Messianic vs. Messianic-Jew?

[TzippityDoulah]

I'm here looking for thoughtful opinions and experiences.... not bashing I've hesitated to ask this in the past b/c it's a whole big can of worms... but I figured what the heck? bring out he worm cans!
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does anyone here consider themselves "messianic" but not "messianic jew". as in believing in being torah observant for all who wish to follow God, but NOT believing that makes them "Jew". as in I am gentile but believe that the TORAH/OT rules apply to all who wish to worship Him. and I believe Jesus was the messiah.

I guess I am looking for the right word to describe my beliefs.... and I'm not sure if messianic can truly mean both (though I know people who say it does!) I'm trying to get a wide variety of views.

I'm SO not into JFJ. it's not my thing. I'm don't believe in "proselytizing jews into Christians", but i do believe Jesus was the Messiah... I also do not think that keeping some rules makes me Jewish. nor am I really "christian" in the common sense (as I don't believe that Jesus came to start a new "religion" called Christianity, but to open up his arms to gentiles in a more personal way, while not removing his covenant to the jewish nation.) I know a few others who believe this too and call themselves messianic but not messianic jews.

I know what I believe... and i wish I didn't need a label. but unfortunately it's hard to explain to other's your beliefs and look for common fellowship with out some kinda word to describe yourself, yk? I wish I didn't ever have to explain my beliefs, but really that's not realistic.

if I said I was messianic would people truly know what I mean? or would they assume I was trying to steal some other nation's heritage (which I am not, though of course I want to better understand the heritage as to better understand the context of jesus and the Bible).

I've seen some ugly things between messianics, christians and jews. and i can see why in some ways - Jewish people viewing messianics as under-cover christians trying to sabotage their heritage, and christians views messianics as christians bound by law and not grace. and then of course some messianic sects that do wish to "save" all the jewish people by scaring them with the fires of hell...etc... I don't wish to be apart of any of that drama! (no offense)

ok that was a mouthfull... did I make any sense?

love some insight from all your sides... (especially messianics) thanks!

[cappuccinosmom]

We've known several. Some are wonderful, and some are exceedingly legalistic (not only do they try to convert Jews, but try to convert Christians as well, since in their view being messianic is the only way to be truly a Christ-follower). The congregation in our previous city split over the terms used to refer to Jesus and God.

The messianic family we became friends with was awesome though. We had many good discussions and so many hours of wonderful fellowship. I made friends with another messianic lady. I'd say she was more the JFJ type, but basically in that she would talk unendingly about Jesus no matter who she was talking to, Jewish, Christian, atheist.... She just couldn't stop herself, and she was never mean or nasty about it. She's one of those people who are sooooo nice, but you dread meeting them if you're in a hurry because you know a 5 minute chat is simply not possible and you'll be stuck for twice that or longer.

[cappuccinosmom]

Do you really need a label, though?

I just tell people (who ask because of my covering) we float around in evangelical circles but don't quite fit anywhere. Always gets a laugh.

[TzippityDoulah]

nope i dont always need a label. i sure dont need one for my own personal peice of mind. but it sure is nice to have a desriptive word to share with other who are interested in your views.

i'm not into big evangelism, but i find since i'm not people often ask me what i am lol


thanks for your reply

[TzippityDoulah]

p/.s. if you dont mind my asking what kinda hurch do attend? (this may be a bit irrelevant...)

[zinemama]

That sounds like a tough row to hoe.

I think that most people who hear "messianic" do think Messianic Jew. And yeah, Jews roll our eyes at that, since those folks are Christian.

But you're not calling yourself a Jew at all, which is great. On the other hand, you consider Jesus the messiah of the Jews (correct?) and want to observe some Jewish ritual and tradition, i.e. you want to keep some observances of a religious group which you feel didn't recognize its own Messiah. Which, I have to say, is confusing.

I'm not criticizing you here - religious beliefs are very personal - and can be confusing to outsiders! I'm just trying to understand your beliefs as you've described them. I would love to hear more about how you came to them.

