Animals vs. Children - Page 2

[BrittneyMarie]

Humans are a very selfish animal.

[Jane91]

I think it's unlikely that most animals have a sense of altrusim. To the extent that they sacrifice for others, I believe most of that behavior is pack or group based (where survival of the group ensures self-survival).

[Lilly Milly]

Yeah, unlike most animals, human babies are designed/evolved (whatever your beliefs) to need more than a just mother, but a community/tribe or at least family of people. Humans can also survive/thrive even with a substitute mother. I think there are a few other pack animals that do this (wolves?) but I don't think it's common in the animal world.

So, our attachment being less strong initially than most animals is a tradeoff with our infants being able to survive/thrive even without Mother. Our attachment has to be nutured rather than being purely instinctive. The good news is that Daddy, Granma, the Wet Nurse, etc can also form an attachment to an infant.

[SamiPolizzi]

My sister and I were just talking about this the other day.
She's fostering a litter of kittens and the kitten formula she had to feed them was called "Kitten Milk Replacer" and it said right on the can how important it is for a kitten to get it's mother's milk.

I can't help but wonder if people would put a little more thought into formula feeding if it were called "Breastmilk Replacer."

[Irishmommy]

Originally Posted by mntnmom

Horribly confused. We don't circumcise pets and livestock either, so at least we're twisted in a consistent way.

No, but we do castrate them, livestock without anesthesia too.

[Irishmommy]

Sorry, it was already covered.

[Materfamilias]

Human attachment to their babies not being as instinctive as other animals'? This does not sound right to me. I cannot imagine a more instinctive response I've ever had than when my DD was placed on my belly after she was born. Is this based on some kind of study or is it just opinion?

[Tigerchild]

I think human attachment is instinctive and STRONGER than most animals' attachments, actually.

I just think that people idealize and anthropomorphize animal attachments too much.

Humans also like to rip each other to shreds if they don't do what the other person is doing too. (though I guess with animals, they might do that as well, or their babies probably would just die if the deviated too much--we seem to be a tad bit more varied than animals in that regard)

But good grief, mothers rejecting offspring is not uncommon in the animal world (if they even care for the babies in the first place). Animal mothers kill their offspring, or allow males to kill them as well. Animals by and large are extremely "selfish" if one defines it as seeking to survive and doing what needs doing to achieve that end.

I think one of the unique things about humans is that what they lack in instinct they can often *decide* to do until they develop the feelings/instinct. That is not the case with animals. So perhaps a human mother does not feel an instant bond with their child (there are a not small number who don't). Unlike most in the animal world, that doesn't spell certain death for the baby as mom just walks away--she can push through and give herself more time to develop those feelings. If for some reason breastfeeding doesn't work out, she can share the burden with others (wet nursing) or find a technological adaptation (formula) instead of rejecting the child totally. She can find a new relationship, and not choose to allow her new mate to kill her children so that his genetic offspring can have her time and attention.

Do those things happen with humans as well? Yes, they do. And we're always surprised. I don't know why people are surprised. And I'm equally kind of befuddled that we romanticize the animal kingdom so much yet recoil in horror at our own (collective) behavior. Perhaps that's the real human difference. We are very eager to condemn our fellow humans while totally romantcizing and only believing the best of the alien. Somehow I doubt that whales and octopuses and chimpanzees sit around talking about how horrible those other whales/octopi/chimps are, but it's it heartwarming how those humans/dolphins/chickens are just so peaceful and tender and loving, I wish our species was more like that. Though...I dunno. Maybe they DO!! I guess we'll never know until we're smart enough to figure out how to really and truly 2 way communicate on a detailed level with another species.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

And I'm equally kind of befuddled that we romanticize the animal kingdom so much yet recoil in horror at our own (collective) behavior.

I agree. There is nothing romantic about how animals behave. I've been around just about every major farm animal since I can remember and have seen more atrocities from them than any human mother I've personally known. I've never seen a human mother trample her 2 day old baby because she favored nursing the other twin better and break its leg (a goat). I've never seen a human mother snap the neck of a new born baby because it was born with a deformed leg (a cat). I've never seen a human mother walk away from a newborn baby in the middle of a heat wave, ultimately leaving it to die of thirst under the blazing Australian sun (a cow). I've never seen a human mother kick a nursling in the head because she didn't want to nurse anymore (a horse). I could go on and on and on...

Animals that have instincts which are endearing to us humans who CHOOSE to carry out those same behaviors are looking at the situation through a pretty biased filter if you ask me.

Comparing parental choices to basic (though endearing) animal instincts is an over simplification and totally ignorant of the fact that even though queen cats will go to a squealing kitten, humans still have a much, much, much, MUCH lower infant mortality rate than animals who are left to rare their young without the interference of humans.

