to read to me (if DD has to learn lyrics or a script, we read that; if DS wants to tackle some book he's keen on, we do that), we go to the reading "curriculum" and pick up where we left off, and do a math lesson where we left off. My materials cost is very minimal.

We do participate in a lot of activities as part of their overall learning plan, and so I am delegating quite a bit. That cost is quite high.

[blessedmum]

I have two boys 6&7 (K&1) They are night and day like yours- I am not a workbook person, but DS 7 is. So, I found that it works best if we do Enki/waldorf materials and out loud reading in the morning. After quiet time in the afternoon they do workbook type learning.
I figure this way they both get what they need and learn to stretch too.