In particular, where does the Jewish observance part come in, if you're not Jewish? Non-Jews aren't required to be Torah-observant in order to follow God or be considered followers of God (as I'm sure you know) so...how is doing that important to your belief in Jesus as the Messiah? Is it because these were his traditions, the things he did on earth? If so, how do you decide which onesto follow?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when someone says "Messianic Jew" or JFJ, it's easy to understand: Christians who observe (some) of our mitzvot while calling themselves Jews.

What you are describing is different, I can see. But conveying that difference using just one word is I think going to be, like I said, a tough row to hoe.

[TzippityDoulah]

zinemama,

yes I do think you're right about it being a tough one. unfortunately I can't just trade in my beliefs for more accommodating ones lol. I would LOVE to fit in somewhere nice and neat! oh how nice that would make me feel!!

thanks for being honest... it helps me sort things out.
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well I can try to answer your questions. I don't expect you to see it my way, but since you seemed curious perhaps I can try to be more clear. I don't think the Jewish Messiah is only the jewish messiah, but the messiah of mankind. as far as being torah observant all I can say is I don't believe it was only for jews, but anyone believing in the Jewish God (which is the only God whose "chosen people" were and are jewish.... but they aren't His only creation).

We believe Jesus came to unite Jews and gentiles. not to make them the same. He had always revealed himself to Jews, but chose to reveal himself to all of his creation in a special way. I think the problem here is where things go weird - meaning that people started thinking that meant throw our Judaism and start a new religion. But I don't think it meant that at all. He was revealing himself to all mankind which hadn't been done since well... I suppose the beginning.

hmmmm ok so maybe I'm babbling here aren't I? following torah laws is beleived by believers in Jesus to be part of our command as followers of God... not so to inherit the "chosen" status of the Jews, but to find a close relationship with God. we will never understand it completely and probably be less likely to understand it than the jews... but we that doesn't stop us from being blessed by it. (we don't have ot fully understand things from God's prospective to enjoy them, right?)

what do you mean when you ask which ones would I follow? are there a couple of sets? I'm not clear what you mean. I would aim to follow them all in the best of my ability and clarity. I admit I may fail, but i certainly aim to try... that's the best I can offer. it's a long road to get there.

Jesus was Jewish (duh of course) and he taught from a jewish prospective (of course) and so to understand him one would have to be very familiar with judaism. (I think this is where the mistake comes in of gentiles trying to be jews, without being jews which gets a big eye roll outta everyone.) Many jewish thought of Him as as heretic and apostate. But a small fraction believed Him as messiah - ala "messianic jew". they then brought it to the gentiles - "messianic gentiles" but of course that eventually went south...because the gentiles wanted to make their own religion and get away from the "law" so they tried to divide into Christians and non-christians. set up a bunch of regs and rules and started to try to invade the jewish -messianic belief and convert them to christianity. (which is not God-ordained)

for this reason I feel I am neither Jew nor Christian really. *shrug*
I'm not comfortable with either label.

so.... what's the word for that one? lol

(....I'm not saying i have it all together, either. but I also can't say I don't have anything right just b/c my opinion's not popular. I'm not looking to start or join a movement! just trying to seek after God. I'm sure I'm not by any means incredibly enlightened.)

[genifer]

amazing thread! subbing.

eta...

Non-Jews aren't required to be Torah-observant in order to follow God or be considered followers of God (as I'm sure you know) so...how is doing that important to your belief in Jesus as the Messiah? Is it because these were his traditions, the things he did on earth? If so, how do you decide which onesto follow?