CIO or not, I don't think humans are all that "bad" for weaning a 6 month old as long as they don't do it like horses and repeatedly kick at and run from their babies. And when we don't want to sleep with our children anymore, if the worst we do is simply go sit in another room, we're being far gentler than just about any animal species I can think of.

I think it all comes down to choice and the fact that humans have free will. Animals don't have the ability to rationalize decisions to obtain a desired outcome (or I should say, certainly don't come close to this on a human scale, even primate's fall short in decision making abilities compared to humans).

Humans, for the most part, do what they're taught, what has influenced them, what they've seen modeled to them, and as much as we all hate to admit it, what gets them aproval. What a human will do if they give birth on a deserted island alone with NO ONE to help them versus what they'd do if they gave birth under normal circumstances are probably pretty different. They'd have no choice to but to fight for the ability to breastfeed their baby, and keep it close at night time, etc. Under normal circumstances, there is the CHOICE to put a baby in a crib in another room, the CHOICE to feed it formula, the CHOICE to take it to a doctor to be circumsized. There is difference between living for survival, and living for convenience. Animals don't understand the concept of living for convenience.

If a cat is raised in a house and has a litter of kittens, it's likely to do almost exactly the same things as if it were a feral cat living away from humans. Cats do not know they can abandon a baby kitten and a human will feed it milk from a dropper, let alone make the decision to go through with that based on circumstances or a desire to make life more convenient.

It all comes down to choice. Humans have it, animals don't. They're pretty linear by comparison.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

I agree. There is nothing romantic about how animals behave. I've been around just about every major farm animal since I can remember and have seen more atrocities from them than any human mother I've personally known. I've never seen a human mother trample her 2 day old baby because she favored nursing the other twin better and break its leg (a goat). I've never seen a human mother snap the neck of a new born baby because it was born with a deformed leg (a cat). I've never seen a human mother walk away from a newborn baby in the middle of a heat wave, ultimately leaving it to die of thirst under the blazing Australian sun (a cow). I've never seen a human mother kick a nursling in the head because she didn't want to nurse anymore (a horse). I could go on and on and on...

I agree, though I'm quoting the above post because I am pretty sure that some human probably HAS done all the above somewhere this year. And ironically, we would probably call her evil and "unnatural".

I think that's why people romanticizing animal behavior really bugs me so much. Not that I think that humans should feel free to do the above, it's horrific. But I don't see the sense in castigating human mothers for things FAR less drastic, while pretending that animals do so much better.

[nudhistbudhist]

Here's the interesting part though... Animals instinctively know when something is wrong with their newborn babies, and often chose to end its life... Not always, but often. No one wants to talk about it, I'm sure, but realisticly this instinct has ensured that these newborns dont grow up and breed and pass these issues on to the next generation, thereby ensuring the genetic integrity of the species. Animals (other than MOST humans) are still evolving, still in tune with the laws of nature.

Humans, on the other hand, have stopped "evolving" and instead of adapting to the changing environment, we change and adapt the environment to suit us, to a FAR greater degree than any other species. We have changed our environmet in such a way that we can care for most of those born with physical problems, though we too chose to "terminate" some pregnancies, or remove life support for certain types of physical problems. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but our species does it too, and most of the time, it is done out of compassion for the preconcieved suffering that the young one will have to endure. I dont see it being that different than animals. We are animals too, after all! And animals do have different personalities just as we do, and that has a lot to do with the choices that animals make. They do make choices! We have a goat that will always adopt goat babies that were either rejected or whose mother has died. I know a human mother like that too! And I have a friend who has had three abortions (rather than using birth control, it seems), and a goat that repeatedly tries to eat pine trees when pregnant (causing abortion). I think the main reason people try to keep themselves in a seperate category from "animals" is because of the way we treat animals in this day and age. If we respected them as we do ourselves, we would have to stop doing a LOT of things that make our lives more convenient.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by nudhistbudhist

If we respected them as we do ourselves, we would have to stop doing a LOT of things that make our lives more convenient.

Like what?

ETA: from the perspective of me not thinking that animals are particularly respectful of other animals and the environment...and human beings do not really respect themselves either. As individuals, maybe. But we treat other humans horribly for things that are, in the long view, insignficant.

[Swan3]

Funny, I was just thinking of this question at my ILs today. They are very stoic people and border on the "children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard" mentality. It was the house of "no" today for our three year old, but also of great expectations for how she should relate to the dog they're sitting (which they didn't tell us about beforehand). We were warned that the dog could bite, but that we should forgive it because it's just a puppy....and then several hours of "she should be able to sit through dinner, not interrupt, not touch anything" ensued. I later talked about how I understood about how their puppy was learning and a "toddler" and that DD should get the same understanding and patience. I'm thankful for that dog and it's crazy behaviour today...I think it finally clicked for them!!! She's NOT an ADULT!