ok, first of all ... exactly. We arent required even in our christian faith to observe Jewish 'law' as laid out in scripture. However, doing so, or atleast having an understanding of what it is like being jewish opens up a whole new perspective to our faith. One women I met put it this way Jewish Christians (which is not an oxymoron) have the best of both worlds, from our perspective. I almost from a place of envy agree. We, as Christians, see Jesus Christ, or Jesus the Messiah, as fulfilling the entire law. So observing the Law and biblical jewish traditions/practices opens up a greater understanding that WE, as gentiles CANNOT, imho, understand fully... probably ever, but certainly not without observing/understanding the 'shadows' of our Christ, Lord, Messiah. (We see, what we call OT, the Law as a shadow of Jesus and what he is to accomplish in His earthly ministry... and His continued ministry in the work of the Holy Spirit. If Im honest, I think I long to understand things from a jewish perspective. Im not jewish and do not want to pretend to be, but I know I long to understand Jesus Christ from a Jewish perspective. I also think that as a non-jew and a christian, I am free to take my time in learning the deep meaning of this stuff. I have an eternity in fact. I take it one step at a time. What I do is simply read the bible, I LOVE the Old Testament, Im going thru genesis with my kids at the mo. For me, its not what *I* take from it, as if my faith is just personal to me alone. My faith is personal to me and God and He teaches me thru it about HIM, His plan for His people, how all people fit into His eternal plan and so forth.

Hope that made sense.

eta again...

we will never understand it completely and probably be less likely to understand it than the jews...

I wrote what I wrote before I went to read what you wrote, lol. Also, why do you find it uncomfortable calling yourself a christian. I am SO proud to call myself one. The word 'Christian' means 'Little-Christ', as in follower, or disciple of Jesus Christ. It was, as to my understanding, meant to be a derogative term at first.

I also have some 'deep thoughts' (lol) on what you said about how Christianity 'broke' from judaism, and but that is for another thread.

Happy Christmas everyone!!!!!

[lerlerler]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

does anyone here consider themselves "messianic" but not "messianic jew". as in believing in being torah observant for all who wish to follow God, but NOT believing that makes them "Jew". as in I am gentile but believe that the TORAH/OT rules apply to all who wish to worship Him. and I believe Jesus was the messiah.!

OK, take this with a grain of salt from a Jewish chick who obviously has a limited understanding of the nuances of Christianity....

I (think I) get that you believe that Jesus had a different message for a differing subset of peoples than a more "traditional" Christian believes. But what is bolded above makes me wonder if there is an adjective to be added to the word "Christian" instead of one to be created from scratch....

Universalist Christian? hmm.. maybe not..

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by lerlerler

Is that fair of me? Nope... but that would be my first thought

i don't think it's a matter of fair. if that is the only thing you ever heard of with the word messianic it's not weird to assume that's what it meant.

unaversalist? yeah I guess that would cover some of it... but not really all of it. and not a great association there either... (IMO)

I'm not shedding the word "christian" to be cool or anything like that. really, so not that. I'm far from cool. I'm a boring old mom who does little but stay home all day, homeschool. cook food, and read a lot. that's about it. so please (please!) don't confuse me for some wannabe newager who is embracing all religions, b/c that aint it atvall.

[genifer]

HennyPenny, I would never assume such a thing. For me, its wondering how the entire bible and my relationship with God makes me who I am. Im on a very similar journey. I wanted to distance myself from mainstream christianity but I cant go too far, imo without straying into some dangerous territory. And you know what, this is from me to you, its not about 'religion' or even faith. Its about a relationship with our creator, and *I* believe that involves salvation, first of all, then from there... WHO KNOWS where God is going to take us. So long as we dont lose our first Love, Christ, follow Him in how he teaches you.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

well I can try to answer your questions. I don't expect you to see it my way, but since you seemed curious perhaps I can try to be more clear. I don't think the Jewish Messiah is only the jewish messiah, but the messiah of mankind. as far as being torah observant all I can say is I don't believe it was only for jews, but anyone believing in the Jewish God (which is the only God whose "chosen people" were and are jewish.... but they aren't His only creation).

I'm just going to address the bolded part of what you said for now, since time is limited.

I have to say, I'm more confused than ever! If you believe Jesus was the messiah of all humanity, that would make you a Christian, right? So I'm confused about why you don't consider yourself one.

I'm also not seeing how you arrive at the notion that the Torah wasn't meant just for the Jews, when that's what God says in the Bible and according to all Jewish writings. (Of course I'm not excluding from Judaism anyone not descended from those original Jews; there have been converts through history - but you aren't setting out to be one, as you've said).

The Hebrew Scriptures say that God gave the Torah to the Jews. God told the Jews these mitzvot were for them to follow. God said that the mitzvot were for these particular people (but never denied that there were plenty of other peoples around, with their own gods - in fact God specifically forbade us to worship those other gods).

And, knowing this (as I'm sure you do), you've decided for yourself that what God said was wrong. That the Torah is actually for people like you, who don't choose to join the Jewish people, but simply believe that the God who gave us the Torah exists. Is that right? And if so, how did you come up with that?

Again, I'm not criticizing, just trying to see where you're coming from and why. And I'm certainly not saying that non-Jews can't take plenty of meaning from the Torah - I find meaning in the books of other faiths. But it seems to me that that's not exactly what you are saying.

[TzippityDoulah]

Zinemama,

that's not exactly what I'm saying... no. firstly yes I am "christian" if you mean following the teachings of Jesus Christ, I'm not Christian in the sense that's commonly meant - a religion which has tried to do away with the jew and taken the torah for their own. Christianity isn't a name given by God - it's a name people gave a religion they created. do you see what I mean? I'm not anti-christian... I'm just not really wishing to adopt a purely man-made name when I think it distracts from the real point of following God. want to follow God no matter what name that is.

that's about as clear as I can be on that. it's pretty cut and dry I think. it's not a popular belief and probably not often heard by many... but it's common enough for sure.

and no no I didn't decide this on my own whatsoever. no way! who am I to decide this? yikes. no I dn't have a big head here just sitting and deciding what is truth and what isn't... or what the torah is for etc ect. I wouldn't do that... that's not my place to decide such things. (thank God!)

I believe that's what Jesus said. here is the divide. you as jewish believe (I'm assuming!) Jesus was either not real, a heretic, or made to be soemthing he never claimed to be. I believe He was messiah and that he opened up a special revelation to all people (je, gentile... whatever). HE says this, not me. that's common Christian belief of course.

maybe i can try to have you see things from my side of the world (as i'm syrely trying to see things from the jewish perspetive - which is why i'm hear asking these questions.)
I realize you do not agree that Jesus was Messiah so you throw the entire notion out... but let's say (for arguments sake only) you believed he was messiah and you were not jewish. (I know, I know... just imagine it). If you took hold of his teachings and longed to know God as a gentile. A jewish messiah opens up to you and accepts you in a way not previously accepted. sure we've always been able to commune with God as human beings, but outside of the jewish faith there wasn't a fellowship or community to it. jesus offered us this community. however jewish people angrily say we're trying to steal what is theirs and turn it upside down. (of course, no denying, some people are). what would you think? you believe this messiah, but now you are in disharmony with the jewish nation who doesn't wish to accept you as an extended family. and you know you can't turn yoru back on what you believe... so you're just forever stuck in the middle with everyone angry at you. and everyone telling you to pick a side - either be a christian or be a jew. but you're neither... really. certainly not jew, and not exactly christian. and dang you're lonely and sick of being misunderstood! lol

still, you don't agree with me or my beliefs... but do you see kinda what i am getting at i hope.

why am i not converting to judaism? b/ci believe in Jesus as Messiah. otherwise i would.. (pesky little difference lol)


so yea, i'm opting to be really transparent here and it isn't easy for me. even if i'm a crazy old lady i still have feelings heh so this is kinda difficult for me to spill it all out here for people to pick apart. but i think it's important, so I am.

sometimes I wis I could just "pick" a religion where everyone accept everyone.... but I can't pick what my heart feels is truth yk?

[lerlerler]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

Zinemama,

, I'm not Christian in the sense that's commonly meant - a religion which has tried to do away with the jew and taken the torah for their own. ?

Hmmm.. again confused Jew here. I, personally, never heard that the basis of Christianity was to do away with me and take the Torah (although many Christians and non-Christians alike pervert their religion and would happily get rid of us entirely) so this statement really confuses me.

Do Christians believe they "get it" and we don't? Sure, I guess you could argue that.

But I thought Christianity taught that the "Old Testament" was somewhat null and void - not something to be "taken"...

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by lerlerler

Hmmm.. again confused Jew here. I, personally, never heard that the basis of Christianity was to do away with me and take the Torah (although many Christians and non-Christians alike pervert their religion and would happily get rid of us entirely) so this statement really confuses me.

Do Christians believe they "get it" and we don't? Sure, I guess you could argue that.

But I thought Christianity taught that the "Old Testament" was somewhat null and void - not something to be "taken"...

not all christianity think the OT is null and void. how could it be? it's the basis for the new. I'm not sure what you mean....??

as far as your confusion - would you be lest confused at me being a christian anyhow? would you not disagree with thet regardless? b/c if so then I don't think I'm going to be able to clear it up for you anymore than I have. ?

p.s. i dont mean do away with YOU... do away with judaism. sorry for that misundertanding

[lerlerler]

I have heard from many sources this:

Question: "Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?"

Answer: The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

from: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-law.html

but again, YMMV!! That's just what MY friends have told me...

[TzippityDoulah]

that is *one* way of looking at it. (If I'm not mistaken Judaism has different ways of looking at different things too, right?) that doesn't speak for all christianity (of followers of Christ etc)

christians foten have what is considered the "elevated new testament". it's not something I agree with... but it is a belief. that basically whatever isn't okayed in the next testament is thrown out from the old (law).

there is alos a belief that whatever is not changed or condemned in in the NT is kept.

if it kept the belief would be that God has offered this way of life to gentiles as well as jews. He didn't t the time he gave the law to Moses, (though he did give humanity laws through Noah)

anyhow... I'm so not trying to argue semantic.... just explaining different ways of thought.

[TzippityDoulah]

ok I'm back.... AGAIN I'm just a whilrwind of thought so I couldn't sleep. I was thinking and rethinking what I wrote and what others wrote and I have some more i wanna add (luck you all! lol)

firstly i think it's coming off (no matter how much I keep trying to steer it away from this) that I'm trying to be super edgy-cool and come up with a new sect of christianity. I'm not putting other Christian's down either. nothing like that... what I am tyring to to get at is I'm trying to put away anything but what GOD says and what GOD wants and starting my foundation on that and building from there. i think we can find God in many religions if we look hard enough. and I think that sometimes we just use the tools and culture we have with which to find him - I don't have issue with that. but sometimes it's good to look beyond the people around us and to start seeking God on a more personal (deeply personal) way. not throwing out other's experiences or traditions, just seeking the meaning behind the traditions and experiences.

I believe in Messiah Jesus so that makes me lumped into "Christianity". but I don't believe many common Christians doctrine, such as needed to say a "sinner's prayer", that only Christians will be saved from hell, that we even know what hell is, that everyone needs ot be "christian"... etc. and yet? I am very conservative - I headcover, wear modest dress, don't have a TV feed, and believe God has given us strong moral codes to uphold. I'm not a "liberal Christian" by definition. I'm just a person that believes in the bible, OT and NT. and I wish to live it out in my life. and if I didn't feel like I had to have a good way to explain that to people (when they ask me about my thoughts on God) I really wouldn't worry much about it.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm always gonna look like some fringe lunatic. *sigh* I so don't want to. but i can't deny how I feel either. oh well. I guess i came here hoping someone would understand and encourage me on my oath to seeking God. but instead I'm met with people being confused by me. it's very confusing. But... I guess that's ok right? because God knows my heart and that's truly all that really matters when all is said and done (though I admit that's hard for me to swallow.)

[genifer]

HennyPenny. funnily enough, I, being a gentile, do understand. And I do not believe you are a fringe lunatic. I will pm you with a link to a forum where there are all kinds of christians and messianic jews who can answer your questions. Have patience tho, there may be a bit of sifting thru the posts where you are misunderstood and such but I believe you will get to a greater understanding in the end. Fwiw, I mentioned already that I am interested in the same questions. We both know Jesus Christ as THE Messiah, but we dont understand it all from the Jewish perspective. Knowing and understanding OT law and traditions, observations and holy days would open up a greater understanding of who God is, who Jesus is (as we believe they are One, as Isaiah 9:6 puts it).


Hugs to you.

[TzippityDoulah]

thanks Genifer